October 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

Here we have IMHO an advantage and opportunity with Smalltalk for the web apps: *JavaScript is very hard for complex apps*. For the reasons others already expressed: lack of version control, strange errors, inadequate debugging, etc. That's why they are all that preprocessors like CoffeeScript and new MS TypeScript out there - to ease development and specially maintenance of any bit more complex JS web app. So, Aida plan is to use Amber to *emit* JavaScript code to the client while still preserve all the power and beauty of developing in classical Smalltalk environment: browsers, debuggers, inspectors, version control etc. And specially to develop and long-term maintain very complex web apps, which is currently near to impossible in plain JavaScript. Such Aida webapp will be still deployed to the server but with emitting JS to the client the app will actually run quite autonomous on the client, with just syncing data changes back to the server, while all UI interactions will happen locally on the client. Another Aida plan is to bring to the web all that Smalltalk has in 80's already on UI front: MVC, dependency mechanism with real-time updating all views, which are dependent on some data change, etc. And how MVC GUI architecture ideas from 80's look like? Read from in this book (which is from 90's actually): Smalltalk An Introduction to Application Development using VisualWorks http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks/HopkinsHoran/HopkinsHoran.pdf p.287: The Dependency Mechanism p.312: Introduction to Models, Views and Controllers Best regards Janko Dne 16. 10. 2012 02:43, piÅ¡e blake: > I've used Wakanda, WaveMaker and Sencha and a number of other one-stop > solutions and found them unsatisfactory for a variety of reasons. > > Wakanda requires you to use a particular DB (NoSQL?) and is rigid > about how you can lay out the tables. > > I remember, with WaveMaker, all the code ended up looking like: > > someObject.someOtherObject.yetAnotherObject.ownedObject.property.function() > = someObject.someOtherObject.yetAnotherObject.ownedObject.property.differentFunction() > * 0.5 > > The common feature these tools tend to have, in exchange for very > slick interfaces for putting together CRUD apps is a near total lack > of integration for all the things you come to expect as a modern > developer: version control and other collaboration tools, test suites, > refactoring, etc. > > But they definitely have the gee-whiz factor going for them. > > -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Oct. 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by dimitris chloupis

Frankly , I don't find web development that much useful and certainly don't believe that web is the future. My money is on the desktop. The very fact that the most popular web app, by far nowdays is facebook and the very fact that if you took facebook out today people would lose nothing in practicality tells so much about what web is all about. Web is not all bad of course, its still without any doubt the library of Alexandria but most of it , its just pointless way of killing your free time. The trend is to push web to the desktop and I think that has been proven a very bad idea. Web technology is based on some very bad design decisions and it makes me laugh when technologies like node.js take the web world by storm when desktop has similar technologies for far too long. If you looks carefully you will also see that Desktop is more and more pushing to the web, so for me it looks like web development is not going to have much of a chance. Many existing programming languages are already compiling to js, but even in that case why even bother ? IT makes sense for mobile devices , but what will happen if for example pharo and squeak start making ports for those mobile devices . Why bother with JS at all ? I try to make a visual coding project and I did consider amber and some js libraries and to my surprise the only dynamic graphic library I found of some serious usefulness was processing.js and its just too slow for what I want to achieve. And if you think about all those so called web technologies are really sandboxed , limited and slow desktop technologies. I still find the fact that a browser can run anywhere extremely tempting but in the end I dont think its really worth it. And yes I disagree with the video of trying to say that web is like electricity. When electricity came out there was nothing like it, with the web its very diffirent because not only desktop can do many of the things that web can , all web technologies are practically desktop technologies. Also even if you take a look at how much Desktop has progressed 10 years and how much the web , even though the web is super hyped those past 10 years you will get a very clear picture of how things really are. I dont think squeak or pharo should turn their backs to the web technologies , js and all others (and I love the fact that projects like amber do exist) but I would prefer if more effort is spent on making sure that they work on all platforms equally good. >From where I am standing there is no competitiveness in usefulness when it comes to JS and web technology there is just competitiveness in popularity and hype. And I would rather prefer if pharo and squeak dont play that game and continue being actually useful , innovative , easy to use , technologies. Web is certainly tempting but in the end its an empty promise.Â Â ________________________________ From: "sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com" <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Monday, 15 October 2012, 23:02 Subject: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere Hi guys, all comparisons are unfair I know but this is only to make you guy aware of this (please ignore if you're already). Here is the thing: The Jeff Bezos' Electricity Metaphor: http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_bezos_on_the_next_web_innovation.html Makes (probably) any smalltalker remember the Alan Kay's talk about having in the internet an IP for every object and spectacular computer science ideas like that. The js everywhere trend makes a lot of sense. Once it achieves critical mass it might tempt intel and friends to do some hardware accelerator for js VM's. Who knows. We have a long way to go but, in the meantime, all js staked frameworks make a lot of sense and WILL get traction because of that. Example: http://www.wakanda.org/ A talk here: https://vimeo.com/31603156 So.. the unfair question here would be: What we'll have to match that competitiveness? sebastian o/ PS: Pharo + WebSockets + Amber sounds in that line doesn't?

