January 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by GÃ¶ran Krampe

On 01/16/2012 09:08 PM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: > Hopefully, one of the converts will finally implement vi bindings in the > image development tools before I get around to doing the work ;-) Just a silly note, but I presume you have already investigated: http://map.squeak.org/packagebyname/SVI regards, GÃ¶ran

Jan. 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Speeding up Finder string search

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Stefan, another approach would be to store the source code in the compiled method trailer. That way you don't need the IdentityDictionary nor searching anything. Just store the source in there. Since a couple of releases, CompiledMethodTrailer is reified and you can have custom types of trailers. Check methods like #encodeEmbeddedSourceQCompress and #decodeEmbeddedSourceQCompress etc... not sure if everything is working, but I am sure that the CompiledMethodTrailer "architecture" is working and it should be really easy to be able to store sources there. Cheers PS: I will interested if you do it :) On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Stefan Marr <smalltalk(a)stefan-marr.de>wrote: > Hi: > > On 16 Jan 2012, at 14:50, Stefan Marr wrote: > > > Hi: > > > > On 16 Jan 2012, at 14:31, Camillo Bruni wrote: > > > >> I guess having the sources completely in the image is the > straight-forward solution to this :/ > > > > Well, we could also cache just the resulting source string. > > Not sure what that means in terms of memory, but going to the file every > time a method is asked for its code seems to be very naive. > > I put a cache (IdentityDictionary) methodSource into Class. That requires > recompiling all classes which takes a while, and I do not know, whether it > should not be in ClassDescription. > > And guess what: > > The bad news: the image size doubles from 22.2MB to 39.5MB. > > The good news: > > "before using cache" #(43239 23490 22084) #(20581 20238 20207) > The 43239 created all dictionaries. > > "warming up and using cache" > #(20177 1428 1393) #(1389 1374 1400) > > That is a pretty nice speedup, grep is still a faster, but now finder > becomes usable! > > > I use the cache like this: > CompiledMethod>>getSourceFromFile > "Read the source code from file, determining source file index and > file position from the last 3 bytes of this method." > | position classSrc | > > classSrc := self methodClass getSourceFor: self selector. > classSrc ifNotNil: [ > ^ classSrc]. > > (position := self filePosition) = 0 ifTrue: [^ nil]. > classSrc := (RemoteString newFileNumber: self fileIndex position: > position) string. > self methodClass setSourceFor: self selector to: classSrc. > > ^ classSrc > > To me that feels all pretty straight forward and naive, so feel free to > have better ideas. > Perhaps the cache should get evicted when not used, etc... > > > Best regards > Stefan > > > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: +32 2 629 3525 > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Jan. 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeaksource mirror

by Max Leske

Seems weird. I found all of my packagesâ¦ Maybe the mirroring process was interrupted because SS went down (â¦) Cheers, Max On 16.01.2012, at 23:09, Carla F. Griggio wrote: > Hey guys! > Just a question about the mirror chileno: is it possible that it copies just the last commited versions of each project? Because I don't see all the packages of one of my projects, just the packages that have been updated recently, with a couple of versions each. > > Cheers! > Carla > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > THANK YOU CHILE! You just saved my night :) > > Max > > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hmm, What do you think about having this loaded in the core image, and a setting for it? :D > > I can't remember all the time how to download it :( > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Francois Stephany <tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> > Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Squeaksource is... up, but just barely > To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > > Same here. Timeouts when loading stuff :/ > > In the mean time I use the Chilean mirror. Pretty simple: > > Gofer new > url: 'http://dsal.cl/squeaksource/MonticelloRedirect'; > package: 'MontiRedirect'; > load. > > MRManager redirectFrom: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/' to: 'http://dsal.cl/squeaksource/'. > > > > > On 10/01/12 15:54, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: > It's very... very... slow... (enough that Metacello loads are timing out) > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Squeaksource-is-up-but-just-barely-tp4283895p4283895.… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > -- > http://tulipemoutarde.be > BE: +32 (0)65 709 131 > CA: +1 778 558 3225 > > > >

