October 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] pharo-2.0-tests Â» linux - Build # 414 - Still Failing!

by jenkins-pharo.ci.inria.fr＠jenkins-server.lille.inria.fr

Oct. 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] pharo-2.0-tests Â» win - Build # 413 - Still Failing!

by jenkins-pharo.ci.inria.fr＠jenkins-server.lille.inria.fr

Oct. 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

Dne 16. 10. 2012 12:10, piÅ¡e dimitris chloupis: > I dont have the habbit of making general claims or expressing general > opinion when it come to coding which is a practical field. > > My 2 areas of interest is sound synthesis and graphics. Apple has > promised html5 as the replacement to flash technology. Flash is mainly a > desktop technology masked as web technology . Html5 is still extremely > slow, at least some comparison I have tried. Webgl is partially > supported and very much slow still. Library wise for graphics I could > find maybe 4, 5 libraries to work with Javascript. Javascript is a > programming language like anything else but many of the technologies I > need to learn like DOM , XML , hmtl etc look weird , ugly and not that > useful compared to my experience with for example morphic or desktop gui > and graphic libraries. I know a few web developers they do complain a > lot about the state of web technology in general and the problems that > have to deal with. > > Especially in graphics and audio field, library wise desktop and the web > are like night and day. > > And all that for js , which is the good case as soon as we enter php and > drupal territory the horror stories just explode. I had my share of bad > experiences , C++ MFC was also a nightmare to manage but back then > things coding wise were not as complex they are today. I brought > facebook as an example because not talking about facebook while talking > about web is like talking about OS and not talking about windows. > > I have not any doubts that a capable coder will be able to make an > exceptional good web application. Afterall I use one , dropbox , and I > just would not want to live without it because it safe guards all my > work documents. So my point was not that web development is not good, or > that is not that future. My point is that with the state of web > libraries, we will see more and more desktop languages and libraries > penetrating the web (python and webgl for example) to that extend that > web will be nothing more than extension of desktop development. If some > choose to state that as web development , thats great for them , its not > for me. > > When I see for example smalltalk , I see a language that is pretty much > unknown yet its the language that is the most copied from by any kind of > technology. Innovative products don't become popular but they do drive > the future behind the curtains. Popular products tend to take all the > credit but contribute almost nothing. > > My only concern is if we try to make smalltalk fit the style of the web, > wont that mean that we compromise the quality of smalltalk libraries ? > If we try to make desktop comply with web standards wont that lower the > bar ? Would not be much better if we just port well proven desktop > technologies to the web as it is already hapenning ( see WebGL) ? > > I dont have a doubt that HMTL5 will have a long future . I dont have a > doubt that Web technology will improve , JS for example has come a long > way. I do think already web development is overtaken by desktop > development in many fields, mainly because its not prudent to just throw > to the bin all those well proven desktop technologies. We just make sure > they work in browser. > > I continue learning JS (amber too) and web technologies and I hope for > the best. I only wanted to present a point of view that is rarely seen > when someone talks about the web and . I Feel I am not the only one > frustrated with the direction web is taking, its not an infancy problem > its a problem of very bad foundation and coding style. Its something I > experienced a lot while coding in C++ and Java. It may be just me and I > dont mind if someone will disagree with me. > > I am also happy that smalltalk creates its own web libraries that do > follow closely the standards set by the language itself. I only hope > that continues. This is exactly what we should IMHO continue to do. That is, to cultivate the wild web with Smalltalk elegance and beauty :) Best regards Janko > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Janko MivÅ¡ek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> > *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > *Cc:* Aida/Web general discussion list <aida(a)aidaweb.si> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 16 October 2012, 12:29 > *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js > everywhere > > Hi Dimitris, > > I wont judge the success of the web approach just by few failed > attempts, (and by Facebook :). Web technologies certainly have a > potential to replace GUI ones on the desktop and became an universal UI > technology. Universal in the sense that it run everywhere, on all > platforms, you don't need to care about native look&feel, no need to > program for Android, then for iOS, then for Win mobile, etc. Universal > also in sense that it covers 99% of apps, while for remaining 1% we will > still develop in native environments. > > And this replacing is actually happening with faster and faster speed. > Even Microsoft finally gave up and announce to support web trio (HTML5, > CSS, JS) in Windows 8. Two years ago they even announced that web trio > will remain their only technology for the client. > > We are yet at the beginning of that process, web app development is > still in its infancy comparing to GUI ones. Adequate dev.tools are > lacking. And there are always a risk that some technology goes the wrong > way, as went for instance SOA (Service Oriented Arcitecture), XML also, > Java, etc. HTML5 is currently such a fast growing thing that it can goes > the same path and end up just too complex to use. As in case of SOA or XML. > > But on the other hand web browser vendors are incredible cooperative > this time, they usually don't just agree on some bad and complex > compromise (as it was case on SOA and XML) but are successful to find > the best and specially, the simplest API at the end. This gives us a big > hope that HTML5 will have a long future and to actually become an > universal UI. Well, JavaScript, here the story is more complex... > > Best regards > Janko > > Dne 16. 