November 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Limbo: a simple shell wrapper for NativeBoost

by Igor Stasenko

On 23 November 2012 18:00, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Ok, thanks Igor. > > So it seems the only remaining option (apart from providing a C library) it to use Assembly. Assembly is not my territory at all but here's how I think it could work: > > â¦ > emitCall: [:gen | | fork dup2 execv | > fork := NativeBoost forCurrentPlatform getGlobalSymbolPointer: 'fork'. > dup2 := NativeBoost forCurrentPlatform getGlobalSymbolPointer: 'dup2'. > execv := NativeBoost forCurrentPlatform getGlobalSymbolPointer > gen asm mov: fork asUImm32 to: gen asm EAX. > gen asm call: gen asm EAX. > "somehow get the fork return value and test for 0. > only execute the following lines if pid = 0" > gen asm mov: dup2 asUImm32 to: gen asm EAX. > gen asm call: gen asm EAX. > gen asm mov: execv asUImm32 to: gen asm EAX. > gen call: gen asm EAX. > ] > > As you can see, I have absolutely no clue what I'm doing :) (just a good copycat). I figure that everything from fork() to exec() needs to be in the same Assembly sequence to ensure that the child process doesn't try to execute VM code (multiple #emitCall:'s probably wouldn't work). > > I think that if you could help me fill in the code for where I simply used a comment, I could come up with the rest (writing function specs etc.). I'l try at least. > yes i can help. where i can get the code? btw, your code is actually very close to how it should be done. > Cheers, > Max > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Limbo: a simple shell wrapper for NativeBoost

by Max Leske

Ok, thanks Igor. So it seems the only remaining option (apart from providing a C library) it to use Assembly. Assembly is not my territory at all but here's how I think it could work: â¦ emitCall: [:gen | | fork dup2 execv | fork := NativeBoost forCurrentPlatform getGlobalSymbolPointer: 'fork'. dup2 := NativeBoost forCurrentPlatform getGlobalSymbolPointer: 'dup2'. execv := NativeBoost forCurrentPlatform getGlobalSymbolPointer gen asm mov: fork asUImm32 to: gen asm EAX. gen asm call: gen asm EAX. "somehow get the fork return value and test for 0. only execute the following lines if pid = 0" gen asm mov: dup2 asUImm32 to: gen asm EAX. gen asm call: gen asm EAX. gen asm mov: execv asUImm32 to: gen asm EAX. gen call: gen asm EAX. ] As you can see, I have absolutely no clue what I'm doing :) (just a good copycat). I figure that everything from fork() to exec() needs to be in the same Assembly sequence to ensure that the child process doesn't try to execute VM code (multiple #emitCall:'s probably wouldn't work). I think that if you could help me fill in the code for where I simply used a comment, I could come up with the rest (writing function specs etc.). I'l try at least. Cheers, Max On 23.11.2012, at 17:00, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > so here's the answer: > - no you cannot use FFI for fork/exec.. > because there's too much involved. > > Ideally VM should have support for it, because i think even OSProcess > lacking important bits, like: > - closing all file descriptors (and in unix fd is not just files, but > for sockets as well) > - cleaning/preparing environment before doing exec > - god knows what else. > > now if we take into account that different parts (sockets/files) in VM > responsible for them, > and need coordination to do a safe cleanup after fork.. i don't think > it will be possible to do that using FFI. > just too much management. > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Nov. 23, 2012

[Pharo-project] [update 2.0] #20417

by Marcus Denker

20417 ----- Issue 7044: VTermOutputDriver calls stdOut instead of stdout http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=7044 Issue 7043: some FileSytem methods call subclassResponsability http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=7043 Issue 7039: Refactoring in PluggableTextMorph and TextHighlight http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=7039 Diff information: http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Pharo20/System-CommandLine-MarcusDenker.63.diff http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Pharo20/Polymorph-Widgets-MarcusDenker.735.diff http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Pharo20/Polymorph-Tools-Diff-MarcusDenker.82.diff http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Pharo20/Morphic-MarcusDenker.1291.diff http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Pharo20/FileSystem-Memory-MarcusDenker.20.diff http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Pharo20/FileSystem-Core-MarcusDenker.62.diff -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Nov. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Limbo: a simple shell wrapper for NativeBoost