Jan. 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Jimmie Houchin

On 1/16/2012 4:43 PM, Frank Shearar wrote: > On 16 January 2012 20:08, Sean P. DeNigris<sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: >> After pounding at the system and countless books/articles/keynotes, I get >> that Smalltalk is a vision, not a syntax. Fortunately, I was hooked from the >> beginning by Alan Kay's TED Talk, so I enthusiastically pushed through the >> pain of adapting to the image, losing my vi bindings, etc. If it was only >> about syntax, without the live, open, dynamic, turtles-all-the-way-down >> system, I would probably use Ruby, which has more of the libraries I need >> and want (although I would definitely miss passing blocks as any argument, >> and keywords are nice). >> >> *However*, like any "blue plane" idea, there are people that don't get it >> (and actually /can't/ get it) and want to relate to Smalltalk as "a language >> with cool syntax", giving up the productivity of a live environment. This is >> the nature of paradigm shift. >> >> Now, while I feel bad that those people are totally missing out on the >> magic, if they are willing to join our community and contribute to the >> libraries, fix bugs, user test, etc., let's welcome them with crappy (i.e. >> standard) tools and reap the benefits of more pairs of hands and eyes. > > I've been biting my tongue for a while now in this thread. Please > don't take this the wrong way, we're all interested in the same > wonderful language and environment, and so on. > > But. > > I've seen just about every time someone joins a Smalltalk community > and dares to suggest that they've had enjoyable experiences with FOO, > the Smalltalk community forms a laager (I think Americans would call > this "circle the wagons!"), with statements like "you lack > imagination" or "when you get it" or whatever. Well lets be specific. When I spoke of lacking imagination it was specifically referencing two different areas. 1) The advantage of a live environment where your editor and your code exist together. No I did not explain the advantages. Maybe I should have. But I patently despise dead code editors and their lack of understanding of my code. Yuck! Anyone who loves them may use them. 2) He couldn't think of an area where Pharo's GUI would be suitable for an application. Yes, that is a total lack of imagination. I listed multiple areas where the application uses UI elements which differ from the standard UI of the platform. I have a harder time something that meets the ethereal standards desired by such. I don't know of a web browser that uses the OSes menu bar or UI elements, mail program, etc. There is really very little consistency in applications beyond the use of common elements which are often provided by the apps libraries and not the OS. Menu bars, icons, context sensitive menus, etc. Unless you absolutely require the widgets provided by the OS, which is a standard OS vendors don't adhere to, then you can do most of the same thing in Pharo. I won't argue that it may not be as easy as we would like. But that is a far cry from we need a native UI via QT (or insert favorite widget library). In another message he spoke that he wanted the language and libraries, but almost everything else could go. If that's what you want, get Ruby and run. As I said, this is open source. If he or anyone else wants to pursue the vision he laid out, please go for it. And where his vision and ours overlap, we could cooperate. But if he or whomever want others to join them in such a vision, they would have to provide a compelling argument. I just don't this audience here is the right one to sell it to. And this problem is not unique to Smalltalk and its hallowed halls or it adherents and their narrow-mindedness. No, you can find it in almost any group who has somebody coming in from the outside and telling them that they need feature X that their favorite language/tool provide. Go to the Python group and try to persuade them they need an image. It will get shot down. You can Google it if you wish. Tell them they need all the features of Perl. Or that white space significant syntax is all wrong. Tell some other language they don't need the semicolons because... Go to any other group and tell them their distinctives are wrong and they should adopt your ideas and you'll get a similar outcome. And if you wandered into comp.lang.lisp and got a reply from Erik Naggum (RIP), take cover. If you are going to come into a Smalltalk group with ideas you think we need to adopt, then be prepared to engage in vigorous challenges. Provide compelling arguments in a give and take. Don't expect us to automatically lay down and say your right. We've been doing