January 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Morphic queries

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> >> What is that prevents picking lessons learnt, fixes from cuis into Pharo or is it considered a totally different line altogether. time or money. But we are cleaning Pharo internals and in some place more than cuis, even if Juan did a good job and we are looking at his work. Now Juan started to work on CUIS in 2005 on squeak3.7. Stef >> >> I am not calling of absolute merge or throwing morphic 2 .. But picking what is nice out there.. >> >> >> >> On Jan 1, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Krishsmalltalk <krishnamachari.sudhakar(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Wishing all Pharoer's a very warm n happy new year >>> >>> Since last few weeks, I have been experimenting with Pharo as a tablet interface inside a tiny core Linux. The dev though happens on ubuntu. Some more playing around for a group of trainees with pharo on windows 7, platform I do not very much like. >>> >>> How far is it a nice to have framework that provides for a complete UI, IDE like a tablet interface and behaves akin to android that has it's own AppStore, and application launcher in full screen on icon click. >>> >>> Anyone can download the base, and proceed to download the app source, files archive thru an app installer, that verifies , validates and installs as well as creates a launcher icon ( I will provide the screenshots once I have them fine tuned) >>> >>> Rest of ideas and process are similar to android marketplace or iStore, with definite controls on absolute stability and experience of the apps >>> >>> Some observations i will like the veterans to clue me on forward >>> >>> . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... >>> >>> . Is morphic capable of supporting error free runtime GUI >>> I enjoy it's capabilities, but feel it demands more intrinsic Pharo, debugging ability to keep hacking n fixing. Crashes , damaged rectangle painting are just few of the troubles >>> >>> I expect a simple answer, not necessarily a longer explanation of morphic and it's issues with global coordinates, polling event handling which are nuisances. I have read thru as much of links, docs on morphic as i could find, little working on it, but not enough to get an expert hang of it. >>> >>> . Is system browser the best to study for morphic or should I look through any other package..Debug n learn.. >>> >>> . Simple way to get an embedded submorph from it's chain by it's name, #subMorphNamed: does help but only in a limited way.. For those that it digs. >>> >>> . Simpler way to bar extensions from a contributed older package, overriding base class methods, not really the final as in java but at least prevent overwriting methods. A listing post file in of uncompiled methods of this kind. Hacking in FilePackage does help.. But anything better and more complete...and part of a base system. >>> >>> . Mechanism to autosave a defined package every method commit to a packagename.mcz by default to ease crash recovery, use monticello only when I need to version it as a done base. >>> >>> . Event handling of mouseLeave mouseEnter of a PluggableTextMorph, the on:send: did not work, not that I have dug into it... But would like to link it to the models methods directly in the builder method interface like we do for PluggableButtonMorph click.... >>> >>> . Color of a morph is not updated when selecting it thru the halo. Minor hack i have here, to get thru. >>> >>> . Why is extent attribute not updated when we use addMorph:fullFrame: which changes the bounds for the submorphs in some cases at least as i have noticed in debug step thru. >>> >>> . What are clear do not do rules in using morphic framework as it exists today, as people have already experienced and attempted. >>> >>> . Debugger stepping through has most times an out of step highlighting. Any fix on this.. >>> >>> . Settings window seems to have glitches in network settings, font updates from OS... >>> >>> . Autocompletion in windows seems to work on cr, but in Linux you have to type thru. >>> >>> . The easiest way to have a core Pharo runtime image stripped of all dev tools, classes, size is not the limitation here, but stable n bug free base is a must. >>> >>> . Tools n tips to make Pharo base with its loaded apps crash proof, just isolate and close the app that causes the problem rest of the image should continue to run. >>> >>> >>> issue not directly related: >>> . Windows support for OSProcess, i have read the threads and the note from Eliot that it works on windows for cadence, but I cannot get it to work, the ProcessWrapper works but is limited. If I do get it working does it support interactive shell, viz i invoke a command that enters into it's own loop of inputs n output till you send a quit. >>> >>> Lots more i will come up with in the next couple of weeks as I bring out what i have. >>> >>> >>> Sudhakar krishnamachari >>> >>> Extn 91-40403012 >>> Cell 9902104814 >>> >>> >

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Happy new year..

