February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by Marcus Denker

On Feb 10, 2012, at 9:36 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > I am trying to simplify it :) You use a Mac, right? I'm using Linux, and the vm differences might be at play?? > How can we know if we can not reproduce the problem? Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Feb. 10, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, I have an idea for something that might be simple enough to make the point. It is confusing though, especially that once an image goes bad, it stays bad, even though (AFAIK, I don't save it after the damage is done). I have work to do there. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 3:29 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins On Feb 9, 2012, at 11:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Sven, > > Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello configurations to load what they need to build an image. I am attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative so far) experience, with debug logs. Sure we will start to work on distribution certification as I mentioned in the draft of Pharo Vision document which escape my hd recently.. new version coming soon. Bill can you post a reproachable case for us to play with? > > Pharo's fault or not, something is broken. But if Pharo is going to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather around the lighthouse is going to be grim. > > Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged. Maybe the logs will reveal something?? > > Bill > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Sven Van Caekenberghe [sven(a)beta9.be] > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 5:14 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins > > On 09 Feb 2012, at 22:27, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> My new 1.4 image is behaving a *little* better than its predecessors, but there is still a problem. It seems to happen after invoking Metacello loads, even with the mirror. Odd behaviors include: >> >> (1) can't open debugger >> (2) can't open process browser >> (3) intermittent flashing/alternating cursors in text editors. >> >> Whatever happens, it seems to be saved into the image as MC works, because killing the image and reloading results in a hobbled system. >> >> At least with 1.4, I can sometimes break into a debugger, presumably because something is busy in a tight loop. That might be a/the parser?? >> >> BTW, in an hour (max) of playing around, I've generated a 38 MB debug log - too big to read :( There are mentions of a parser, but my grep creativity has not allowed me to pull out any useful information. Perhaps I can start over with a clean log, let it get into some trouble, and review the log at a smaller size. >> >> Suggestions? > > Some remarks: > > - if you load code and it fails for whatever reason, and there was no hidden save somewhere, I would be extremely surprised if killing the image (clean or otherwise) would result in permanent damage; the only side effect could be in your filesystem (local package cache), but even that would normally not hurt the image itself > > - you are obviously loading lots of stuff: when this does not work, that is not 'Pharo's fault', you should ask the people who wrote these libraries for help (maybe through this list); you can't call gcc crap or unstable when a certain library fails > > - when you are reporting bugs and ask for help, you really have to bring your problem down to a simple test case that others can reproduce; even if people would want to help you, they cannot do so with these generalizations > > Sven > > >

Feb. 10, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, I am trying to simplify it :) You use a Mac, right? I'm using Linux, and the vm differences might be at play?? Thanks for understanding my motivations. I'll keep at it. It might also be interesting for me to try to orchestrate an attempt on a Windows vm. I don't care for Windows, but I have long respected Andreas' work on it vm. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 3:26 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins bill can you build a reproducable situation? Because we use daily packages with 1.4 In fact in often only develop in 1.4 and did not experience this problem. but it does not mean that we do not have problems :) Stef On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things. I have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest packages, and *that* might not be mirrored. I might need to specify the mirror server in my code to make them work. > > Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save. Does MC snapshot before/during an attempted load? It seems very misguided that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image?? > > One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu) system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running? Dumb question? Maybe, but I'm stumped. Any ideas? > > Bill > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of blake [dsblakewatson(a)gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins > > I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got > "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup > full of startup errors. > > But! > > It's all actually very friendly! I can look through the errors and try > to figure out what caused them. It's way cleaner than the old style > mega-DNU-stacks. > > Nice work! > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >> I grabbed 1.4 and cog/unix from jenkins, dumped all the files in one >> directory, made a shell script to run the image using Cog, and all I can say >> is "wow." >> >> The usability problems I was having are gone. In particular, the context >> menus work. I loaded Migrate and set preferences, with a really nice >> appearance resulting. >> >> One question: why did ClassDescription>>package go away? That seems to be a >> really useful message. >> >> I'll try to build an image using the SqueakSource mirror. No promises, but >> 1.4 "suddenly" looks a LOT more polished than it did. Are the links on the >> Pharo page old, or did somebody just do a lot of work to make things better? >> >> Bill >> >> > >

