February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Dear Guido > Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable* Did you try with VisualWorks? I'm pretty sure that you can use it without paying a license. :) > Look at: http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc… > > Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could sell *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting inclusive for 20.000 each. Are you doing such web site? With Seaside? With Pharo? > Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, not just bothering some class structure deep in Pharo. > > Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I hoped to see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware with being everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, â¦ Provide real code and examples. > I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic brainfuck is not sufficient. :) Who are you to know what we are really doing :) > So are your etats for developing Pharo, near ZERO. Start thinking like business men! Listen to that, what customers want! I would be curious to see your "clients". Pharo is far from what we dream about but we are serious about it and we are concerned by business. Now your trolling is good because we are not an obscure community without a troll but we have one troll so this is good. Thanks. If you are positive and provide information that is not just bullshitting then we will consider to reply and consider your request else *plonk* Stef

Feb. 13, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> > > Course, trolls always have something extra to say :) I thought that they were changed in stone if touched by sun light but apparently it does not work anymore maybe we got tricked by saroumaneâ¦ Stef

Feb. 13, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 13, 2012, at 5:38 PM, Peter Hugosson-Miller wrote: > Hey Guido, I thought you said you were leaving us! Just too hard to stay away, eh? :-) lol We are addictive. Like honey for bees :) Stef > > -- > Cheers, > Peter > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even. > > Tnx 4 your funny comment! > > Have fun, Guido Stepken > > Am 13.02.2012 17:08 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven(a)beta9.be>: > > > On 13 Feb 2012, at 16:32, Guido Stepken wrote: > > > Its quite difficult not to say *impossible* to run Pharo even for simple tasks within a small vserver account with 256 or 512 MB reserved or dynamically assigned memory space. > > This is ridiculous: a current stock Pharo server image (i.e. non-stripped) compares favorably with any other dynamic language. > > http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo > > I am currently running 5 VM's on an AWS EC2 micro instance (613MB RAM, up to 2 ECU (1 ECU = the equivalent CPU capacity of a 1.0-1.2 GHz 2007 Opteron or 2007 Xeon processor)). > > Setup can also be quite simple: > > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Core-HTTP-Server-OneCommandLine-Demo-td3702218.… > > Sven

Feb. 13, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New implementation of MultiColumnList

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks ben. I'm running even more than usual Will be at the presentation tomorrow then running teaching. But we should sit and discuss and get feedback from alain. Stef On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Benjamin wrote: > Hi, > > I have done a new version of this morph. Since the basic list morph can now render all kind morphs, I wanted to try with a new approach consisting of wrap each element with a designated morph. > > For the default behavior, speed is a bit better > > MessageTally spyOn: [ SystemNavigation default browseAllCallsOn: #+] > old version: - 3829 tallies, 3843 msec. > new version: - 2824 tallies, 2824 msec. > > I use the same approach for a new sender implementation using spec and since I already know the column widths, the speed is really better > - 835 tallies, 840 msec. (and it does a hierarchy sort) > > I am currently working on this aspect (if the model specify the widths, is it really faster ?) > > Code is available here: > > Gofer new > repository: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/DirtyExperiments'; > package: 'MultiColumnList'; > load > > This code is depending of issues 5283 and 5181 > > > > Ben

Feb. 13, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 13 Feb 2012, at 19:09, Guido Stepken wrote: > Caching now has moved into Apache core. Is still there. Facts ?? There is no such thing, you have to enable it manually: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/caching.html

Feb. 13, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Igor Stasenko

On 13 February 2012 18:59, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > Am 13.02.2012 18:17 schrieb "Igor Stasenko" <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > >> How about *real* and *direct* load on a sport car? Ever tried to haul >> fuel cistern with it? >> How fast it goes? >> The answer to your issue is just one: use proper tools for solving >> your problems. > > Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable* > Seaside is separate project. It runs on multiple smalltalk dialects. Now if you think that something in Pharo makes it slow or unusable, feel free to identify and point out on problem, open issue, report bugs, contribute fixes. > Look at: > http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc… > > Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could sell > *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting inclusive for > 20.000 each. > And? Clicking on slider on that site takes 5 seconds for page to refresh. Welcome to *real* world. > Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, not just > bothering some class structure deep in Pharo. > > Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I hoped to > see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware with being > everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, ... > You lost me. VM is not Seaside. Not a database. Not a web server. And finally, not a notebook selling portal. VM is general-purpose virtual machine. And it will always lose to specialized software which were originally designed for serving web under high loads. So, again use right tools for your needs. And good luck with waiting till 'speedups' will magically happen while keeping trolling. > I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic > brainfuck is not sufficient. So are your etats for developing Pharo, near > ZERO. Start thinking like business men! Listen to that, what customers want! > > tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 13, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Debugging with Toggle breakpoint