it wrong all along. If the ideas do not get accepted either because of merit or the supposed narrow-mindedness of the community. Then it is either due to the merit of the idea not actually working. Or there is a difference of vision. That doesn't make the vision of the community the wrong one. It would be incumbent on the other individual to develop his vision and create a community around it. And do the work. Differences in vision are ok. But the individuals making the challenges need to accept that their vision may not be accepted by community they are challenging. > There are many sources of value that are not present in the Smalltalk > community, that were not invented in the Smalltalk community. Someone > saying that they like FOO might actually have experience in both > Smalltalk and elsewhere. They might actually know a thing or two about > software, about Smalltalk, and STILL not be satisfied with what > Smalltalk has to offer. We should be HAPPY about this! We should > carefully examine new things, and learn new languages, so that we can > _pillage these ideas_. Yes, there are many things that the outside world does well. We should learn from them. Use them where appropriate. But that does not mean give up who or what we are. This poster expressed his knowledge and understanding of Smalltalk explicitly. We didn't impute anything. Do you really think that any new ideas were offered. I don't. > Knee-jerk rejection of ideas that didn't stem from the hallowed halls > of the Golden Age of Smalltalk means the rest of the world passes you > by, out-innovates you, renders you obsolete. I think the knee-jerk reaction is yours. You act as if anybody who states anything contrary can't be challenged. And as I see in your post, you offer no comments as to where we are misunderstanding the values proposed or where my or anyone else's comments are wrong. You provide no substance. That hallowed hall of the Golden Age of Smalltalk contains much value and much wisdom. Most of us here aren't so willing to jettison quite as easy as those who don't even value it. > (Quibble: Ruby _is_ a live, dynamic, turtles-all-the-way-down system. > It's just a pity it has a rubbish syntax. But otherwise, Avi Bryant's > right: it's a Smalltalk. It's just that Rubyists don't live in their > image, more like construct a tent and tear it down. (It makes me angry > that I can sometimes feel more productive writing Ruby in Emacs than > in Squeak/Pharo! Why can I not have BOTH a world-class text editor AND > live in an image (when I choose to)?)) I am all for improving our editing experience. But I want it in my image and not in Emacs/vi. I would rather see our world improved than to see it require an external editor which sees code as text, not objects, where different external editors have differing features. Unity in tools and vision have tremendous value. I really hate that when I am using other languages that I have to choose which features I value most, because Netbeans has X, PyDev has Y, ... and then I want to do some Clojure and the editor I use in Python isn't as well supported by Clojure. Or Ruby or ... Then you also get the lack of unity in almost anything else. Git vs. Mercurial. Github vs. Bitbucket. ... And yes, I am thoroughly pro Pharo. Do I believe there are deficiencies. Yes. I just don't believe the GUI being non-standard, the image, and the editor being in the image are not among them. And I don't believe that challenges to those things should go unchallenged and accepted just because somebody And yes, I am just as opinionated about my perceptions of the deficiencies of Python, Clojure, Ruby, Eclipse, Netbeans, ... Or my frustrations when using them. I just don't go into those communities expecting them to shape their favorite tool to my vision. I rather try to use their tools and attempt to learn their values and ways, assuming they have reason and purpose for their language and tools. I recently spent a while learning Clojure (beginning of the journey). And what I learned I bring back into the development of my application in Pharo. The biggest problem is people visiting a community and believing they have the right to speak into that community. If you want that right, spend some time here. Develop community relations. Then in time you earn that right to be heard. I have limited rights to be heard here because I have been a part of the Squeak/Pharo community for a long time. I have less rights than others because I haven't contributed anything of consequence. Others who have been here far less time but have contributed a lot more, have greater rights. Just my opinions. But I think that they are reasonably founded. I spend a lot more time with people than programming. Jimmie