Feb. 10, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 10, 2012, at 12:18 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 10 February 2012 11:33, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >> That's precisely what I'm trying to do. Sig's answer might provide a piece of the puzzle, but I still have to figure out whether/why/how the problem really does persist after executing code and not saving the image. I added some snapshots thinking I could take success as it comes and repeat steps that failure, but I removed them all (I think) when I started to discover that once hobbled, the image remains hobbled, saved or not. Weird. >> > yes, the problem is when you have an error and i had wrong idea to > suspend a process before scheduling request to open debugger on it :) :) so igor do you have a fix? is it the rollback suggestion at the end of the issue? Stef > >> For all I know, I have made this reproducible. One response said essentially, "yeah, I sometimes just load the packages MC would load" - hardly the way one speaks of a robust infrastructure. >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Marcus Denker [marcus.denker(a)inria.fr] >> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 5:26 AM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins >> >> On Feb 10, 2012, at 11:22 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> >>> Dale, >>> >>> I'm not "complaining," I'm stating facts and asking for advice. Not only did I state that I produced a "big" debug log, I also POSTED a smaller one. If you mean something different by a "stack trace," can you provide some instructions for how to obtain it? >>> >> What we need is a description of how to re-produce the problem. >> Do not think that anyone can (or even wants to help) if you just say "I did something and than I got strange results". >> >> Make it reproducable, and then add a bug report. >> >> Marcus >> >> -- >> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de >> >> >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Feb. 10, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi benoit I think that this is clear to everybody :) Now I would like to be able to help and for that we need a case. Stef On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:59 AM, Benoit St-Jean wrote: > Before we even get to the details, we should make sure we all exchange on a polite and non agressive tone. > > That being said, I don't think Bill is whining. You never hear people who don't care. I don't give a damn about product X, environment Y and programming language Z. That's why I never complain (or whine) about X, Y or Z. On the other hand, that's why you'll hear me complain about Smalltalk, Pharo, mathematics and a few other topics. Why? Because I care! > > Saying stuff don't work shouldn't be perceived as an ad hominem attack. It just shows someone, somewhere, somehow had an interest to say it so it gets fixed. And please, no "if you're no happy why don't you fix it and contribute" answer... This is the kind of answer that made me walk away from Pharo at a certain point... > > If we can't take critics/bugs/suggestions/tickets/whatever without entering a "defensive mode", we won't get far. > > Let's keep it cool and remember that nobody forced anyone to use Pharo and read this mailing list and take the time to post. > > We're all here because we do care! > > ----------------- > Benoit St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. > (Albert Einstein) > From: Dale Henrichs <dhenrich(a)vmware.com> > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 8:33:20 PM > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins > > Bill, > > The last time you complained about Metacello being broken I asked you for a stack trace and I have seen no stack trace, although I believe that you were able to confirm that Metacello worked fine until you loaded some of your own code into the system ... > > Here you are complaining again ... if you don't provide specifics, the issues cannot be resolved ... > > There are apparently a lot of moving parts in your system, so it takes great attention to detail to get such a system running smoothly. The fact that you don't provide specifics tells me that perhaps you are not paying attention to the details ... > > When you are porting to a new environment (for you) like Pharo 1.4, you should stop and isolate the FIRST ERROR that you encounter ... in a complicated system once an error occurs, all bets are off ... You MUST pay attention to details ... > > You state that you have a giant debug log ... so it sounds like you tried to keep moving forward in the face of initial errors...I say good luck with that approach! > > If you post a Metacello stack trace I can very likely tell you what went wrong, if you prefer to continue to whine and complain about Metacello without even attempting to help me characterize the issues, then I will leave you to your own devices and you can can complain about Metacello all you want --- I won't be paying attention any more:) > > Dale > > > ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 4:26:27 PM > | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins > | > | I think you might be right about loading the .mcz files. But I don't > | have an expectation other than what has been said here many times: > | that Metacello is the future. So far, I don't see it. > | > | Bill > | > | > | ________________________________________ > | From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Yanni > | Chiu [yanni(a)rogers.com] > | Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:22 PM > | To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins > | > | On 09/02/12 5:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > | > Sven, > | > > | > Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello > | > configurations to load what they need to build an image. I am > | > attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative so > | > far) experience, with debug logs. > | > > | > Pharo's fault or not, something is broken. But if Pharo is going > | > to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather > | > around the lighthouse is going to be grim. > | > > | > Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged. Maybe the > | > logs will reveal something?? > | > | You might want to check the package cache for 0-length .mcz files, > | which > | might happen when the server is down. > | > | When I upgrade to a new image version, I just start my build process > | with the new image, and cross my fingers. If it fails, then I do it > | manually with the build script in a workspace - select each > | framework/package and "doIt". Sometimes I run the framework's tests, > | after each step. > | > | I load all "community" code first, unless I have extensions to this > | code. Sometimes I've had to upgrade to a newer version of the > | framework, > | if available. At other times, I had to create patches because I was > | tracking the Pharo updates (so no fixed version was available yet). > | > | In extreme cases, I've had to generate the list of packages that > | Metacello would load, then load each .mcz individually. > | > | Typically, I'd do "save image as" at various points, to be able to > | get > | back to the problem code, more quickly. > | > | I think you're pretty much following a similar process, except the > | expectation that a Metacello configuration should just load without > | problems on Pharo1.4-unstable is too optimistic. > | > | > | > | > > >

