January 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Stefan Marr

Hi: On 12 Jan 2012, at 12:56, Gerry Weaver wrote: > I guess some examples of what I'm wishing for would be: > 1. A code editor that will allow editing a complete class in one go (with code folding etc.) That is also the one and most important point for me. I always miss my context. Smalltalk's browser style where you need a new window for every semantic entity just does the opposite. It hides away context/invariants and does not allow my to benefit from my spacial+visual memory that helps to related to code normally. Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

Jan. 12, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jan 12, 2012, at 1:14 PM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: > From reusable components I want two main things > > - ability to change appearance and behavior of component when I use it iniside different component > - ability to subclass component and specify different appearance and behavior for created child component class > > "Mainstream UI designer-approaches" does not get me this stuff. > So it is forced me to copy UI code again and again and stop object programming. yes I see. Did you publish your code? So that we can have a look? Because I would like to have it more static because I remember that you used a lot properties. > 2012/1/12 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2012/1/12 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > but UI building is just one part of the story. If after you just get a long initialize methods then nothing gets really reused. > > > Yes, > It is reason why I hate VisualStudio and Delphi approaches. It is imposible to create reusable components of user interface applications. > > ??? Haven't use Delphi for +4 years but from Delphi 3 -> 7 it was not really hard to create reusable components, extend them and the IDE itself...... > > Laurent >

Jan. 12, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Denis Kudriashov

>From reusable components I want two main things - ability to change appearance and behavior of component when I use it iniside different component - ability to subclass component and specify different appearance and behavior for created child component class "Mainstream UI designer-approaches" does not get me this stuff. So it is forced me to copy UI code again and again and stop object programming. 2012/1/12 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>wrote: > >> 2012/1/12 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >> >>> >>> but UI building is just one part of the story. If after you just get a >>> long initialize methods then nothing gets really reused. >>> >>> >> Yes, >> It is reason why I hate VisualStudio and Delphi approaches. It is >> imposible to create reusable components of user interface applications. >> > > ??? Haven't use Delphi for +4 years but from Delphi 3 -> 7 it was not > really hard to create reusable components, extend them and the IDE > itself...... > > Laurent >

Jan. 12, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Gerry Weaver

Hi Stefan, > Because I fear that you are talking about what I used to know as Borland Delphi.(http://www.blichmann.de/en/programming/delphi/themeddelphi/luna.png) > Not that it is bad, but like Visual Studio and Eclipse, the main concepts are IMO as dated as what you got in Pharo. Actually, it's now Embarcadero Delphi, but yes that's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the visual aspect of the environment. What I'm talking about is the dockable windows and the tight integration of the different IDE components. For example, you double click a button and your placed in a code stub for the click event in the editor. You don't have to go hunting for things. For example, one thing I don't like about VisualWorks is the gui framework. It's gets in the way with imposed MVC. If a developer wants to use MVC then they can code that way, but I don't think it is the IDE's or framework's job to force it. It just needs to be a simple event based model. Actually, when it comes to gui toolkits Nokia Qt is the best. MVC is an option, but not forced. You could use QtCreator as a substitute for Delphi above. The idea is still the same. I guess some examples of what I'm wishing for would be: 1. A code editor that will allow editing a complete class in one go (with code folding etc.) 2. The concept of projects and subprojects. All project classes are readily accessible without drilling and searching. 3. A code aware gui designer. 4. The ability to switch between gui design and code within a tabbed editor. 5. The ability to have all project classes open in editor tabs/panes at once. 6. A tree based system browser with separate tabs for system and project classes. ... > > If you are just looking for a UI designer, have you seen this? https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki… Yes. I have seen this. It would definitely be nice to integrate it with the ideas above. Thanks, Gerry

Jan. 12, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Dennis Schetinin

2012/1/12 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> > 2012/1/12 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > >> >> but UI building is just one part of the story. If after you just get a >> long initialize methods then nothing gets really reused. >> >> > Yes, > It is reason why I hate VisualStudio and Delphi approaches. It is > imposible to create reusable components of user interface applications. > +1 Please, don't take Delphi is a prototype, it's a counter-Smalltalk approach. Better, take a look at Denis's Presenty, I think there's a plenty of nice and useful ideas. â¦ and it works already! -- Dennis Schetinin

Jan. 12, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > I am all for people trying/prototyping new stuff, new ideas; that's one of the strong points of Smalltalk. > > However, I think/feel that for most Smalltalk developers, the combination of Language+Libraries+IDE in its current state is way better than anything else out there, why else would we keep using it, why else would we choose it above other environments ? > > In that perspective, I am a bit wary about people who want to change it all to make it so much better, especially if they are not experienced Smalltalkers. People should show and we will decide :) > BTW, what is the current state of Nautilus ? Benjamin is waiting for me to work on RPackage :( Else it is working well. Now he started to implement all the widgets necessary to support refactoring and since he started to get bored to redo all the time the same we started to explore reuse. Skip the beginning of this document and have a look at how we can reuse UI elements. This is on my todo since mid december to read it calmly. > > When working with Camillo during the last sprint, he had Nautilus in his image and it seemed to work well. > > Sven

