January 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Smalltalk for small projects only?

by dimitris chloupis

exactly what I meant, glad you see it that way too. ________________________________ From: Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes(a)edu.ge.ch> To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Saturday, 28 January 2012, 23:06 Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Smalltalk for small projects only? May be it is time to forget about the image, I mean the name of the image and change for something else, more in the proximal learning zone of programmer. It is not an image we have, it is a data base of object, and we are programming on this object data base. Hilaire Le 28/01/2012 17:50, dimitris chloupis a Ã©crit : > The issue with image here its easy to totally miss the whole point. An > image is loading lighting fast , a java application is not, its also > great way to organise object orientated code because it allows you to > quickly navigate through it, loading files , is expensive and frankly > quite archaic. The idea behind filesystem was created on the basic that > computer could only load just a few kbs or even less because of limited > memory. -- Dr. Geo -- http://www.drgeo.eu

Jan. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Smalltalk for small projects only?

by dimitris chloupis

Very good point . The tools and the libraries sometimes can play more important role than the language itself. However Java seems to constantly loosing developers because if something is a mess for small project for big projects becomes a big mess , just take a look how many gazillion scripting languages Java has , way more than C/C++. Â I think Java is not that ideal for large project as people think. I will go as far as saying that if it was not such a well marketed product would be an abandoned product by now and not a dominating platform. Companies may like , but coders certainly do not . Companies are attracted by good marketing, but coders are not.Â Coders are attracted , pro coders that is, from what can bring food to their table and pay their bills. And in that respect Java is phenomenal. If I was a big company however Java would be the last thing I would use for big project. As a matter of fact python has gained quite a momentum with huge projects and it is afterall a smalltalk child. Why not smalltalk ? ________________________________ From: Janko MivÅ¡ek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Saturday, 28 January 2012, 22:08 Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Smalltalk for small projects only? S, dimitris chloupis piÅ¡e: > I think this is a post that clearly illustrates the big problem with > smalltalk. The very fact that is compared with Java and Java survives. Yes, that 4-5 peole can do what 50 Java people are needed is both a blessing and a curse :) Blessing because of productivity, curse because we are not able to scale beyond one highly connected development group. We don't have project management practices and tools, while Java guys have because they need them from the start. > You know I dont find it mysterious at all that smalltalk is unpopular as > it is. If I go to the python website I know in 4 second why I should use > python, if I go to a Java site in 10 seconds I know what Java is good > for, if I go to a C/c++ again in seconds it becomes clear what is the > goal, even Assembly websites explain in a few lines what the language is > all about. > With Squeak and Pharo on the other hand it took me literally hours to > figure out what they are good for and by the time I did I was amazed how > underhyped smalltalk is. For me at least is the most underhyped piece of > software I have ever used. This is a valuable point to consider in the future. > The issue with image here its easy to totally miss the whole point. An > image is loading lighting fast , a java application is not, its also > great way to organise object orientated code because it allows you to > quickly navigate through it, loading files , is expensive and frankly > quite archaic. The idea behind filesystem was created on the basic that > computer could only load just a few kbs or even less because of limited > memory. > > In the age we live , filesystems are unnecessary anyway. I am not saying > that hardware storageÂ is , just file systems,Â and I think smalltalk > moves towards that direction. You dont really need files and extensions > to separate data andÂ code,Â OOÂ can do the job just fine in that area. > > I cant comment on the specifics of the image I am new to smalltalk and > still exploring the basics, but let me say that I would love to take the > idea of image abit further maybe following the brilliant architecture of > our brains which stores information not in packages but via association, > I think this kind of workflow is alot closer to what OO tries to be. > > For me the image play a pivot role inside the OO of smalltalk, which > unlike Java does not stop at class definition. Besides an oversize > clumsy library , smalltalk has very little to be envious of Java. > > Regarding huge project I will boldly say that inside a system of > gazillion files a single file can easily lost its identity, OO can plays > a huge role here, it can create that association I was talking about > earlier and it can make sure that the user and coder has immediate > access to information that he want to focus on at that particular moment > but also has a structure that is obvious and simple to navigate. > > About the limitation of an image , i think that is a matter of > implementation , obviously smalltalk has not been used as extensively in > large projects as Java. But then what stops us from implementing an > image that can brake any barrier, even do direct streaming from disk > when the memory is not enough or when we dont want to occupy its entirety ? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Janko MivÅ¡ek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si> > *To:* "Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr" > <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr>; Squeak > <squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org>; 'VWNC' <vwnc(a)cs.uiuc.edu> > *Sent:* Saturday, 28 January 2012, 17:46 > *Subject:* [Pharo-project] Smalltalk for small projects only? > > Hi guys, > > Ralph Johnson in his InfoQ interview made an interesting observation: > > 2:55 minute: "Smalltalk made an fundamental error ... image ... you can > build something with 4-5 people what 50 people can build in Java, but if > you take 200 people in Java ... it is really designed for small systems > ...Â " > > Are we because of the image really destined for relatively small > projects and small systems (of Java 50 people project size)? > > Are we really not able to scale to bigger projects/systems because of that? > > Ok, there are few exceptions of course (JPMorgan, OOCL, ..), but still... > > [1] http://www.infoq.com/interviews/johnson-armstrong-oop > > Best regards > Janko > > > -- > Janko MivÅ¡ek > Aida/Web > Smalltalk Web Application Server > http://www.aidaweb.si >