Jan. 17, 2012

[Pharo-project] Fwd: Squeaksource mirror

by Alexandre Bergel

Begin forwarded message: > From: Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Squeaksource mirror > Date: 16 January 2012 21:26:26 GMT-03:00 > To: Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> > > > Thanks for forwarding! I'm not on the mailing list. It sure is nice to hear the mirror helps sometimes :-) > > Since I'm not on the mailing list, I would appreciate if you could reply/forward to Guillermo and also the pharo-project mailing list itself to say that the usage instructions are available at http://dsal.cl/squeaksource/ Just use a web browser and you will get a page explaining everything. Thanks :-) > > On 16 Jan 2012, at 16:19, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Squeaksource mirror >>> Date: 16 January 2012 16:17:55 GMT-03:00 >>> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> Reply-To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> >>> THANK YOU CHILE! You just saved my night :) >>> >>> Max >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hmm, What do you think about having this loaded in the core image, and a setting for it? :D >>> >>> I can't remember all the time how to download it :( >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Francois Stephany <tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> >>> Date: Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:27 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Squeaksource is... up, but just barely >>> To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> >>> >>> Same here. Timeouts when loading stuff :/ >>> >>> In the mean time I use the Chilean mirror. Pretty simple: >>> >>> Gofer new >>> url: 'http://dsal.cl/squeaksource/MonticelloRedirect'; >>> package: 'MontiRedirect'; >>> load. >>> >>> MRManager redirectFrom: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/' to: 'http://dsal.cl/squeaksource/'. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/01/12 15:54, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: >>> It's very... very... slow... (enough that Metacello loads are timing out) >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Squeaksource-is-up-but-just-barely-tp4283895p4283895.… >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> http://tulipemoutarde.be >>> BE: +32 (0)65 709 131 >>> CA: +1 778 558 3225 >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> > > > ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- > > Johan Fabry > jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry > PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Jan. 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by blake

On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Frank, I agree with what you said EXCEPT that I don't see the NIH mentality in Smalltalk. What I do see, and have seen a lot of over the years, is people coming in and banging on Smalltalk's differences without taking the time to learn the whys and wherefores. I don't think it's knee-jerk defense so much as a creeping sense that the person complaining maybe isn't in the best position to do so. (And I say this as someone who's been on several sides of the argument.)

Jan. 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Saga of trying to integrate IDE with OpenGL continuesRe: [squeak-dev] Re:NativeBoost and NBOpenGL on Mac?

by Lawson English

The latest video in the saga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsJmBwi9lDY BTW, the video I mentioned a day or so ago now has 90 views, in only 3 days. People who want to promote squeak/pharo/seaside/etc to the world at large should take note. L. On 1/14/12 12:20 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > [...] >>> well, one of the ideas is to use fallback display in case of openGL >>> error(s). >>> And render not to GL context but to bitmap. Then you can actually use >>> debugger to debug GL calls step by step >>> without interfering with GL stack/state. >>> Another approach would be to create a separate GL context and use it >>> for debugger. But then you need to keep an eye >>> for switching active contexts at right moment. >>> >>>> L. >>>> >> > >

Jan. 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Steve Taylor

On 17/01/12 09:43, Frank Shearar wrote: > I've been biting my tongue for a while now in this thread. Please > don't take this the wrong way, we're all interested in the same > wonderful language and environment, and so on. Compulsory disclaimer: I love Smalltalk. I used to write it for a living and those were wonderful times. I still keep half an eye on it at the hobbyist level, and wish I could find a way to use it seriously again. If Smalltalk and a puppy were drowning I wouldn't know which to save first. > But. Yeah. > I've seen just about every time someone joins a Smalltalk community > and dares to suggest that they've had enjoyable experiences with FOO, > the Smalltalk community forms a laager (I think Americans would call > this "circle the wagons!"), with statements like "you lack > imagination" or "when you get it" or whatever. For some strange reason - maybe a character defect - I seem always to have got interested in things which have a bit of a marginal life - Smalltalk, Macromedia Director, Blender... One thing the user communities for these tools all have in common is that they circle the wagons/man the barricades/whatever and defend their chosen tools against any outside comparisons. It's understandable that people defend what they love, but it's no way to grow. > [...] We should be HAPPY about this! We should > carefully examine new things, and learn new languages, so that we can > _pillage these ideas_. +100 > frank Steve