by Igor Stasenko

so here's the answer: - no you cannot use FFI for fork/exec.. because there's too much involved. Ideally VM should have support for it, because i think even OSProcess lacking important bits, like: - closing all file descriptors (and in unix fd is not just files, but for sockets as well) - cleaning/preparing environment before doing exec - god knows what else. now if we take into account that different parts (sockets/files) in VM responsible for them, and need coordination to do a safe cleanup after fork.. i don't think it will be possible to do that using FFI. just too much management. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Limbo: a simple shell wrapper for NativeBoost

by Igor Stasenko

On 23 November 2012 16:19, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I did some more digging and I found that I was wrong before: every child process I create through NB is killed immediately and becomes a zombie (that's why it ignored the kill). Once I had that information I implemented the waitpid() call and can now cleanup my zombie children. > This would also explain (at least to my mind) why the child code (pid = 0 ifTrue: [ â¦ ]) is never executed. > > Now, my question is, who terminates my child processes? > > The processes are terminated with SIGABRT; all of the above also applies to vfork(). I found that there's a crash report being generated for that aborted process so I'm attaching it here, maybe you'll see something I missed. > > Max > i would start from here: > > Application Specific Information: > *** multi-threaded process forked *** > abort() called > http://www.linuxprogrammingblog.com/threads-and-fork-think-twice-before-usi… damn... why unix (POSIX) kernels don't have spawn_exec() which spawns a new process without need to do a fork() in current? -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Limbo: a simple shell wrapper for NativeBoost

