February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Dale Henrichs

Bill, I hear and appreciate your feedback about Metacello ... when one has a ConfigurationOf class for specifications there are temptations to leverage the fact that it is a class, we can end up with a proliferation of class-side short cut methods that do all sorts of interesting things. I'm hoping that the Metacello scripting API (which I am currently working on) will provide a more uniform way to load projects and reduce the demand for class-side shortcuts on the ConfigurationOf class ... Dale ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:49:43 PM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) | | Stef, | | Feedback, not whining (as some might claim): this snippet illustrates | my frustration with Metacello. Note that ConfigurationOfXMLSupport | (at least in the past) requires #loadDefault vs. #load. It would be | *really* nice to have ONE incantation that always gets latest stable | releases. | | I'm trying to load a LOT of stuff, so having a stable infrastructure | would be helpful. Just saying... It might be too idealistic, but | the current situation has me capturing things that *appear* correct | and might not be (or quickly turn obsolete). Ultimately, we | probably need real packages. | | Thanks for Pharo! | | Bill | | | | | ________________________________________ | From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of | Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu] | Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:41 AM | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle | experience) | | Stef, | | From my "throw-away" 1.4 image: | | Gofer new | squeaksource: 'XMLSupport'; | package: 'ConfigurationOfXMLSupport'; | load. | (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfXMLSupport) perform: | #loadDefault. | | | #( 'SIXX-Core' 'SIXX-Examples' 'SIXX-InOut-Common' | 'SIXX-InOut-Squeak' 'SIXX-ParserAdapter' | 'SIXX-Squeak' 'SIXX-Test' | ) do:[ :each | | self loadLatestPackage:each fromSqueaksource:'SIXX'. | ]. | | The above appears to have worked, and I *almost* wiped it out with a | new attempt... Pays to look sometimes. | | Bill | | ________________________________________ | From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of | Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu] | Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:27 AM | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle | experience) | | Stef, | | Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have | simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot | on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to | evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. | Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image | to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). | | I will try again soon. | | Bill | | | ________________________________________ | From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane | Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] | Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the | trolls) | | On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: | | > | > Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: | > | >> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I | >> must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear | >> that again will not work in 1.4. | > | > What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were | > working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc | > appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be | > minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward | > compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest | > the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might | > save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. | > And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is | > stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. | > So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 | > months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay | > similar for quite some time. | | Exactly. | Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour | rely a lot on UI changes. | I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not | change XML (but the XML maintainers did) | and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it | should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. | | Stef | | | |

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Norbert Hartl

Am 23.02.2012 um 10:04 schrieb Schwab,Wilhelm K: > Norbert, > > Understood about the gap. I have been periodically trying to build an newer image, always with something that does not work. Redirecting squeaksource makes it possible to think about having some success, but as a friend, Metacello as constituted is a bear to use. > > I am speaking as an end user of multiple packages (ODBC, LDAP, Citezen, Seaside). Getting all to load at the same sitting *appears* to be impossible. I don't really believe that, which is one of the reasons I keep trying. > Agreed. That is yet another gap. Some modules are slow in catching up with new image releases while other newer modules are only developed in newer images. So there is often no way to get it going beside fixing it yourself. That's the drag with open source because support is often not existant. But that is how it goes. I tend to be a bit conservative in upgrading. The developer developing in the newest image wants people to test the code. But that does not work, too. I think they need to decide. If they want to develop only the newest suff, good. If they want to have users they need think as well. Norbert > FWIW, I got close tonight, but Seaside won't load now... > > Bill > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Norbert Hartl [norbert(a)hartl.name] > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:53 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Cc: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) > > Am 23.02.2012 um 09:21 schrieb "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > >> Norbert, >> >> Thanks for the suggestion, but I really need to get things loaded so I can load an even bigger pile of code that I have written. There is also the question of how to capture all of the legacy data; it's not as easy as one might think, as some things are "in the wild." > > Well, Sixx should be fine for that. If you only use pharo than I would move to Fuel. If you encounter problems with Sixx let me know I might help herr. > >> I've really used this system, and could simply hang at 1.1.1 for a long time - I'm trying to do better than that. > > You know, Bill it is your personal decision when to spend time. If you save it now the gap grows and you have to spend it later. > > Norbert >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Norbert Hartl [norbert(a)hartl.name] >> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:07 AM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Cc: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) >> >> Am 23.02.2012 um 08:27 schrieb "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: >> >>> Stef, >>> >>> Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). >>> >> Bill, >> >> is your real test to use sixx on 1.4? If you just want to test 1.4 then export your data with fuel from an 1.3 image and back into a 1.4 one. This should be pretty easy. >> >> Norbert >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM >>> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls) >>> >>> On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: >>>> >>>>> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. >>>> >>>> What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. >>>> And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. >>> >>> Exactly. >>> Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. >>> I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) >>> and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. >>> >>> Stef >>> >> >> > >