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> Wishing all Pharoer's a very warm n happy new year > > Since last few weeks, I have been experimenting with Pharo as a tablet interface inside a tiny core Linux. The dev though happens on ubuntu. Some more playing around for a group of trainees with pharo on windows 7, platform I do not very much like. Sounds really interesting. Tell us more. > > How far is it a nice to have framework that provides for a complete UI, IDE like a tablet interface and behaves akin to android that has it's own AppStore, and application launcher in full screen on icon click. > > Anyone can download the base, and proceed to download the app source, files archive thru an app installer, that verifies , validates and installs as well as creates a launcher icon ( I will provide the screenshots once I have them fine tuned) > > Rest of ideas and process are similar to android marketplace or iStore, with definite controls on absolute stability and experience of the apps > > Some observations i will like the veterans to clue me on forward > > . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... - Can you give some specific examples? Because like that this this is useless. > . Is morphic capable of supporting error free runtime GUI Yes I do not see why it would not. Now if you are changing and adding method with funny behavior then it makes sense that you get strange red square. > I enjoy it's capabilities, but feel it demands more intrinsic Pharo, debugging ability to keep hacking n fixing. Crashes , damaged rectangle painting are just few of the troubles When I use Pharo and I just code my application without tweaking and cleaning Morph I do not get damaged rectangles. I imagine that Polymoprh/pinesoft, DRGeoIIâ¦. people would not deliver production software if this would be the case. > > I expect a simple answer, not necessarily a longer explanation of morphic and it's issues with global coordinates, polling event handling which are nuisances. I have read thru as much of links, docs on morphic as i could find, little working on it, but not enough to get an expert hang of it. For polling we can now switch to events. After two years the windows VM got the input semaphore fix integrated. We will probably do that once we find a problem we saw while rewriting completely the event generation in HandMorph. > . Is system browser the best to study for morphic or should I look through any other package..Debug n learn.. NOOOOOOOOOO! > . Simple way to get an embedded submorph from it's chain by it's name, #subMorphNamed: does help but only in a limited way.. For those that it digs. Named morph and looking for them is a bad concept. Instance variables is the way to go. > . Simpler way to bar extensions from a contributed older package every package can add its own menu entry. > , overriding base class methods, not really the final as in java but at least prevent overwriting methods. A listing post file in of uncompiled methods of this kind. Hacking in FilePackage does help.. But anything better and more complete...and part of a base system. Sorry I could not get what you mean. > . Mechanism to autosave a defined package every method commit to a packagename.mcz by default to ease crash recovery, use monticello only when I need to version it as a done base. This is done. You have a crash recovery Any change you do is logged. > . Event handling of mouseLeave mouseEnter of a PluggableTextMorph, the on:send: did not work, not that I have dug into it... But would like to link it to the models methods directly in the builder method interface like we do for PluggableButtonMorph clickâ¦. You should provide a real example because we do not have a crystal ball. > . Color of a morph is not updated when selecting it thru the halo. Minor hack i have here, to get thru. > > . Why is extent attribute not updated when we use addMorph:fullFrame: which changes the bounds for the submorphs in some cases at least as i have noticed in debug step thru. > > . What are clear do not do rules in using morphic framework as it exists today, as people have already experienced and attempted. I would love to know that too :) First basic OO programming. > . Debugger stepping through has most times an out of step highlighting. Any fix on this.. This is a pending bug and when Athens is out, Igor will really look at this one. > . Settings window seems to have glitches in network settings, font updates from OS... Be more precise. > . Autocompletion in windows seems to work on cr, but in Linux you have to type thru. Be more precise > . The easiest way to have a core Pharo runtime image stripped of all dev tools, classes, size is not the limitation here, but stable n bug free base is a must. But there is no magic. Just work. And everybody can help. > . Tools n tips to make Pharo base with its loaded apps crash proof, just isolate and close the app that causes the problem rest of the image should continue to run. Yes that we want but this is really not simple. > issue not directly related: > . Windows support for OSProcess, i have read the threads and the note from Eliot that it works on windows for cadence, but I cannot get it to work, the ProcessWrapper works but is limited. If I do get it working does it support interactive shell, viz i invoke a command that enters into it's own loop of inputs n output till you send a quit. > > Lots more i will come up with in the next couple of weeks as I bring out what i have. What I would like is that you take each of these points and send one mail for each with a detailed description. so that we can answer, turn them into bug entries... > > > Sudhakar krishnamachari > > Extn 91-40403012 > Cell 9902104814 > > >