10. 2012 09:55, piÅ¡e dimitris chloupis: >> Frankly , I don't find web development that much useful and certainly >> don't believe that web is the future. My money is on the desktop. >> >> The very fact that the most popular web app, by far nowdays is facebook >> and the very fact that if you took facebook out today people would lose >> nothing in practicality tells so much about what web is all about. Web >> is not all bad of course, its still without any doubt the library of >> Alexandria but most of it , its just pointless way of killing your free >> time. >> >> The trend is to push web to the desktop and I think that has been proven >> a very bad idea. Web technology is based on some very bad design >> decisions and it makes me laugh when technologies like node.js take the >> web world by storm when desktop has similar technologies for far too long. >> >> If you looks carefully you will also see that Desktop is more and more >> pushing to the web, so for me it looks like web development is not going >> to have much of a chance. Many existing programming languages are >> already compiling to js, but even in that case why even bother ? IT >> makes sense for mobile devices , but what will happen if for example >> pharo and squeak start making ports for those mobile devices . Why >> bother with JS at all ? >> >> I try to make a visual coding project and I did consider amber and some >> js libraries and to my surprise the only dynamic graphic library I found >> of some serious usefulness was processing.js and its just too slow for >> what I want to achieve. And if you think about all those so called web >> technologies are really sandboxed , limited and slow desktop technologies. >> >> I still find the fact that a browser can run anywhere extremely tempting >> but in the end I dont think its really worth it. And yes I disagree with >> the video of trying to say that web is like electricity. When >> electricity came out there was nothing like it, with the web its very >> diffirent because not only desktop can do many of the things that web >> can , all web technologies are practically desktop technologies. Also >> even if you take a look at how much Desktop has progressed 10 years and >> how much the web , even though the web is super hyped those past 10 >> years you will get a very clear picture of how things really are. >> >> I dont think squeak or pharo should turn their backs to the web >> technologies , js and all others (and I love the fact that projects like >> amber do exist) but I would prefer if more effort is spent on making >> sure that they work on all platforms equally good. >> >> From where I am standing there is no competitiveness in usefulness when >> it comes to JS and web technology there is just competitiveness in >> popularity and hype. And I would rather prefer if pharo and squeak dont >> play that game and continue being actually useful , innovative , easy to >> use , technologies. Web is certainly tempting but in the end its an >> empty promise. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* "sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com > <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>" <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com > <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>> >> *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > <mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> >> *Sent:* Monday, 15 October 2012, 23:02 >> *Subject:* [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js >> everywhere >> >> Hi guys, >> >> all comparisons are unfair I know but this is only to make you guy aware >> of this (please ignore if you're already). >> >> Here is the thing: >> >> The Jeff Bezos' Electricity Metaphor: >> http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_bezos_on_the_next_web_innovation.html >> >> Makes (probably) any smalltalker remember the Alan Kay's talk about >> having in the internet an IP for every object and spectacular computer >> science ideas like that. >> >> The js everywhere trend makes a lot of sense. Once it achieves critical >> mass it might tempt intel and friends to do some hardware accelerator >> for js VM's. Who knows. We have a long way to go but, in the meantime, >> all js staked frameworks make a lot of sense and WILL get traction >> because of that. Example: >> >> http://www.wakanda.org/ >> >> A talk here: >> https://vimeo.com/31603156 >> >> So.. the unfair question here would be: >> >> What we'll have to match that competitiveness? >> >> sebastian >> >> o/ >> >> PS: Pharo + WebSockets + Amber sounds in that line doesn't? >> >> >> > > -- > Janko MivÅ¡ek > Aida/Web > Smalltalk Web Application Server > http://www.aidaweb.si <http://www.aidaweb.si/> > > > -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Oct. 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] pharo-2.0-tests Â» mac - Build # 413 - Still Failing!

by jenkins-pharo.ci.inria.fr＠jenkins-server.lille.inria.fr

Oct. 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] pharo-2.0-tests Â» linux - Build # 413 - Still Failing!