Feb. 10, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 9, 2012, at 11:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Sven, > > Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello configurations to load what they need to build an image. I am attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative so far) experience, with debug logs. Sure we will start to work on distribution certification as I mentioned in the draft of Pharo Vision document which escape my hd recently.. new version coming soon. Bill can you post a reproachable case for us to play with? > > Pharo's fault or not, something is broken. But if Pharo is going to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather around the lighthouse is going to be grim. > > Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged. Maybe the logs will reveal something?? > > Bill > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Sven Van Caekenberghe [sven(a)beta9.be] > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 5:14 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins > > On 09 Feb 2012, at 22:27, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> My new 1.4 image is behaving a *little* better than its predecessors, but there is still a problem. It seems to happen after invoking Metacello loads, even with the mirror. Odd behaviors include: >> >> (1) can't open debugger >> (2) can't open process browser >> (3) intermittent flashing/alternating cursors in text editors. >> >> Whatever happens, it seems to be saved into the image as MC works, because killing the image and reloading results in a hobbled system. >> >> At least with 1.4, I can sometimes break into a debugger, presumably because something is busy in a tight loop. That might be a/the parser?? >> >> BTW, in an hour (max) of playing around, I've generated a 38 MB debug log - too big to read :( There are mentions of a parser, but my grep creativity has not allowed me to pull out any useful information. Perhaps I can start over with a clean log, let it get into some trouble, and review the log at a smaller size. >> >> Suggestions? > > Some remarks: > > - if you load code and it fails for whatever reason, and there was no hidden save somewhere, I would be extremely surprised if killing the image (clean or otherwise) would result in permanent damage; the only side effect could be in your filesystem (local package cache), but even that would normally not hurt the image itself > > - you are obviously loading lots of stuff: when this does not work, that is not 'Pharo's fault', you should ask the people who wrote these libraries for help (maybe through this list); you can't call gcc crap or unstable when a certain library fails > > - when you are reporting bugs and ask for help, you really have to bring your problem down to a simple test case that others can reproduce; even if people would want to help you, they cannot do so with these generalizations > > Sven > > >

