February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Norbert Hartl

Am 23.02.2012 um 08:27 schrieb "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > Stef, > > Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). > Bill, is your real test to use sixx on 1.4? If you just want to test 1.4 then export your data with fuel from an 1.3 image and back into a 1.4 one. This should be pretty easy. Norbert > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls) > > On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > >> >> Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: >> >>> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. >> >> What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. >> And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. > > Exactly. > Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. > I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) > and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. > > Stef >

Feb. 23, 2012

[Pharo-project] [update 1.4] #14348

by Marcus Denker

14348 ----- Issue 5309: StartupPreferences new feature http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5309 Issue 5188: Fast Drag doesn't work anymore http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5188 Issue 5349: remove findOriginalChangeSet http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5349 -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Feb. 23, 2012

[Pharo-project] Ecompletion/OCompletion

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Sadly we cannot have the two together. So I started to do an analysis of the situation. OCompletion includes physically ECompletion. So what I plan to do in the coming months is: - make ECompletion working in 1.4 (Alain I need your help with caret, isCaretBehindChar, selectionPosition:, wordAtCaret) - analyze the extensions made by each package and move the extension that make sense into their respective packages For example E/OCompletion extends Shout with some simple queries, String and other so I will make a list of changes that we should move to the right places. - understand how we can make sure that OCompletion does not just include the code of ECompletion. - understand how to extend Ecompletion to get OCompletion and both working. Stef

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, Feedback, not whining (as some might claim): this snippet illustrates my frustration with Metacello. Note that ConfigurationOfXMLSupport (at least in the past) requires #loadDefault vs. #load. It would be *really* nice to have ONE incantation that always gets latest stable releases. I'm trying to load a LOT of stuff, so having a stable infrastructure would be helpful. Just saying... It might be too idealistic, but the current situation has me capturing things that *appear* correct and might not be (or quickly turn obsolete). Ultimately, we probably need real packages. Thanks for Pharo! Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:41 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) Stef, >From my "throw-away" 1.4 image: Gofer new squeaksource: 'XMLSupport'; package: 'ConfigurationOfXMLSupport'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfXMLSupport) perform: #loadDefault. #( 'SIXX-Core' 'SIXX-Examples' 'SIXX-InOut-Common' 'SIXX-InOut-Squeak' 'SIXX-ParserAdapter' 'SIXX-Squeak' 'SIXX-Test' ) do:[ :each | self loadLatestPackage:each fromSqueaksource:'SIXX'. ]. The above appears to have worked, and I *almost* wiped it out with a new attempt... Pays to look sometimes. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:27 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) Stef, Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). I will try again soon. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls) On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > > Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: > >> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. > > What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. > And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. Exactly. Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. Stef

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, >From my "throw-away" 1.4 image: Gofer new squeaksource: 'XMLSupport'; package: 'ConfigurationOfXMLSupport'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfXMLSupport) perform: #loadDefault. #( 'SIXX-Core' 'SIXX-Examples' 'SIXX-InOut-Common' 'SIXX-InOut-Squeak' 'SIXX-ParserAdapter' 'SIXX-Squeak' 'SIXX-Test' ) do:[ :each | self loadLatestPackage:each fromSqueaksource:'SIXX'. ]. The above appears to have worked, and I *almost* wiped it out with a new attempt... Pays to look sometimes. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:27 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) Stef, Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). I will try again soon. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls) On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > > Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: > >> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. > > What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. > And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. Exactly. Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. Stef

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). I will try again soon. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls) On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > > Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: > >> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. > > What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. > And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. Exactly. Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. Stef

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 22, 2012, at 10:18 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote: > Hello Sudhakar, > > I totally agree. I believe we can build the future we want. And if we don't, we deserve to get what others provide or envision for us. YES YES YES and YES > I believe we can deliver a better experience as a client, and a better developer experience as a server. I personally don't know of anything that approaches Smalltalk for a comprehensive experience. > > With appropriate funding, we can accomplish great things. And without it, we are better than most. First, we can envision things that others do not have the worldview to be able to envision. > > It always frustrates me whenever I have to restart an OS, or an app because of some software update. Ugh! Really ..., this is 2012 and we can't do better. I believe Pharo has a great future and I hope to contribute. > > And the nice thing is, that we can do web apps as well as, or better than others. We also can improve our UI abilities and do better than others there. We can cover both worlds quite well. > > Just my opinion. > > Jimmie

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 22, 2012, at 10:03 PM, Milan Mimica wrote: > On 22 February 2012 21:44, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > Pharo is an IDE. IDEs don't run on tablets. > > But open your eyes. Pharo is much more than an ide. > > Exactly. And Squeak is even more than Pharo, but more is not better. I think we should focus and there is still too many opinions of what Pharo should be. Some try to pull in OpenGL interface, some would like to improve the headless mode, some use it as a web platform. Most efforts will go to waste. Pharo cannot possibly be that much. well take what you believe is important for you and help us. For Moose and others openGL is important not to die, for coral and robot programming and server headless mode is important, for web servers are important. Nowâ¦ why an XOR? Because we DID improve headless, we DID IMPROVE servers (ZINC) we DID improve UI. Now Zinc did not felt down from the sky, sven spent time because he needed and give it to YOU so â¦ now if you do not have the time to help this is ok (not even reading a bug tracker entry means that you are really busy but not enough since you still send mails), but look at what we DID!!! Stef

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 22, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Stefan Marr wrote: > > On 22 Feb 2012, at 21:52, Frank Shearar wrote: > >> But I think such a plugin would be missing the point. What I want is >> to be able to see a lot more source on my screen than one method at a >> time. Do you remember the Whisker Browser a few years ago? It let you >> view and edit multiple methods at a time, across multiple classes. >> That was pretty neat. > > You refer to this one? http://www.fit.vutbr.cz/study/courses/OMP/public/software/sqcdrom2/Packages… I always like it. Stef > > Cool, but I like the feeling of Newspeaks' one still better (random link with screenshots: http://langexplr.blogspot.com/2009/04/writing-small-twitter-client-with.html) > > Is there actually anyone who would be interested to break with the Smalltalk's traditional approach? >

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 22, 2012, at 10:12 PM, Stefan Marr wrote: > > On 22 Feb 2012, at 21:52, Frank Shearar wrote: > >> But I think such a plugin would be missing the point. What I want is >> to be able to see a lot more source on my screen than one method at a >> time. Do you remember the Whisker Browser a few years ago? It let you >> view and edit multiple methods at a time, across multiple classes. >> That was pretty neat. > > You refer to this one? http://www.fit.vutbr.cz/study/courses/OMP/public/software/sqcdrom2/Packages… > > Cool, but I like the feeling of Newspeaks' one still better (random link with screenshots: http://langexplr.blogspot.com/2009/04/writing-small-twitter-client-with.html) > > Is there actually anyone who would be interested to break with the Smalltalk's traditional approach? we are :) This is why we are interested by Glamour because we can experiment with it a lot of new IDE ideas. but for that we should also first understand morphic and to understand morhic it is good not to have 4 lists, 5 buttons, 4 menusâ¦ with different ways to do things. > > > > > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: +32 2 629 3525 > >

Feb. 23, 2012