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Norbert, Understood about the gap. I have been periodically trying to build an newer image, always with something that does not work. Redirecting squeaksource makes it possible to think about having some success, but as a friend, Metacello as constituted is a bear to use. I am speaking as an end user of multiple packages (ODBC, LDAP, Citezen, Seaside). Getting all to load at the same sitting *appears* to be impossible. I don't really believe that, which is one of the reasons I keep trying. FWIW, I got close tonight, but Seaside won't load now... Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Norbert Hartl [norbert(a)hartl.name] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:53 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Cc: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) Am 23.02.2012 um 09:21 schrieb "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > Norbert, > > Thanks for the suggestion, but I really need to get things loaded so I can load an even bigger pile of code that I have written. There is also the question of how to capture all of the legacy data; it's not as easy as one might think, as some things are "in the wild." Well, Sixx should be fine for that. If you only use pharo than I would move to Fuel. If you encounter problems with Sixx let me know I might help herr. > I've really used this system, and could simply hang at 1.1.1 for a long time - I'm trying to do better than that. You know, Bill it is your personal decision when to spend time. If you save it now the gap grows and you have to spend it later. Norbert > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Norbert Hartl [norbert(a)hartl.name] > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:07 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Cc: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) > > Am 23.02.2012 um 08:27 schrieb "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > >> Stef, >> >> Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). >> > Bill, > > is your real test to use sixx on 1.4? If you just want to test 1.4 then export your data with fuel from an 1.3 image and back into a 1.4 one. This should be pretty easy. > > Norbert >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] >> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls) >> >> On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >> >>> >>> Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: >>> >>>> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. >>> >>> What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. >>> And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. >> >> Exactly. >> Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. >> I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) >> and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. >> >> Stef >> > >

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, This: Gofer new squeaksource:'MetacelloRepository'; package:'ConfigurationOfCitezen'; load. ( (Smalltalk at:#ConfigurationOfCitezen ) project version: #stable) load: { 'NoWeb'}. is loading Seaside. Did I do something wrong? Further, I've hit dependency warning (e.g. a 45 minute?? build stops dead in its tracks). Complaints so far over Transcript streams and Text Morph something or other. It finally bound up over preferences (missing message - detail later). I tried a separate load of Seaside, but it's complaining about preferences out of the gate. For the "you're just complaining" crowd, I'm simply reporting what is happening. I would very much like to see Jenkins build a 1.4 and then a 1.4+Seaside. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:21 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) Norbert, Thanks for the suggestion, but I really need to get things loaded so I can load an even bigger pile of code that I have written. There is also the question of how to capture all of the legacy data; it's not as easy as one might think, as some things are "in the wild." I've really used this system, and could simply hang at 1.1.1 for a long time - I'm trying to do better than that. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Norbert Hartl [norbert(a)hartl.name] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:07 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Cc: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) Am 23.02.2012 um 08:27 schrieb "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > Stef, > > Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). > Bill, is your real test to use sixx on 1.4? If you just want to test 1.4 then export your data with fuel from an 1.3 image and back into a 1.4 one. This should be pretty easy. Norbert > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls) > > On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > >> >> Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: >> >>> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. >> >> What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. >> And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. > > Exactly. > Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. > I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) > and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. > > Stef >

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Migrating from VSE

by Philippe Marschall

On 02/23/2012 09:27 AM, S Krish wrote: > Can anyone can throw in the challenges in migrating VSE into Pharo.. > > UI -> Morphic a big change.. > > rest of the code -> Pharo base.. do we have grease / or anything akin.. to > ease migration Grease helps only if you're code is already written against Grease. Otherwise you'll first have to port to Grease. At which point you might just as well port to your target dialect. The same applies for other libraries such as SPort. Grease only covers a small subset of what applications usually need, it is mostly targeted at web applications. Grease for example does not cover sockets, files or XML. > Or is it simply the same effort as pushng this into VW where it would stand > better guarantees..? both from a corporate plan/ support etc. Grease should work on any dialect where Seaside 3 runs. Cheers Philippe

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] gl/cl interop

by chadwick

> > Now on the way to go there Javier used NativeBoost to check how we can get > access to openGl Context on linux. > > I should sit with igor this morning to get a cube in OpenGL debugging on > the fly presentation and we will do a > video for YOU. Happy :). > brilliant! can't wait - happy coding awaits!..