Feb. 10, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

bill can you build a reproducable situation? Because we use daily packages with 1.4 In fact in often only develop in 1.4 and did not experience this problem. but it does not mean that we do not have problems :) Stef On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:15 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > One snag: I'm still getting strangely broken images (won't open process browser or debugger) after trying to download some things. I have mirrored squeak source, BUT, some things (SIXX, ODBC) don't appear to have working configs, so I'm trying to grab the latest packages, and *that* might not be mirrored. I might need to specify the mirror server in my code to make them work. > > Still, I don't get how simply asking MC to download something will permanently mar the image w/o my doing an explicit save. Does MC snapshot before/during an attempted load? It seems very misguided that an innocent attempt to load something can hobble an image?? > > One other crazy possibility: is killing a vm from the (Ubunutu) system monitor somehow not sufficient to clear what is running? Dumb question? Maybe, but I'm stumped. Any ideas? > > Bill > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of blake [dsblakewatson(a)gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 2:58 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins > > I just downloaded the latest CogWin and Pharo 1.4 image and I got > "WARNING: Manufactured file handle detected!" at the bottom, and popup > full of startup errors. > > But! > > It's all actually very friendly! I can look through the errors and try > to figure out what caused them. It's way cleaner than the old style > mega-DNU-stacks. > > Nice work! > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >> I grabbed 1.4 and cog/unix from jenkins, dumped all the files in one >> directory, made a shell script to run the image using Cog, and all I can say >> is "wow." >> >> The usability problems I was having are gone. In particular, the context >> menus work. I loaded Migrate and set preferences, with a really nice >> appearance resulting. >> >> One question: why did ClassDescription>>package go away? That seems to be a >> really useful message. >> >> I'll try to build an image using the SqueakSource mirror. No promises, but >> 1.4 "suddenly" looks a LOT more polished than it did. Are the links on the >> Pharo page old, or did somebody just do a lot of work to make things better? >> >> Bill >> >> > >

Feb. 10, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi miguel I do not think that bill was nasty and I appreciated his feedback. What is true is that we integrated in our way of life long time ago that doing something today is the best way to have done something that is not left to do :). Stef On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:12 PM, Miguel CobÃ¡ wrote: > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > >> >> I'll try to build an image using the SqueakSource mirror. No promises, but >> 1.4 "suddenly" looks a LOT more polished than it did. Are the links on the >> Pharo page old, or did somebody just do a lot of work to make things better? >> > > Are you kidding? > > How could this possibly "suddenly" happen? What do you think that the > Pharo community is doing? Of course isn't suddenly! It is the result of > the hard work that Stef, Markus, Igor, INRIA people and the Squeak > community (from where a lot of improvements are picked) are doing every > day, one step at the time. > So, please don't send messages like this. Isn't that "somebody just do a > lot work to make things better". It is the result of the long term plan > that Pharo was created to fulfill. It is the work of people, with names, > with effort invested. > This mail is very offensive to the people that, from long ago and with a > lot of fights and effort, has been working hard to make a vision a > reality. > > Miguel CobÃ¡ >

Feb. 10, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 9, 2012, at 8:06 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > I grabbed 1.4 and cog/unix from jenkins, dumped all the files in one directory, made a shell script to run the image using Cog, and all I can say is "wow." tx > The usability problems I was having are gone. In particular, the context menus work. I loaded Migrate and set preferences, with a really nice appearance resulting. > > One question: why did ClassDescription>>package go away? That seems to be a really useful message. we have to check. because this is probably not intended. > I'll try to build an image using the SqueakSource mirror. No promises, but 1.4 "suddenly" looks a LOT more polished than it did. Are the links on the Pharo page old, which page? > or did somebody just do a lot of work to make things better? probably that too :) > > Bill

Feb. 10, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [update 1.4] #14327

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

thanks marcus! I like the rhythm of frequent updateâ¦ It is a drug :) Stef On Feb 10, 2012, at 4:47 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: > 14327 > ----- > > Issue 5273: Dragging files on the window (e.g. .cs) not working > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5273 > Issue 5271: Bug in checkbox > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5271 > > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > >

Feb. 10, 2012