by Max Leske

I did some more digging and I found that I was wrong before: every child process I create through NB is killed immediately and becomes a zombie (that's why it ignored the kill). Once I had that information I implemented the waitpid() call and can now cleanup my zombie children. This would also explain (at least to my mind) why the child code (pid = 0 ifTrue: [ â¦ ]) is never executed. Now, my question is, who terminates my child processes? The processes are terminated with SIGABRT; all of the above also applies to vfork(). I found that there's a crash report being generated for that aborted process so I'm attaching it here, maybe you'll see something I missed. Max Process: NBCog [36367] Path: /Users/USER/*/NBCog.app/Contents/MacOS/NBCog Identifier: NBCog Version: NBCog VM 6.0-pre (21.0) Code Type: X86 (Native) Parent Process: NBCog [36341] User ID: 501 Date/Time: 2012-11-23 16:17:42.083 +0100 OS Version: Mac OS X 10.8.2 (12C60) Report Version: 10 Crashed Thread: 0 Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread Exception Type: EXC_CRASH (SIGABRT) Exception Codes: 0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000000 Application Specific Information: *** multi-threaded process forked *** abort() called Thread 0 Crashed:: Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread 0 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x94ce33ba __kill + 10 1 libsystem_kernel.dylib 0x94ce24bc kill$UNIX2003 + 32 2 libsystem_c.dylib 0x91df4527 abort + 215 3 org.squeakfoundation.Squeak 0x0008ab6f error + 95 Thread 0 crashed with X86 Thread State (32-bit): eax: 0x00000000 ebx: 0x0008ab1a ecx: 0xbff5cb0c edx: 0x94ce33ba edi: 0x91df445d esi: 0xbff5cb44 ebp: 0xbff5cb28 esp: 0xbff5cb0c ss: 0x00000023 efl: 0x00000282 eip: 0x94ce33ba cs: 0x0000000b ds: 0x00000023 es: 0x00000023 fs: 0x00000000 gs: 0x0000000f cr2: 0xac30602c Logical CPU: 0 Binary Images: 0x1000 - 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0x9a4c1fff com.apple.GenerationalStorage (1.1 - 132.2) <93694E0D-35D3-3633-976E-F354CBD92F54> /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/GenerationalStorage.framework/Versions/A/GenerationalStorage 0x9a4c2000 - 0x9a4cafff com.apple.DiskArbitration (2.5.1 - 2.5.1) <25A7232F-9B6A-3746-A3A8-12479D086B1E> /System/Library/Frameworks/DiskArbitration.framework/Versions/A/DiskArbitration 0x9a501000 - 0x9a546ff7 com.apple.NavigationServices (3.7 - 200) <F6531764-6E43-3AF3-ACDD-8A5551EF016A> /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/NavigationServices.framework/Versions/A/NavigationServices 0x9a547000 - 0x9a582fe7 libGLImage.dylib (8.6.1) <A3442557-18D5-332E-8859-423D5A20EBBE> /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLImage.dylib 0x9a58a000 - 0x9a695ff7 libJP2.dylib (845) <D409C913-6FA4-3D60-BFE0-B9FC6A02FEE0> /System/Library/Frameworks/ImageIO.framework/Versions/A/Resources/libJP2.dylib 0x9a696000 - 0x9a69dffb libunwind.dylib (35.1) <E1E8D8B3-3C78-3AB1-B398-C180DC6DCF05> /usr/lib/system/libunwind.dylib External Modification Summary: Calls made by other processes targeting this process: task_for_pid: 0 thread_create: 0 thread_set_state: 0 Calls made by this process: task_for_pid: 0 thread_create: 0 thread_set_state: 0 Calls made by all processes on this machine: task_for_pid: 81272 thread_create: 3 thread_set_state: 4130 VM Region Summary: ReadOnly portion of Libraries: Total=154.0M resident=68.0M(44%) swapped_out_or_unallocated=86.0M(56%) Writable regions: Total=662.3M written=172K(0%) resident=76.0M(11%) swapped_out=5492K(1%) unallocated=586.3M(89%) REGION TYPE VIRTUAL =========== ======= ATS (font support) 31.9M ATS (font support) (reserved) 4K reserved VM address space (unallocated) CG image 28K CoreServices 4612K MALLOC 90.9M MALLOC guard page 48K Memory tag=240 4K Memory tag=242 12K Memory tag=243 4K Memory tag=35 4552K OpenCL 20K Stack 67.0M VM_ALLOCATE 528.1M __DATA 7356K __DATA/__OBJC 188K __IMAGE 528K __LINKEDIT 31.8M __OBJC 2384K __OBJC/__DATA 116K __PAGEZERO 4K __TEXT 122.2M __UNICODE 544K mapped file 87.3M shared memory 12K =========== ======= TOTAL 979.3M TOTAL, minus reserved VM space 979.3M On 22.11.2012, at 17:22, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 22.11.2012, at 17:00, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 22 November 2012 16:34, David T. Lewis <lewis(a)mail.msen.com> wrote: >>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 04:04:00PM +0100, Max Leske wrote: >>>> >>>> On 22.11.2012, at 12:28, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 22 November 2012 11:19, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> I have run into a small problem with fork(): >>>>>> >>>>>> pid := self primitiveRun. >>>>>> pid isZero >>>>>> ifTrue: [ "child code with exec" ] >>>>>> ifFalse: [ "parent code" ] >>>>>> >>>>>> primitiveRun >>>>>> <primitive: #primitiveNativeCall module: #NativeBoostPlugin> >>>>>> ^ self nbCall: #( int fork() ) >>>>>> >>>>>> Only the parent code is ever executed, #pid is never 0. >>>>> >>>>> are you sure about that? >>>>> if you evaluate >>>>> self fork >>>>> it will always answer non-zero.. because it is parent process, >>>>> where you observing result. >>>>> But that doesnt means that there is no child process which observes >>>>> different return value. >>>> >>>> Assuming that I wouldn't be able to observer when #pid is 0, then the following should still work: >>>> >>>> pid := self primitiveRun. >>>> pid isZero >>>> ifTrue: [ StandardFileStream forceNewFileNamed: 'foo.log' ] <----------------------- >>>> ifFalse: [ "parent code" ] >>>> >>>> The file 'foo.log' is never created. >>>> >>>> The UnixOSProcessPlugin has pretty much the same code: >>>> >>>> ((pid := self cCode: 'vfork()') = 0) >>>> ifFalse: >>>> [ "child code" ] >>>> ifTrue: >>>> [ "parent code" ] >>>> >>>> BTW: using vfork() instead of fork() (as OSProcess does) doesn't work either (the image hangs as expected but the file 'foo.log' is not created). >>>> >>> >>> Assuming that you are trying to do a fork followed by exec, > > That's the plan, although I'll have to do some stuff with the pipes before exec'ing. > >>> you will want to >>> do the exec immediately after the fork. This may introduce some complications >>> when you do it as two FFI calls, because your child process is still running >>> Smalltalk on the VM, and it needs to keep running long enough to the second >>> FFI call. Opening a new file stream on 'foo.log' implies a *lot* of processing >>> in the child VM, so I am not surprised that this does not work. >>> >>> You might try just making a little "hello world" C program, and see if you >>> can exec that program after doing the fork. That would be a lot less processing >>> for your child VM, so it may have a better chance of working. But you still >>> may have a few issues to sort out in keeping the child VM running long enough >>> to get the the exec FFI call. >>> > > Ok. Not quite sure how that all works but I tried to come up with a program that is as short as possible: > > run > | pid args | > args := (LimboCommand new > command: '/bin/echo'; > arguments: { 'foo' }) > primitiveArguments. > pid := self primitiveRun. > pid isZero > ifTrue: [ self primitiveExecv: args first arguments: args ] > ifFalse: [ "parent code" ]. > > Still not working. fork() does create the child process but it won't exec (because it never reaches that point in execution somehow) and I can't kill the child process on the command line (have to close the image; the childs are not zombies) > >> >> aye... and with a bit of assembler black magic you can actually >> generate a code to call >> those two functions in same primitive, so you don't leave to interpreter at all. > > Cool :) Will be my last resort though. > > Regarding the "hanging" image: yes the child process is created but as the man page for fork() states that the parent will be suspended until the child is exec'ed. Therefore, having the image "hang" is expected because I can't exec the child. > > > Thanks for the help guys. > > Max > >> >> bit still it would be nice if it could work using two separate FFI calls. >> >>> Dave >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Looking at UnixOSProcessPlugin I see that there are some special things Dave did before forking and I'm wondering if these would be necessary with NB. In the method #forkAndExecInDirectory: >>>>>> 1. possible use of a sig handler >>>>>> 2. special secure mode handling (what's that?) >>>>>> 3. turn off the interval timer >>>>>> >>>>>> Any ideas? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Max >>>>>> >>>>>> On 21.11.2012, at 08:50, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 20.11.2012, at 21:56, David T. Lewis <lewis(a)mail.msen.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 05:46:14PM -0300, Igor Stasenko wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Providing bindings to fork/pipe kernel functions is piece of cake. >>>>>>>>> But writing a wrapper around it would be a bit of work.. but still it >>>>>>>>> is possible. And you should try. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And yes, using fork() stuff having many treacherous pitfalls, but >>>>>>>>> don't think that if you call this function from code written in C >>>>>>>>> instead of NB will make it less treacherous. >>>>>>>>> I think Dave can give some more input on that, because he also using >>>>>>>>> fork() in OSProcess. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In normal use, the fork() call is immediately followed by an exec(), so >>>>>>>> it is not tricky at all. The only thing that was tricky to do in OSProcess >>>>>>>> was forkSqueak() which forks the VM itself and then attempts to continue >>>>>>>> running. But that is really an unusual use case. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The system calls such as fork() and pipe() should work the same whether >>>>>>>> you are calling from FFI or from generated C in a primitive. You can >>>>>>>> find examples for many of these calls in OSProcess. In general, the >>>>>>>> interface to system calls and standard C library functions is in >>>>>>>> UnixOSProcessPlugin, and the associated glue to tie it into the image >>>>>>>> is in UnixOSProcessAccessor. I have not looked at it closely but I >>>>>>>> think that in some cases you could change the methods in UnixOSProcessAccessor >>>>>>>> to make FFI calls, at least in order to get something working initially >>>>>>>> (I don't know if the design of OSProcess is what you want, but it could >>>>>>>> get you started). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks Dave, that's good to know. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Max >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Igor Stasenko. >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> >

