October 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > >> Don't say that camillo because this is the ultimate argument against communication. >> > Uh? Come on, Steph. That is something you can read frequently on the mailing list. This times just the roles have switched. So please be fair. Did you see me saying no feedback? Or only if you do you can give feedback? No and this is where the difference is. Of course doing is better and more difficult. If I remind correctly we value feedback, else I would not spend my satruday afternoon looking for bugs I do not have immediate value. Stef

Oct. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by Frank Shearar

On 1 October 2012 20:48, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 1 October 2012 20:44, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> It's all done for you anyway, in the git commit. Who changed what >> when, it's all done. >> > > right, but same applies to methods. so why storing method's stamps but > not classes? Yes, that's what I understood to be your annoyance: why store timestamps for all THESE things, but not THAT thing? I just mention git commits because they do just that: everything always has an author/timestamp. frank > either you consistently do all the turtles way down, or end up with > zoo full of alien species, where nobody can tell where are they came > from and why :) > > I don't have a readily available solution of how we can painlessly > migrate from stamps -> git commit stamps. > Maybe we don't need stamps for classes in the form like methods have > it, because maybe one day (especially for fresh projects), we can just > git stamps for everything. > > And, sure thing, it doesn't related to filetree alone, > because our development tools and metamodel inside images also lacks > this information. > But since we're talking about metainformation i wanted to note about > that as well, if nobody else noticed that our information about system > changes would be incomplete without this. > > >> frank >> >> On 1 October 2012 19:42, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> oh, and i forgot the most important thing: >>> >>> classes should also have a stamp, i.e. author and date (and perhaps mood ;). >>> Because it feels strange to me, that each method has stamp, even class >>> comments has stamp, >>> but not the classes. >>> What if my sole change is adding/removing variable(s) or changing a superclass? >>> This information (like who and when did that) is also very useful in >>> same way as for methods. >>> >>> Yes, i know that Squeak/Pharo does not support that, not sure about >>> other dialects. But we can do better isn't? >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko. >>> >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Oct. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by Igor Stasenko

On 1 October 2012 20:44, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> wrote: > It's all done for you anyway, in the git commit. Who changed what > when, it's all done. > right, but same applies to methods. so why storing method's stamps but not classes? either you consistently do all the turtles way down, or end up with zoo full of alien species, where nobody can tell where are they came from and why :) I don't have a readily available solution of how we can painlessly migrate from stamps -> git commit stamps. Maybe we don't need stamps for classes in the form like methods have it, because maybe one day (especially for fresh projects), we can just git stamps for everything. And, sure thing, it doesn't related to filetree alone, because our development tools and metamodel inside images also lacks this information. But since we're talking about metainformation i wanted to note about that as well, if nobody else noticed that our information about system changes would be incomplete without this. > frank > > On 1 October 2012 19:42, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> oh, and i forgot the most important thing: >> >> classes should also have a stamp, i.e. author and date (and perhaps mood ;). >> Because it feels strange to me, that each method has stamp, even class >> comments has stamp, >> but not the classes. >> What if my sole change is adding/removing variable(s) or changing a superclass? >> This information (like who and when did that) is also very useful in >> same way as for methods. >> >> Yes, i know that Squeak/Pharo does not support that, not sure about >> other dialects. But we can do better isn't? >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Oct. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by phil＠highoctane.be

Well, looks like a passionate person having had a bad day to me. Nothing to fret about, right? 2012/10/1 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > Sorry I should not have sent this mail. > I'm silly. > > Stef > > On Oct 1, 2012, at 7:00 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > > Hi guys > > > > I was browsing (at least trying) to have a look at mist > > > https://github.com/martinmcclure/mist/commit/b3103bd30be11dd8063aa9ce212a36… > > > > and this is so nice to see json code in the middle of Smalltalk methods. > Look for class definitions there are > > great. Yes it will help newcomers to jump into Smalltalk. So great. > > We avoided the XML crap as in VW but apparently we will not avoid the > shit of JSON. > > > > May be this is the clear indication that we should all stop to code in > Smalltalk (a dead language anyway) and all switch to Javascript > > in a plain happiness. Have a look this is great to read class > definitions and method categories like that. I love FileTree. I love JSON. > > > > What is terribly fun is that JSON could be good if we would not have a > declarative syntax for exactly the same but > > new is always better. So long life to FileTree and JSON. > > > > Stef > > PS: Of course you can all piss on me, do it if this helps you. > > Now tell me that I do not have to use GitHub to browse code and all kind > of nice argumentsâ¦ > > while at the same time, people are telling me the inverse. > > > > Yes I can stick with my old crappy browser and we will explain to our > students that we were not able to use > > the syntax of our language to express nicely the same. > > > > PSPS: so do not ask me any help and support for such idea. > > >

Oct. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by Jan van de Sandt

Hi, GÃ¶ran Krampe wrote a blog post about Smalltalk alternatives for JSON: [1] http://goran.krampe.se/2012/05/08/literal-arrays-vs-json-vs-ston-vs-tirade/ Jan. On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > On 01 Oct 2012, at 20:28, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > (If someone interested, lately we invented a "smalltalk object > > literals" which allow you to store any object into a textual file(s) > > using plain smalltalk array literal syntax, and read them back, but > > for this, of course, you will need smalltalk parser). > > Yes, I am interested ! > Any pointers ? > > > -- > Sven Van Caekenberghe > http://stfx.eu > Smalltalk is the Red Pill > > > > >