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Norbert Hartl

Am 23.02.2012 um 09:21 schrieb "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > Norbert, > > Thanks for the suggestion, but I really need to get things loaded so I can load an even bigger pile of code that I have written. There is also the question of how to capture all of the legacy data; it's not as easy as one might think, as some things are "in the wild." Well, Sixx should be fine for that. If you only use pharo than I would move to Fuel. If you encounter problems with Sixx let me know I might help herr. > I've really used this system, and could simply hang at 1.1.1 for a long time - I'm trying to do better than that. You know, Bill it is your personal decision when to spend time. If you save it now the gap grows and you have to spend it later. Norbert > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Norbert Hartl [norbert(a)hartl.name] > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:07 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Cc: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) > > Am 23.02.2012 um 08:27 schrieb "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > >> Stef, >> >> Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). >> > Bill, > > is your real test to use sixx on 1.4? If you just want to test 1.4 then export your data with fuel from an 1.3 image and back into a 1.4 one. This should be pretty easy. > > Norbert >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] >> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls) >> >> On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >> >>> >>> Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: >>> >>>> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. >>> >>> What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. >>> And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. >> >> Exactly. >> Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. >> I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) >> and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. >> >> Stef >> > >

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Christoph Wysseier

Dear Andreas Am 22.02.12 23:00, schrieb Andreas Wacknitz: > > Am 22.02.2012 um 10:34 schrieb Janko MivÅ¡ek: > >> S, Christoph Wysseier piÅ¡e: >> >>> StÃ©phane Ducasse: >> >>>> I'm convinced that having support for multitouch event/ genie and >>>> others works (for iPad = $$$$) is important. >> >>> Without pretending to know the future, IMHO standalone apps for tablets >>> and mobile will disappear over time. Out of my perspective it would be >>> far more important to move in the direction of web-based technologies >>> also in this area. Looking at the success stories of Pharo and our own >>> strategy I do not see the advantages of having multi-touch support for >>> the development of such applications. >> >> I agree completely that web based techologies are where we should go >> because we have advantage here with Smalltalk while for any kind of GUI >> we are off. > [stuff deleted] > > I like Smalltalk the language for its orthogonality and power. If I hear a statement > like "we should go<enter hype term here> because its the future!" I have the feeling > that somebody wants some followers on his or her main area of interest. Although I do not believe Web technolgies to be just a hype, it was not my intention at all to convince everyone working with Pharo to use it from now on for web applications only. There are of course several stakeholders with different business or community ideas. Nevertheless, as we and others are using Pharo as an IDE to develop web applications we need to be able to count on the support of the board and community that the further development considers our business model which does not lock out other ideas at all. > Web technologies bring some advantages in the software life cycle, mainly distribution. > But they put additional burden in the GUI development because it's more complicated than traditional GUI's. > Thus, you'll need a bigger user base for your application to make it worth the additional efforts in development. > Additionally there are some areas where web GUI didn't catch up with traditional GUI's at all. As already Esteban mentioned it depends on the use case. The applications we develop are far easier to realise using web-based GUIs. Besides the development and deployment, the resulting applications offer a lot of additional benefits in contrast to standalone software. But you are right, this of course does not apply to every requirements at all. Regards, Chris

Feb. 23, 2012

[Pharo-project] Migrating from VSE

by S Krish

Can anyone can throw in the challenges in migrating VSE into Pharo.. UI -> Morphic a big change.. rest of the code -> Pharo base.. do we have grease / or anything akin.. to ease migration Or is it simply the same effort as pushng this into VW where it would stand better guarantees..? both from a corporate plan/ support etc.

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience)

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Norbert, Thanks for the suggestion, but I really need to get things loaded so I can load an even bigger pile of code that I have written. There is also the question of how to capture all of the legacy data; it's not as easy as one might think, as some things are "in the wild." I've really used this system, and could simply hang at 1.1.1 for a long time - I'm trying to do better than that. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Norbert Hartl [norbert(a)hartl.name] Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:07 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Cc: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 and forward (was Netstyle experience) Am 23.02.2012 um 08:27 schrieb "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > Stef, > > Reading this is encouraging. I have not forgotten about 1.4, I have simply been heavily distracted. SIXX is a concern, as I built a lot on top of it and (I *think*) need to get it loaded in order to evaluate Fuel vs. it. XML parsers are a big part of life for SIXX. Regardless of any change I might make, SIXX should be in the image to load "legacy" data (from last month<g>). > Bill, is your real test to use sixx on 1.4? If you just want to test 1.4 then export your data with fuel from an 1.3 image and back into a 1.4 one. This should be pretty easy. Norbert > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:50 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls) > > On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > >> >> Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: >> >>> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. >> >> What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. >> And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. > > Exactly. > Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. > I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) > and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. > > Stef >

Feb. 23, 2012