Nov. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Athens Documentation (was: Helping with Athens development)

by Camillo Bruni

>>> Of course, this is not makes class/method comments less important. >>> But i vote for online documentation first. >> >> Online documents are mainly for, let's say, lazy users of your system, >> currently we're still in core development, so I would go for the things >> needed by programmers. That is Examples, Class Comments and maybe method >> comments. >> > the problem is that many parts of it needs illustrations. it is better > to see once, than hear many times. > > for instance, tell me if you can understand this: > > path can have many contours, a new contour start either from 'close' command > or 'moveto' command which implicitly closes the current contour (for > fills, but not for strokes). > > using multiple contours in path, you can create hollow shapes by > defining intersecting shapes (per contour) > with different winding (clockwise /counterclockwise). if I have an example I can run with the vey same text you wrote I understand everything! And I think with something like Esteban's athen workspace that should be fairly easy to achieve. basic contour examples ====================== - path with 1 contour - path with 2 contours - some fancy example with complex contours Hollow shapes ============= - start with a rect - start with a rect with another rect cut out => I have running code I can copy paste, that is worth more than some text I have to transform into a running model in my head... => no graphs needed, all your visualizations are running code examples!

Nov. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Athens Documentation (was: Helping with Athens development)

by Igor Stasenko

On 23 November 2012 15:33, dimitris chloupis <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > I dont know if that is going to sound like a crazy idea or a difficult idea > but here it goes. I agree with you that included documentation is probably > much better than pdfs or htlm. Excuse me if that was not your point , but > that is certainly a belief of mine. > > For my project Ephestos , I was thinking of creating a small morphic window > that displays documentation 10 lines tops (no scrolling allowed) and has the > ability to offer tutorials step by step. Very similar to ProfStef tutorial, > I am a huge fan of learning like this coding. > > This is why I said I am very interested in how the onboard help system works > on Pharo. For me ideally If I can expand Pharo help system so that it can do > ProfStef like tutorials for Athens in a step by step process I think that > people will benefit a lot more than a pdf or hltm that is a long read. Of > course this help system expansion wont benefit only Athens user but it could > be used for documenting anything inside Pharo. > > If I could integrate the help system with system browser that would be even > better. I am open to any suggestions and criticism. > yeah.. it would be interesting to go that way.. self example: [ do something with athens here ] description: ' okay, here you can see we're drawing things blah blah ' You can look at AthensDemoMorph as a prototype for that. Use: AthensDemoMorph new openInWorld inspect and in inspector you can switch between figures using 'self nextFigure' or 'self prevFigure' turning it into nice window with illustration alongside of text describing it, is not too hard. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Athens Documentation (was: Helping with Athens development)

by Igor Stasenko

On 23 November 2012 15:23, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 2012-11-23, at 10:56, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 23 November 2012 13:57, dimitris chloupis <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >>> Thank you Igor , this was the type of answer I wanted . Ok I think I will >>> work first on documenting the code and creating a pdf that helps the user >>> understand how to use Athens. After I gain a very good insight through >>> documentation of how Athens works I start contributing code. I assume for >>> documenting code (adding doc strings to methods missing them) files out and >>> attaching them here will do or you want me to upload to my own project in >>> ss3 ? >>> >>> >> Well, i was thinking more about format which is available online. >> And because Athens documentation will absolutely require a lot of illustrations, >> i think best would be to use HTML for it. >> (or something which generates html ). >> Making a PDF out of it is not a big deal, isn't? > > yes! > - presence in the web is very important for people coming from the outside. > - in image documentation/examples are very important for development speed > > so yes, somthing like markdown can be easily converted to pdf, I use > http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ regularly to compile my outline notes > to nice pdfs ;) > >> Of course, this is not makes class/method comments less important. >> But i vote for online documentation first. > > Online documents are mainly for, let's say, lazy users of your system, > currently we're still in core development, so I would go for the things > needed by programmers. That is Examples, Class Comments and maybe method > comments. > the problem is that many parts of it needs illustrations. it is better to see once, than hear many times. for instance, tell me if you can understand this: path can have many contours, a new contour start either from 'close' command or 'moveto' command which implicitly closes the current contour (for fills, but not for strokes). using multiple contours in path, you can create hollow shapes by defining intersecting shapes (per contour) with different winding (clockwise /counterclockwise). > I am certainly a bit extreme on that, but I think investing time into > examples that explain the design is wort more. Also for me this is more > smalltalk. I hate reading prose text which is a fuzzy definition of something > whereas I could read a nicely documented example and debug and learn it! > >> Because most of people don't even understand the basic concepts of >> paths/contours and coordinate system.. >> and class comments are not really helpful for that > > I definitely agree on that (as we figured out with esteban, we were both > not that solid on this topic). But examples are much better, much more > interactive. > >> I wanna have something like Amber documentation: >> http://amber-lang.net/documentation.html > > well I you focus on examples you could revive my old WebDoc thingy that > will nicely format the source code and uses full markdown for all in-method > comments. > okay.. then (all) give me the list of examples what you wanna see. >> Also, as for the starting point, what things we should describe there, i think >> OpenVG spec could serve as a guiding source. >> >> www.khronos.org/registry/vg/specs/openvg_1_0_1.pdf >> >> it contains a lot of material which we can reuse for starters: >> matrices, coordinate system, >> paths and path commands etc. >> >> So, for getting started we much decide what source format we should use. >> and where we will host it (as an early-term solution i propose to just >> create a project on github). > > Go for examples! I want to have the most interactive documentation possible! > Otherwise, yes github + wiki is a low-resistance solution, though we should take > care that we have the information as well in the image :) > There is some examples in AthensSurfaceExamples. also, Athens-Morphic is a good source of examples. you can look what drawnOn: method doing and compare it with drawOnAthensCanvas: method for same morph. >> And then first step would be to make a TOC :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Athens Documentation (was: Helping with Athens development)