by jenkins-pharo.ci.inria.fr＠jenkins-server.lille.inria.fr

Oct. 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by dimitris chloupis

I dont have the habbit of making general claims or expressing general opinion when it come to coding which is a practical field. My 2 areas of interest is sound synthesis and graphics. Apple has promised html5 as the replacement to flash technology. Flash is mainly a desktop technology masked as web technology . Html5 is still extremely slow, at least some comparison I have tried. Webgl is partially supported and very much slow still. Library wise for graphics I could find maybe 4, 5 libraries to work with Javascript. Javascript is a programming language like anything else but many of the technologies I need to learn like DOM , XML , hmtl etc look weird , ugly and not that useful compared to my experience with for example morphic or desktop gui and graphic libraries. I know a few web developers they do complain a lot about the state of web technology in general and the problems that have to deal with. Especially in graphics and audio field, library wise desktop and the web are like night and day. And all that for js , which is the good case as soon as we enter php and drupal territory the horror stories just explode. I had my share of bad experiences , C++ MFC was also a nightmare to manage but back then things coding wise were not as complex they are today. I brought facebook as an example because not talking about facebook while talking about web is like talking about OS and not talking about windows. I have not any doubts that a capable coder will be able to make an exceptional good web application. Afterall I use one , dropbox , and I just would not want to live without it because it safe guards all my work documents. So my point was not that web development is not good, or that is not that future. My point is that with the state of web libraries, we will see more and more desktop languages and libraries penetrating the web (python and webgl for example) to that extend that web will be nothing more than extension of desktop development. If some choose to state that as web development , thats great for them , its not for me. When I see for example smalltalk , I see a language that is pretty much unknown yet its the language that is the most copied from by any kind of technology. Innovative products don't become popular but they do drive the future behind the curtains. Popular products tend to take all the credit but contribute almost nothing. My only concern is if we try to make smalltalk fit the style of the web, wont that mean that we compromise the quality of smalltalk libraries ? If we try to make desktop comply with web standards wont that lower the bar ? Would not be much better if we just port well proven desktop technologies to the web as it is already hapenning ( see WebGL) ? I dont have a doubt that HMTL5 will have a long future .Â I dont have a doubt that Web technology will improve , JS for example has come a long way. I do think already web development is overtaken by desktop development in many fields, mainly because its not prudent to just throw to the bin all those well proven desktop technologies. We just make sure they work in browser.Â I continue learning JS (amber too) and web technologies and I hope for the best. I only wanted to present a point of view that is rarely seen when someone talks about the web and . I Feel I am not the only one frustrated with the direction web is taking, its not an infancy problem its a problem of very bad foundation and coding style. Its something I experienced a lot while coding in C++ and Java. It may be just me and I dont mind if someone will disagree with me. I am also happy that smalltalk creates its own web libraries that do follow closely the standards set by the language itself. I only hope that continues. ________________________________ From: Janko MivÅ¡ek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Cc: Aida/Web general discussion list <aida(a)aidaweb.si> Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2012, 12:29 Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere Hi Dimitris, I wont judge the success of the web approach just by few failed attempts, (and by Facebook :). Web technologies certainly have a potential to replace GUI ones on the desktop and became an universal UI technology. Universal in the sense that it run everywhere, on all platforms, you don't need to care about native look&feel, no need to program for Android, then for iOS, then for Win mobile, etc. Universal also in sense that it covers 99% of apps, while for remaining 1% we will still develop in native environments. And this replacing is actually happening with faster and faster speed. Even Microsoft finally gave up and announce to support web trio (HTML5, CSS, JS) in Windows 8. Two years ago they even announced that web trio will remain their only technology for the client. We are yet at the beginning of that process, web app development is still in its infancy comparing to GUI ones. Adequate dev.tools are lacking. And there are always a risk that some technology goes the wrong way, as went for instance SOA (Service Oriented Arcitecture), XML also, Java, etc. HTML5 is currently such a fast growing thing that it can goes the same path and end up just too complex to use. As in case of SOA or XML. But on the other hand web browser vendors are incredible cooperative this time, they usually don't just agree on some bad and complex compromise (as it was case on SOA and XML) but are successful to find the best and specially, the simplest API at the end. This gives us a big hope that HTML5 will have a long future and to actually become an universal UI. Well, JavaScript, here the story is more complex... Best regards Janko Dne 16. 