Jan. 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] loading subclasses of non existing superclasses with Monticello

by Guillermo Polito

Ha! Told ya! :P On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi guys. I noticed that when loading a package with classes whose > superclasses are not present in the image, and the Monticello popup > appears, then those subclasses are not loaded at all. > I think I remember they were loaded anyway as a subclass from an obsolete > class. But I have just checked in pharo 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 and the subclasses > are not loaded at all :( > So...I am just crazy or it used to be that way and then it changed? > > thanks > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >

Jan. 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Frank Shearar

On 16 January 2012 20:08, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > After pounding at the system and countless books/articles/keynotes, I get > that Smalltalk is a vision, not a syntax. Fortunately, I was hooked from the > beginning by Alan Kay's TED Talk, so I enthusiastically pushed through the > pain of adapting to the image, losing my vi bindings, etc. If it was only > about syntax, without the live, open, dynamic, turtles-all-the-way-down > system, I would probably use Ruby, which has more of the libraries I need > and want (although I would definitely miss passing blocks as any argument, > and keywords are nice). > > *However*, like any "blue plane" idea, there are people that don't get it > (and actually /can't/ get it) and want to relate to Smalltalk as "a language > with cool syntax", giving up the productivity of a live environment. This is > the nature of paradigm shift. > > Now, while I feel bad that those people are totally missing out on the > magic, if they are willing to join our community and contribute to the > libraries, fix bugs, user test, etc., let's welcome them with crappy (i.e. > standard) tools and reap the benefits of more pairs of hands and eyes. I've been biting my tongue for a while now in this thread. Please don't take this the wrong way, we're all interested in the same wonderful language and environment, and so on. But. I've seen just about every time someone joins a Smalltalk community and dares to suggest that they've had enjoyable experiences with FOO, the Smalltalk community forms a laager (I think Americans would call this "circle the wagons!"), with statements like "you lack imagination" or "when you get it" or whatever. There are many sources of value that are not present in the Smalltalk community, that were not invented in the Smalltalk community. Someone saying that they like FOO might actually have experience in both Smalltalk and elsewhere. They might actually know a thing or two about software, about Smalltalk, and STILL not be satisfied with what Smalltalk has to offer. We should be HAPPY about this! We should carefully examine new things, and learn new languages, so that we can _pillage these ideas_. Knee-jerk rejection of ideas that didn't stem from the hallowed halls of the Golden Age of Smalltalk means the rest of the world passes you by, out-innovates you, renders you obsolete. (Quibble: Ruby _is_ a live, dynamic, turtles-all-the-way-down system. It's just a pity it has a rubbish syntax. But otherwise, Avi Bryant's right: it's a Smalltalk. It's just that Rubyists don't live in their image, more like construct a tent and tear it down. (It makes me angry that I can sometimes feel more productive writing Ruby in Emacs than in Squeak/Pharo! Why can I not have BOTH a world-class text editor AND live in an image (when I choose to)?)) frank > I'm sure it won't be long before they are pair programming with or watching > someone at ESUG/Smalltalks/STIC who "gets it". When they start zipping > through senders and implementors, inspecting live objects, and opening > debuggers, I'm sure many will start to understand. Not all popcorn kernels > pop at the same time. > > Hopefully, one of the converts will finally implement vi bindings in the > image development tools before I get around to doing the work ;-) > > Sean > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Misc-newbie-questions-tp4268310p4301259.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Jan. 16, 2012