by S Krish

Sure, I hope my understanding of the system, polling events is good enough to avoid basic pitfalls.. But this is debug breakpoint of custom classes for Morphic View.. simple morphic compositions.. not in the Pharo framework code.. But as you said let me get this cleanly replicable this weekend and give a heads up.. else its like finding a needle in a haystack.. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 13 February 2012 16:58, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > wrote: > > > > On Feb 13, 2012, at 3:49 AM, S Krish wrote: > > > >> Will come up with a cs for the issues in Morphic widgets shortly after > I test them more thoroughly.. > >> > >> I am kind of convinced that putting a breakpoint in a method with > "Toggle Breakpoint" and then stepping through the morphic code base is > causing the UI instability of rendering glitches and other concomittant > issues. It does not occur, if we do normal "debugIt" and then step through, > so it should not be much to do with Morphic stepping thru logic of events > et all.. but something intrinsic to how the breakpoint affects Morphic / UI > rendering of Pharo. > > > > I never use such functionality so I cannot comment. > > > I can only say, that if you put a breakpoint at wrong place somewhere > in morphic code, you may endup with broken system, > when rendering/event handling code always goes to that method and > always halts there, causing restarting UI process on every system > event. > > Debugging UI while UI is running is not an easy task. Mostly done > manually with tricks like haltOnce: or invoking doits which lead to > parts of code under question. > > So, it would be good to know first, where exactly you put breakpoints. > > >> > >> I have done fair amount of work spread across several days with the > same image earlier, days prior to "breakpoint" capabilities on Pharo 1.1, > but now I barely have the image last the day, goes sluggish and with these > UI blemishes may be unrelated but I suspect a correlation: > >> > >> ( Pharo is Lot better though than Linux blemises with Compbiz where you > loose all window bars, decorations.. once a while..!) > >> > >> On Pharo 1.3 stable mostly/ Also Pharo 1.4 latest : > >> > >> * The thumbnail image of taskbar windows will remain painted, behind > the top window, on the World.. ( thankfully..) but at times on front > occluding the top window . > >> * Windows/ Menus will come up partially occluded and running the mouse > over exposes it fully.. > >> * Mouse inputs become sluggish... > >> * Transcript opened in these situations sometimes has a funny effect > of only the textMorph of transcript partially overlapping the top Window > >> > >> * From a newbie perspective, need to keep a list of methods break point > cannot be put in, which are polling code.. > >> > >> Will need to get more precise and come back on them with fixes as > possible. I will revert to the older breakpointing of using self halt > inserted at top/ line I need with the "Toggle breakpoint" and check also.. > >> > >> Will dig in deeper and come back. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > >

Feb. 13, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] SocketPlugin: ignoring unknown option 'TCP_CORK'

by Eliot Miranda

On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Philippe Marschall < philippe.marschall(a)netcetera.ch> wrote: > On 02/13/2012 12:08 AM, Eliot Miranda wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> Hi Phillipe, >> >> you'll need to add TCP_CORK to the list of known options in >> platforms/unix/plugins/**SocketPlugin/sqUnixSocket.c >> > > Do you accept patches? With gratitude :) > Is the source still at [1]? > Yes. > > [1] http://www.squeakvm.org/svn/**squeak/branches/Cog/<http://www.squeakvm.org/svn/squeak/branches/Cog/> > > Cheers > Philippe > > > -- best, Eliot

Feb. 13, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Guido Stepken

Caching now has moved into Apache core. Is still there. Am 13.02.2012 18:51 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven(a)beta9.be>: > > On 13 Feb 2012, at 18:09, Guido Stepken wrote: > > > Yes! http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_proxy.html > > > > Even dynamically growing cache memory. > > No! > > This page > > http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo > > clearly refers/links to > > http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_proxy_balancer.html > > which refers/links to > > http://httpd.apache.org/docs/current/mod/mod_proxy.html > > Where it is clearly stated that mod_cache is needed to add caching > functionality (Apache 1.3 is different, old). > > > Tnx 4 your comments. When you put *real* and *direct* load on Pharo (no > tricks, no apache, no nginx in front), and you can see, what i mean: Memory > pumping, eating up vasts mounts of memory at even low load (use ab -n 10000 > -c 1000) â¦ > > I would be very surprised to learn that you have written and/or operated a > dynamic website that was hit like that ! > > > Ok, facts are unwanted here. Away again! :-) > > Bye. > > >

Feb. 13, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?

by Guido Stepken

Am 13.02.2012 18:17 schrieb "Igor Stasenko" <siguctua <siguctua(a)gmail.com>@<siguctua(a)gmail.com> gmail.com <siguctua(a)gmail.com>>: > How about *real* and *direct* load on a sport car? Ever tried to haul > fuel cistern with it? > How fast it goes? > The answer to your issue is just one: use proper tools for solving > your problems. Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable* Look at: http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suc… Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could sell *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting inclusive for 20.000 each. Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, not just bothering some class structure deep in Pharo. Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I hoped to see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware with being everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, ... I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic brainfuck is not sufficient. So are your etats for developing Pharo, near ZERO. Start thinking like business men! Listen to that, what customers want! tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken

Feb. 13, 2012