10. 2012 09:55, piÅ¡e dimitris chloupis: > Frankly , I don't find web development that much useful and certainly > don't believe that web is the future. My money is on the desktop. > > The very fact that the most popular web app, by far nowdays is facebook > and the very fact that if you took facebook out today people would lose > nothing in practicality tells so much about what web is all about. Web > is not all bad of course, its still without any doubt the library of > Alexandria but most of it , its just pointless way of killing your free > time. > > The trend is to push web to the desktop and I think that has been proven > a very bad idea. Web technology is based on some very bad design > decisions and it makes me laugh when technologies like node.js take the > web world by storm when desktop has similar technologies for far too long. > > If you looks carefully you will also see that Desktop is more and more > pushing to the web, so for me it looks like web development is not going > to have much of a chance. Many existing programming languages are > already compiling to js, but even in that case why even bother ? IT > makes sense for mobile devices , but what will happen if for example > pharo and squeak start making ports for those mobile devices . Why > bother with JS at all ? > > I try to make a visual coding project and I did consider amber and some > js libraries and to my surprise the only dynamic graphic library I found > of some serious usefulness was processing.js and its just too slow for > what I want to achieve. And if you think about all those so called web > technologies are really sandboxed , limited and slow desktop technologies. > > I still find the fact that a browser can run anywhere extremely tempting > but in the end I dont think its really worth it. And yes I disagree with > the video of trying to say that web is like electricity. When > electricity came out there was nothing like it, with the web its very > diffirent because not only desktop can do many of the things that web > can , all web technologies are practically desktop technologies. Also > even if you take a look at how much Desktop has progressed 10 years and > how much the web , even though the web is super hyped those past 10 > years you will get a very clear picture of how things really are. > > I dont think squeak or pharo should turn their backs to the web > technologies , js and all others (and I love the fact that projects like > amber do exist) but I would prefer if more effort is spent on making > sure that they work on all platforms equally good. > > From where I am standing there is no competitiveness in usefulness when > it comes to JS and web technology there is just competitiveness in > popularity and hype. And I would rather prefer if pharo and squeak dont > play that game and continue being actually useful , innovative , easy to > use , technologies. Web is certainly tempting but in the end its an > empty promise.Â > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com" <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> > *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > *Sent:* Monday, 15 October 2012, 23:02 > *Subject:* [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js > everywhere > > Hi guys, > > all comparisons are unfair I know but this is only to make you guy aware > of this (please ignore if you're already). > > Here is the thing: > > The Jeff Bezos' Electricity Metaphor: > http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_bezos_on_the_next_web_innovation.html > > Makes (probably) any smalltalker remember the Alan Kay's talk about > having in the internet an IP for every object and spectacular computer > science ideas like that. > > The js everywhere trend makes a lot of sense. Once it achieves critical > mass it might tempt intel and friends to do some hardware accelerator > for js VM's. Who knows. We have a long way to go but, in the meantime, > all js staked frameworks make a lot of sense and WILL get traction > because of that. Example: > > http://www.wakanda.org/ > > A talk here: > https://vimeo.com/31603156 > > So.. the unfair question here would be: > > What we'll have to match that competitiveness? > > sebastian > > o/ > > PS: Pharo + WebSockets + Amber sounds in that line doesn't? > > > -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Oct. 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by Marten Feldtmann