Jan. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Meaning of the name "Pharo"

by dimitris chloupis

it also helps that "pharo" via google easily points to the website as it is not so commonly used in the internet as a name. Being Greek and big lover of the sea, I am a big fan of the name. My full nick name is "ÎÎ·Î»ÏÎ½ ÎÎ»Î¹Î¿Ï" "Kilon Alios" means "the one who charms/motivates and came from the sea". What bigger motivation and more essential element of the sea than a lighthouse ? Â :DÂ ________________________________ From: StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Friday, 27 January 2012, 17:51 Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Meaning of the name "Pharo" On Jan 27, 2012, at 8:17 AM, Max Leske wrote: > I always enjoy it if a product / project with a "funny" name explains that name somewhere (origin, intention). I think it says a lot about the kind of project it is (how dedicated are the people? If the name is crap, the product will probably be tooâ¦). So I thought, it might be cool to introduce a paragraph (in the "About" section maybe) that explains the origins of the name "Pharo". > > Any thoughts? Yes! I love lighthouse because Â Â Â - it is protecting boats from crashing on the coast Â Â Â - stand against the wind and is wild sea Really positive image. Pharo: solid software with a vision, helping large programs to get to the coast nicely. > > Cheers, > Max

Jan. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Enthousiasm is the main currency among developers

by dimitris chloupis

Very good Point , I have not consider it in that way , you just opened for me another perspective of the problem.Â ________________________________ From: Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Friday, 27 January 2012, 15:33 Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Enthousiasm is the main currency among developers On Jan 27, 2012, at 6:13 AM, dimitris chloupis wrote: > This article is really encapsulates the attitude and what is wrong with programming in general. The attitude of superiority and intelligence that seems to plague coders and being the biggest obstacle to progress. Yes! The "Everyone is dumb but me" phenomenon... What those "intelligent" people don't get is that complexity is inherently exponential. So even if you are 10 times more intelligent than me (very well possible), it is *completely* irrelevant considering that complexity grows non-linearly. If you combine this with the notion of Evolution: that it is impossible to creat "the perfect" out of nothing, yet entropy grows when you incrementally improve things... than this has some very serious consequences. > For me the main problem with is the whole aura ofÂ "elitism" , what better example than Lisp, where beginners are attacked and be excluded. We had the same effect in Squeak at the end. No progress, every improvement was actively fighted against, if needed with the nice argument that one can do it even better, and only "the best" is worth for Squeak. Another thing that "intelligent" people don't get is that critizising is trivial: You can *always* do better, there is no perfection. It's an endless process. This implies that one has to accept and embrace imperfection if one wants to have a future. Else you end up never finishing anything, the death of any incremental progress. Pharo was started with the explicit goal to do as many mistakes as possible, as fast as possible. Â Â Â Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Jan. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Smalltalk for small projects only?

by Michael Haupt

Hi Igor, Am 29.01.2012 um 00:11 schrieb Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > now try to merge it with your "magical" SCM which can resolve such > kind of conflicts. no tool can ever replace communication. Regardless of programming language used. Best, Michael

Jan. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Smalltalk for small projects only?

by Michael Haupt

Janko, Am 28.01.2012 um 23:37 schrieb Janko MivÅ¡ek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si>: >> I'm not so sure the people at those Smalltalk firms building software for banks et al. have no project management. Boasting? ;-) > > As I said in first post, there are few exceptions. But they all have > their dev. process developed internally, have they now? Are you sure? XP, Scrum, Kanban ... all not internal but used in Smalltalk projects. > while there are no common > agreed and used development processes in Smalltalk as there are in > enterprise Java development. What do you mean? Are there implications that if you use Java, you habe to use a certain process? > Even more funny is that many (like > Agile/Extreme programming) actually comes from that Smalltalk project > "exceptions"... but those are "standardised" now, and in wide use - by both Smalltalk and Java developers. Honestly, I think this whole discrimination is a bit artificial. Best, Michael

Jan. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Problems loading underscore assignments

by Sean P. DeNigris

Is there a way for fix underscores via OB in lieu of the programmatic way shown at http://book.pharo-project.org/book/Tidbits/TipsAndTricks/FixingUnderscores ? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Problems-loading-underscore-assignments-tp4337617p433… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 29, 2012

[Pharo-project] Problems loading underscore assignments

by Sean P. DeNigris

I tried both programmatically ("Scanner allowUnderscoreAsAssignment: true") and via the settings browser to allow underscore assignments, but I still got errors loading AtomMorph. e.g. "Syntax Error" randomPositionIn: aRectangle maxVelocity: maxVelocity "Give this atom a random position and velocity." | origin extent | origin _ aRectangle origin. extent _ ***Nothing more expected ->***(aRectangle extent - self bounds extent) rounded. self position: (origin x + extent x atRandom) @ (origin y + extent y atRandom). velocity _ (maxVelocity - (2 * maxVelocity) atRandom) @ (maxVelocity - (2 * maxVelocity) atRandom). -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Problems-loading-underscore-assignments-tp4337617p433… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Smalltalk for small projects only?

by Sean P. DeNigris

Lawson English-2 wrote > > One thing that I have heard is that *no one* has really stepped up and > given feedback to Craig. This is not totally accurate. After sitting with Craig at the last ESUG, I immediately ran into problems trying to simulate the VM and was unable to get answers on the mailing list (http://forum.world.st/Simulating-the-VM-td3774139.html) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-for-small-projects-only-tp4336237p4337616.h… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Trying to build CogVM in MacOSX 10.7 Lion

by Sean P. DeNigris

Igor Stasenko wrote > > so, why people keep doing it wrong? :) > Excepting the minority intending to contribute to the VM, why not encourage taking the sources, image, and build script from Jenkins, which are always in sync. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Trying-to-build-CogVM-in-MacOSX-10-7-Lion-tp4335738p4… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 29, 2012