Oct. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by Norbert Hartl

Am 01.10.2012 um 21:29 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > Don't say that camillo because this is the ultimate argument against communication. > Uh? Come on, Steph. That is something you can read frequently on the mailing list. This times just the roles have switched. So please be fair. Norbert > > On Oct 1, 2012, at 8:44 PM, Camillo Bruni wrote: > >> how much did you contribute to this project igor? >> >> It's open-source, so stop complaning, start implementing! >> >> On 2012-10-01, at 20:42, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> oh, and i forgot the most important thing: >>> >>> classes should also have a stamp, i.e. author and date (and perhaps mood ;). >>> Because it feels strange to me, that each method has stamp, even class >>> comments has stamp, >>> but not the classes. >>> What if my sole change is adding/removing variable(s) or changing a superclass? >>> This information (like who and when did that) is also very useful in >>> same way as for methods. >>> >>> Yes, i know that Squeak/Pharo does not support that, not sure about >>> other dialects. But we can do better isn't? >> > >

Oct. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Oct 1, 2012, at 8:52 PM, Dale Henrichs wrote: > Stef, > > I forgot to share with you that at this last ESUG we (Jan Vrany, Martin Kobetic and myself) agreed that the next version of Filetree will use .ston files instead of .json files. I am planning on writing a blog post on thisâ¦eventually. Excellent! What I learned from the discussions and my own rage is that I would prefer to add a literal syntax for objects to have a JSON one. If people need a literal syntax why not. > The Smalltalk/X implementation (Jan Vrany) is using .ston files and version 2.0 of FileTree will using .ston files and I will be working on version 2.0 soon. Jan is planning on using Metacello with Smaltalk/X so I'll need to implement version 2.0 of FileTree to share code with himâ¦ > > .json files are on the way out! I love to hear that. Stef > > Dale > ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > | To: "Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Development" <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> > | Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 10:00:47 AM > | Subject: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree > | > | Hi guys > | > | I was browsing (at least trying) to have a look at mist > | https://github.com/martinmcclure/mist/commit/b3103bd30be11dd8063aa9ce212a36… > | > | and this is so nice to see json code in the middle of Smalltalk > | methods. Look for class definitions there are > | great. Yes it will help newcomers to jump into Smalltalk. So great. > | We avoided the XML crap as in VW but apparently we will not avoid the > | shit of JSON. > | > | May be this is the clear indication that we should all stop to code > | in Smalltalk (a dead language anyway) and all switch to Javascript > | in a plain happiness. Have a look this is great to read class > | definitions and method categories like that. I love FileTree. I love > | JSON. > | > | What is terribly fun is that JSON could be good if we would not have > | a declarative syntax for exactly the same but > | new is always better. So long life to FileTree and JSON. > | > | Stef > | PS: Of course you can all piss on me, do it if this helps you. > | Now tell me that I do not have to use GitHub to browse code and all > | kind of nice argumentsâ¦ > | while at the same time, people are telling me the inverse. > | > | Yes I can stick with my old crappy browser and we will explain to our > | students that we were not able to use > | the syntax of our language to express nicely the same. > | > | PSPS: so do not ask me any help and support for such idea. > | >

Oct. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by Igor Stasenko

On 1 October 2012 21:11, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > On 01 Oct 2012, at 20:28, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> (If someone interested, lately we invented a "smalltalk object >> literals" which allow you to store any object into a textual file(s) >> using plain smalltalk array literal syntax, and read them back, but >> for this, of course, you will need smalltalk parser). > > Yes, I am interested ! > Any pointers ? > wow. you're twice as interested (posted twice). Okay, i will fileout the experimental implementation and write in separate post about it :) > > -- > Sven Van Caekenberghe > http://stfx.eu > Smalltalk is the Red Pill > > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Oct. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Don't say that camillo because this is the ultimate argument against communication. Stef On Oct 1, 2012, at 8:44 PM, Camillo Bruni wrote: > how much did you contribute to this project igor? > > It's open-source, so stop complaning, start implementing! > > On 2012-10-01, at 20:42, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> oh, and i forgot the most important thing: >> >> classes should also have a stamp, i.e. author and date (and perhaps mood ;). >> Because it feels strange to me, that each method has stamp, even class >> comments has stamp, >> but not the classes. >> What if my sole change is adding/removing variable(s) or changing a superclass? >> This information (like who and when did that) is also very useful in >> same way as for methods. >> >> Yes, i know that Squeak/Pharo does not support that, not sure about >> other dialects. But we can do better isn't? >

Oct. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Another sad day] a nice example of the mess with json in FileTree

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Sorry I should not have sent this mail. I'm silly. Stef On Oct 1, 2012, at 7:00 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Hi guys > > I was browsing (at least trying) to have a look at mist > https://github.com/martinmcclure/mist/commit/b3103bd30be11dd8063aa9ce212a36… > > and this is so nice to see json code in the middle of Smalltalk methods. Look for class definitions there are > great. Yes it will help newcomers to jump into Smalltalk. So great. > We avoided the XML crap as in VW but apparently we will not avoid the shit of JSON. > > May be this is the clear indication that we should all stop to code in Smalltalk (a dead language anyway) and all switch to Javascript > in a plain happiness. Have a look this is great to read class definitions and method categories like that. I love FileTree. I love JSON. > > What is terribly fun is that JSON could be good if we would not have a declarative syntax for exactly the same but > new is always better. So long life to FileTree and JSON. > > Stef > PS: Of course you can all piss on me, do it if this helps you. > Now tell me that I do not have to use GitHub to browse code and all kind of nice argumentsâ¦ > while at the same time, people are telling me the inverse. > > Yes I can stick with my old crappy browser and we will explain to our students that we were not able to use > the syntax of our language to express nicely the same. > > PSPS: so do not ask me any help and support for such idea.

Oct. 1, 2012