Oct. 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] [update 1.4/2.0] fix for .sh in One-Click

by Marcus Denker

Issue 6718: broken symlink call to start script / missing parameter call http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6718 -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Oct. 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] [update 2.0] #20343

by Marcus Denker

20343 ----- Issue 6817: Properly Prune Pending Finalization Items http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6817 Issue 5546: openProcessBrowserAsMorph: has nothing to do on MorphicUIManager http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5546 -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Oct. 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Fuel for Squeak stupid questions

by Max Leske

I checked against build 11925 (found here: http://ftp.squeak.org/trunk/) Did you get your image from somewhere else? I can take a look at the image if you like. You'd just have to put it somewhere for me to download (together with the changes of course). Max On 15.10.2012, at 22:19, "Edgar J. De Cleene" <edgardec2005(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 10/15/12 5:10 PM, "Max Leske" <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hey Edgar >> >> I checked the Fuel tests in a 4.4 image and there are no differences to the >> 4.3 image. >> If you still have that problem with the failing Date test then you probably >> have an issue with the code you loaded in addition. One package that would >> break that test is PostgresV2 because that packages overrides #year:month:day: >> in Date and DateAndTime. >> >> Cheers, >> Max > > I re check, do not remember any I made change Date. > > Thanks > > Edgar > > >

Oct. 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by Igor Stasenko

On 15 October 2012 22:02, <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > Hi guys, > > all comparisons are unfair I know but this is only to make you guy aware of this (please ignore if you're already). > > Here is the thing: > > The Jeff Bezos' Electricity Metaphor: > http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_bezos_on_the_next_web_innovation.html > after watching this vid, i want to paraphrase his last sentence: your your brain for more than js :) > Makes (probably) any smalltalker remember the Alan Kay's talk about having in the internet an IP for every object and spectacular computer science ideas like that. > > The js everywhere trend makes a lot of sense. Once it achieves critical mass it might tempt intel and friends to do some hardware accelerator for js VM's. Who knows. We have a long way to go but, in the meantime, all js staked frameworks make a lot of sense and WILL get traction because of that. Example: > > http://www.wakanda.org/ > > A talk here: > https://vimeo.com/31603156 > > So.. the unfair question here would be: > > What we'll have to match that competitiveness? > > sebastian > > o/ > > PS: Pharo + WebSockets + Amber sounds in that line doesn't? > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Oct. 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by blake

I've used Wakanda, WaveMaker and Sencha and a number of other one-stop solutions and found them unsatisfactory for a variety of reasons. Wakanda requires you to use a particular DB (NoSQL?) and is rigid about how you can lay out the tables. I remember, with WaveMaker, all the code ended up looking like: someObject.someOtherObject.yetAnotherObject.ownedObject.property.function() = someObject.someOtherObject.yetAnotherObject.ownedObject.property.differentFunction() * 0.5 The common feature these tools tend to have, in exchange for very slick interfaces for putting together CRUD apps is a near total lack of integration for all the things you come to expect as a modern developer: version control and other collaboration tools, test suites, refactoring, etc. But they definitely have the gee-whiz factor going for them.

Oct. 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] What do you want in a talk?

by sebastian＠flowingconcept.com

...about "Objects, Open Source Software and Startups" ? the thing is I was invited to give a talk in Latinoware 2012: http://2012.latinoware.org/en/ and I'm still preparing the talk so I'd love to hear suggestions on what you think people might found interesting about objects and open source and startups. The plan is to talk a little about economics innovation and startups done in Pharo and Amber, which is my main experience at flowing but I'd very much like to hear what you guys have as additional suggestions/experiences So, I'm all ears :) what did you found so interesting in your experience working with objects? sebastian o/

Oct. 15, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

> So.. the unfair question here would be: > > What we'll have to match that competitiveness? Aida/Web :) Watch few more months for Smalltalk MVC revival on the web app front-end with Aida, as so many JavaScript frameworks are doing right now (Backbone, Ember, Knockout, Angular, etc. etc.). And in real-time (WebSocket enabled)... A big plus over JS: component based! Janko Dne 15. 10. 2012 22:02, piÅ¡e sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com: > Hi guys, > > all comparisons are unfair I know but this is only to make you guy aware of this (please ignore if you're already). > > Here is the thing: > > The Jeff Bezos' Electricity Metaphor: > http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_bezos_on_the_next_web_innovation.html > > Makes (probably) any smalltalker remember the Alan Kay's talk about having in the internet an IP for every object and spectacular computer science ideas like that. > > The js everywhere trend makes a lot of sense. Once it achieves critical mass it might tempt intel and friends to do some hardware accelerator for js VM's. Who knows. We have a long way to go but, in the meantime, all js staked frameworks make a lot of sense and WILL get traction because of that. Example: > > http://www.wakanda.org/ > > A talk here: > https://vimeo.com/31603156 > > So.. the unfair question here would be: > > What we'll have to match that competitiveness? > > sebastian > > o/ > > PS: Pharo + WebSockets + Amber sounds in that line doesn't? > > -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Oct. 15, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by Camillo Bruni

well everything that beats js fsucked up semantics... I just hear I voice in my head Array(16).join("lol" - 2) + " Batman!"; so in that matter, yes Amber good, and no javascript bad! On 2012-10-15, at 22:02, sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com wrote: > Hi guys, > > all comparisons are unfair I know but this is only to make you guy aware of this (please ignore if you're already). > > Here is the thing: > > The Jeff Bezos' Electricity Metaphor: > http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_bezos_on_the_next_web_innovation.html > > Makes (probably) any smalltalker remember the Alan Kay's talk about having in the internet an IP for every object and spectacular computer science ideas like that. > > The js everywhere trend makes a lot of sense. Once it achieves critical mass it might tempt intel and friends to do some hardware accelerator for js VM's. Who knows. We have a long way to go but, in the meantime, all js staked frameworks make a lot of sense and WILL get traction because of that. Example: > > http://www.wakanda.org/ > > A talk here: > https://vimeo.com/31603156 > > So.. the unfair question here would be: > > What we'll have to match that competitiveness? > > sebastian > > o/ > > PS: Pharo + WebSockets + Amber sounds in that line doesn't? >

Oct. 15, 2012