by dimitris chloupis

I dont know if that is going to sound like a crazy idea or a difficult idea but here it goes. I agree with you that included documentation is probably much better than pdfs or htlm. Excuse me if that was not your point , but that is certainly a belief of mine. For my project Ephestos , I was thinking of creating a small morphic window that displays documentation 10 lines tops (no scrolling allowed) and has the ability to offer tutorials step by step. Very similar to ProfStef tutorial, I am a huge fan of learning like this coding. This is why I said I am very interested in how the onboard help system works on Pharo. For me ideally If I can expand Pharo help system so that it can do ProfStef like tutorials for Athens in a step by step process I think that people will benefit a lot more than a pdf or hltm that is a long read. Of course this help system expansion wont benefit only Athens user but it could be used for documenting anything inside Pharo.Â If I could integrate the help system with system browser that would be even better. I am open to any suggestions and criticism. ________________________________ From: Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Friday, 23 November 2012, 16:23 Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Athens Documentation (was: Helping with Athens development) On 2012-11-23, at 10:56, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 23 November 2012 13:57, dimitris chloupis <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> Thank you Igor , this was the type of answer I wanted . Ok I think I will >> work first on documenting the code and creating a pdf that helps the user >> understand how to use Athens. After I gain a very good insight through >> documentation of how Athens works I start contributing code. I assume for >> documenting code (adding doc strings to methods missing them) files out and >> attaching them here will do or you want me to upload to my own project in >> ss3 ? >> >> > Well, i was thinking more about format which is available online. > And because Athens documentation will absolutely require a lot of illustrations, > i think best would be to use HTML for it. > (or something which generates html ). > Making a PDF out of it is not a big deal, isn't? yes! - presence in the web is very important for people coming from the outside. - in image documentation/examples are very important for development speed so yes, somthing like markdown can be easily converted to pdf, I use http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ regularly to compile my outline notes to nice pdfs ;) > Of course, this is not makes class/method comments less important. > But i vote for online documentation first. Online documents are mainly for, let's say, lazy users of your system, currently we're still in core development, so I would go for the things needed by programmers. That is Examples, Class Comments and maybe method comments. I am certainly a bit %xtreme on that, but I think investing time into examples that explain the design is wort more. Also for me this is more smalltalk. I hate reading prose text which is a fuzzy definition of something whereas I could read a nicely documented example and debug and learn it! > Because most of people don't even understand the basic concepts of > paths/contours and coordinate system.. > and class comments are not really helpful for that I definitely agree on that (as we figured out with esteban, we were both not that solid on this topic). But examples are much better, much more interactive. > I wanna have something like Amber documentation: > http://amber-lang.net/documentation.html well I you focus on examples you could revive my old WebDoc thingy that will nicely format the source code and uses full markdown for all in-method comments. > Also, as for the starting point, what things we should describe there, i think > OpenVG spec could serve as a guiding source. > > www.khronos.org/registry/vg/specs/openvg_1_0_1.pdf > > it contains a lot of material which we can reuse for starters: > matrices, coordinate system, > paths and path commands etc. > > So, for getting started we much decide what source format we should use. > and where we will host it (as an early-term solution i propose to just > create a project on github). Go for examples! I want to have the most interactive documentation possible! Otherwise, yes github + wiki is a low-resistance solution, though we should take care that we have the information as well in the image :) > And then first step would be to make a TOC :) > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Nov. 23, 2012