With HTML and the upcoming WebSockets standard we will see a shift in web programming. Web applications are getting true client server systems in a much more difficult environment than a traditional (high-speed, low latency) company IT world. Than on the other hand - and we've seen examples in the smalltalk world already - solution will be available to produce desktop apps (using the same technology as mentioned above - but in an all-in-one-server app) and Internet based web applications. The base key technologies in this area will be how to handle the client approach and what the part of Smalltalk can be here and a way to do data exchange between internet database and local database. The server part ? Well integrate the WebSocket technology by the vendors and free Smalltalk projects and you have Smalltalk there. Marten

Oct. 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js everywhere

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

Hi Dimitris, I wont judge the success of the web approach just by few failed attempts, (and by Facebook :). Web technologies certainly have a potential to replace GUI ones on the desktop and became an universal UI technology. Universal in the sense that it run everywhere, on all platforms, you don't need to care about native look&feel, no need to program for Android, then for iOS, then for Win mobile, etc. Universal also in sense that it covers 99% of apps, while for remaining 1% we will still develop in native environments. And this replacing is actually happening with faster and faster speed. Even Microsoft finally gave up and announce to support web trio (HTML5, CSS, JS) in Windows 8. Two years ago they even announced that web trio will remain their only technology for the client. We are yet at the beginning of that process, web app development is still in its infancy comparing to GUI ones. Adequate dev.tools are lacking. And there are always a risk that some technology goes the wrong way, as went for instance SOA (Service Oriented Arcitecture), XML also, Java, etc. HTML5 is currently such a fast growing thing that it can goes the same path and end up just too complex to use. As in case of SOA or XML. But on the other hand web browser vendors are incredible cooperative this time, they usually don't just agree on some bad and complex compromise (as it was case on SOA and XML) but are successful to find the best and specially, the simplest API at the end. This gives us a big hope that HTML5 will have a long future and to actually become an universal UI. Well, JavaScript, here the story is more complex... Best regards Janko Dne 16. 10. 2012 09:55, piÅ¡e dimitris chloupis: > Frankly , I don't find web development that much useful and certainly > don't believe that web is the future. My money is on the desktop. > > The very fact that the most popular web app, by far nowdays is facebook > and the very fact that if you took facebook out today people would lose > nothing in practicality tells so much about what web is all about. Web > is not all bad of course, its still without any doubt the library of > Alexandria but most of it , its just pointless way of killing your free > time. > > The trend is to push web to the desktop and I think that has been proven > a very bad idea. Web technology is based on some very bad design > decisions and it makes me laugh when technologies like node.js take the > web world by storm when desktop has similar technologies for far too long. > > If you looks carefully you will also see that Desktop is more and more > pushing to the web, so for me it looks like web development is not going > to have much of a chance. Many existing programming languages are > already compiling to js, but even in that case why even bother ? IT > makes sense for mobile devices , but what will happen if for example > pharo and squeak start making ports for those mobile devices . Why > bother with JS at all ? > > I try to make a visual coding project and I did consider amber and some > js libraries and to my surprise the only dynamic graphic library I found > of some serious usefulness was processing.js and its just too slow for > what I want to achieve. And if you think about all those so called web > technologies are really sandboxed , limited and slow desktop technologies. > > I still find the fact that a browser can run anywhere extremely tempting > but in the end I dont think its really worth it. And yes I disagree with > the video of trying to say that web is like electricity. When > electricity came out there was nothing like it, with the web its very > diffirent because not only desktop can do many of the things that web > can , all web technologies are practically desktop technologies. Also > even if you take a look at how much Desktop has progressed 10 years and > how much the web , even though the web is super hyped those past 10 > years you will get a very clear picture of how things really are. > > I dont think squeak or pharo should turn their backs to the web > technologies , js and all others (and I love the fact that projects like > amber do exist) but I would prefer if more effort is spent on making > sure that they work on all platforms equally good. > > From where I am standing there is no competitiveness in usefulness when > it comes to JS and web technology there is just competitiveness in > popularity and hype. And I would rather prefer if pharo and squeak dont > play that game and continue being actually useful , innovative , easy to > use , technologies. Web is certainly tempting but in the end its an > empty promise. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com" <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> > *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > *Sent:* Monday, 15 October 2012, 23:02 > *Subject:* [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js > everywhere > > Hi guys, > > all comparisons are unfair I know but this is only to make you guy aware > of this (please ignore if you're already). > > Here is the thing: > > The Jeff Bezos' Electricity Metaphor: > http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_bezos_on_the_next_web_innovation.html > > Makes (probably) any smalltalker remember the Alan Kay's talk about > having in the internet an IP for every object and spectacular computer > science ideas like that. > > The js everywhere trend makes a lot of sense. Once it achieves critical > mass it might tempt intel and friends to do some hardware accelerator > for js VM's. Who knows. We have a long way to go but, in the meantime, > all js staked frameworks make a lot of sense and WILL get traction > because of that. Example: > > http://www.wakanda.org/ > > A talk here: > https://vimeo.com/31603156 > > So.. the unfair question here would be: > > What we'll have to match that competitiveness? > > sebastian > > o/ > > PS: Pharo + WebSockets + Amber sounds in that line doesn't? > > > -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Oct. 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] getting ready to move to beta

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi guys, I want to move pharo 2.0 to beta status in a near future (let's say monday 5 of november). What does that means? - no more changes/cleanups/removals/deprecations - no more enhancements - no more "cool integrations" - just bugfixes so... what do you think? how far are we to achieve that? Esteban

Oct. 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] Test Running / Progress broken ?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Test Running or its interactive progress handling seems to be brokenâ¦ #20342 -- Sven Van Caekenberghe http://stfx.eu Smalltalk is the Red Pill

Oct. 16, 2012