Jan. 12, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Frank Shearar

On 12 January 2012 11:30, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)beta9.be> wrote: > > On 12 Jan 2012, at 10:23, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Hello Gerry >> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I've been thinking about the idea of an alternate IDE quite a bit. What I'm envisioning would be something akin to the Delphi IDE. Delphi is probably the most productive gui based environment I've ever worked in. It would be very interesting to combine Smalltalk with such an environment. My feeling about the current IDE is that it is somewhat dated. >> >> + 1000000 >> >>> It was designed at a time when monitors were the size of port holes. I think an updated environment would go a long way to making the language more interesting and accessible. The difficult part about Smalltalk certainly isn't the language, it's the strange IDE layout. If that barrier were to be removed, then a person could really hit the ground running. The only real difference I would see between the old and the new would be the code editor. The rest would just be a little rearranging of what is already there. I'm slowly talking my self >>> into actually starting down the road a bit. I think I'll try to find a few days that I can spend doing some investigating. >>> >>> Any thoughts? >> >> Brainstorm using glamour to prototype something. >> We definitively need innovation and rethink how we work. >> >> I can tell you that what we have is not what I dream of. > > I am all for people trying/prototyping new stuff, new ideas; that's one of the strong points of Smalltalk. > > However, I think/feel that for most Smalltalk developers, the combination of Language+Libraries+IDE in its current state is way better than anything else out there, why else would we keep using it, why else would we choose it above other environments ? > > In that perspective, I am a bit wary about people who want to change it all to make it so much better, especially if they are not experienced Smalltalkers. You have a point in that people new to Smalltalk might be used to something and not realise that they're used to pain and suffering that they needn't suffer. The reverse is also true: we too as a community have blind spots, and put up with pain and suffering because we've just gotten used to it. frank

Jan. 12, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 12 Jan 2012, at 10:23, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Hello Gerry > >> Hello All, >> >> I've been thinking about the idea of an alternate IDE quite a bit. What I'm envisioning would be something akin to the Delphi IDE. Delphi is probably the most productive gui based environment I've ever worked in. It would be very interesting to combine Smalltalk with such an environment. My feeling about the current IDE is that it is somewhat dated. > > + 1000000 > >> It was designed at a time when monitors were the size of port holes. I think an updated environment would go a long way to making the language more interesting and accessible. The difficult part about Smalltalk certainly isn't the language, it's the strange IDE layout. If that barrier were to be removed, then a person could really hit the ground running. The only real difference I would see between the old and the new would be the code editor. The rest would just be a little rearranging of what is already there. I'm slowly talking my self >> into actually starting down the road a bit. I think I'll try to find a few days that I can spend doing some investigating. >> >> Any thoughts? > > Brainstorm using glamour to prototype something. > We definitively need innovation and rethink how we work. > > I can tell you that what we have is not what I dream of. I am all for people trying/prototyping new stuff, new ideas; that's one of the strong points of Smalltalk. However, I think/feel that for most Smalltalk developers, the combination of Language+Libraries+IDE in its current state is way better than anything else out there, why else would we keep using it, why else would we choose it above other environments ? In that perspective, I am a bit wary about people who want to change it all to make it so much better, especially if they are not experienced Smalltalkers. BTW, what is the current state of Nautilus ? When working with Camillo during the last sprint, he had Nautilus in his image and it seemed to work well. Sven

Jan. 12, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Problem with Arch Linux and Cog

by Alexander LazareviÄ

2012/1/11 Milan Mimica <milan.mimica(a)gmail.com> > > The proper fix to all of this problems would be to provide distribution specific packages. I know that's a lot more of work and many more people should be involved into this, but how hard can it be? Any piece of software aimed to linux has packages for most popular distributions, so it is doable. Sure! Please note that Ian Piumarta, the maintainer of the original (stack) VM for unix did provide packages for RedHat and Debian systems early on. There are still packages for the latest VM for RedHat/Suse? on [1]. I think Matej Kosik, JosÃ© Luis Redrejo and others took the labor of building a license clean squeak-vm packages, which got accepted by Debian [3] and Ubuntu [4]. I'm not sure about their current status and do not know about other distributions. I don't think that projects like the linux kernel, gnome or whatever all build packages for every linux distribution that's out there. It's true that there is a different demand after the linux kernel than after the squeak-vm. But we still have limited resources and can only hope that squeak/pharo/cuis keeps attracting people, so that they get included in some distributions. The cog VM might be the standard VM inside the pharo/cuis/squeak communities, but it's still experimental and only for x86. So there is the question how to integrate the cog vm/stack vm both into eg. the debian distribution that is also targeting amd64, mips, mipsel, powerpc, s390, s390x, sh4. You can't just provide a new squeak-vm package that contains the latest cog vm. Alex [1] http://www.squeakvm.org/unix/ [2] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2008-March/126624.ht… [3] http://packages.debian.org/de/sid/squeak-vm [4] http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/squeak-vm

Jan. 12, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by laurent laffont

On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>wrote: > 2012/1/12 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > >> >> but UI building is just one part of the story. If after you just get a >> long initialize methods then nothing gets really reused. >> >> > Yes, > It is reason why I hate VisualStudio and Delphi approaches. It is > imposible to create reusable components of user interface applications. > ??? Haven't use Delphi for +4 years but from Delphi 3 -> 7 it was not really hard to create reusable components, extend them and the IDE itself...... Laurent

Jan. 12, 2012