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] glamour and pharo

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jan 1, 2012, at 1:24 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi Stef, > > We are in the new year now, so the arguments can begin :). Sure ;) > First, these seem to be a totally different set of arguments :). That is good. > >> I do not like the magic of the block and arguments > > There really is little magic. In fact, it is about the same as the magic of Morphic calling selectors with arguments. except that it changes the perception of blocks arguments and usage. > >> and the scripting aspects >> Veronica showed me that she does not use long scripts. > > I do not understand. You do not have to use long scripts unless you want them. If you look in the current code of most browsers, you will see that most methods are pretty small. So, this is not really an argument, either. > >> Still I do not see how we extend browsers. We discussed that during the PhD meal at bern with lukas >> and I'm still not convinced. > > I am not sure what you are referring to. How I can create a subclass and customize. >> Now if people want to load glamour perfect. Now I do not have any spare cycles >> to maintain it. My plate is full. > > I do not understand. You do not have to maintain it. It is already maintained. Well, when we integrate something we have to take care. You know oops we changed this wonderful method that nobody use except you :). And suddenly Pharo is bad because it changes :). So it means more code to look atâ¦ >> For now I would like to have a good way to build and reuse Morphic widgets not to >> create another layer on top. > > Sure. Go ahead. This is most welcome. > > > Please understand that this debate started because you said it's sad that Alex would choose to work on top of Glamour for the Metacello browser. I simply would like to understand why you think it's so. To me, there does not seem to be a strong argument. Because if alex can build a model and a little UI for basic image and wrap it with a better UI for glamouroust then we all win. Now if there is no UI for basic then the people like me that are always coding in alpha and working a lot with metacello will get zero benefit. I think that the plan is the following: - make the best IDE you can and that the people use it like hell - make sure that you force pharo to always load it - for the moment we are focusing on cleaning below. Now the challenge is that we need tools too. Stef

Jan. 1, 2012

[Pharo-project] Fwd: Morphic queries

by Krishsmalltalk

> What is that prevents picking lessons learnt, fixes from cuis into Pharo or is it considered a totally different line altogether. > > I am not calling of absolute merge or throwing morphic 2 .. But picking what is nice out there.. > > > > On Jan 1, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Krishsmalltalk <krishnamachari.sudhakar(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Wishing all Pharoer's a very warm n happy new year >> >> Since last few weeks, I have been experimenting with Pharo as a tablet interface inside a tiny core Linux. The dev though happens on ubuntu. Some more playing around for a group of trainees with pharo on windows 7, platform I do not very much like. >> >> How far is it a nice to have framework that provides for a complete UI, IDE like a tablet interface and behaves akin to android that has it's own AppStore, and application launcher in full screen on icon click. >> >> Anyone can download the base, and proceed to download the app source, files archive thru an app installer, that verifies , validates and installs as well as creates a launcher icon ( I will provide the screenshots once I have them fine tuned) >> >> Rest of ideas and process are similar to android marketplace or iStore, with definite controls on absolute stability and experience of the apps >> >> Some observations i will like the veterans to clue me on forward >> >> . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... >> >> . Is morphic capable of supporting error free runtime GUI >> I enjoy it's capabilities, but feel it demands more intrinsic Pharo, debugging ability to keep hacking n fixing. Crashes , damaged rectangle painting are just few of the troubles >> >> I expect a simple answer, not necessarily a longer explanation of morphic and it's issues with global coordinates, polling event handling which are nuisances. I have read thru as much of links, docs on morphic as i could find, little working on it, but not enough to get an expert hang of it. >> >> . Is system browser the best to study for morphic or should I look through any other package..Debug n learn.. >> >> . Simple way to get an embedded submorph from it's chain by it's name, #subMorphNamed: does help but only in a limited way.. For those that it digs. >> >> . Simpler way to bar extensions from a contributed older package, overriding base class methods, not really the final as in java but at least prevent overwriting methods. A listing post file in of uncompiled methods of this kind. Hacking in FilePackage does help.. But anything better and more complete...and part of a base system. >> >> . Mechanism to autosave a defined package every method commit to a packagename.mcz by default to ease crash recovery, use monticello only when I need to version it as a done base. >> >> . Event handling of mouseLeave mouseEnter of a PluggableTextMorph, the on:send: did not work, not that I have dug into it... But would like to link it to the models methods directly in the builder method interface like we do for PluggableButtonMorph click.... >> >> . Color of a morph is not updated when selecting it thru the halo. Minor hack i have here, to get thru. >> >> . Why is extent attribute not updated when we use addMorph:fullFrame: which changes the bounds for the submorphs in some cases at least as i have noticed in debug step thru. >> >> . What are clear do not do rules in using morphic framework as it exists today, as people have already experienced and attempted. >> >> . Debugger stepping through has most times an out of step highlighting. Any fix on this.. >> >> . Settings window seems to have glitches in network settings, font updates from OS... >> >> . Autocompletion in windows seems to work on cr, but in Linux you have to type thru. >> >> . The easiest way to have a core Pharo runtime image stripped of all dev tools, classes, size is not the limitation here, but stable n bug free base is a must. >> >> . Tools n tips to make Pharo base with its loaded apps crash proof, just isolate and close the app that causes the problem rest of the image should continue to run. >> >> >> issue not directly related: >> . Windows support for OSProcess, i have read the threads and the note from Eliot that it works on windows for cadence, but I cannot get it to work, the ProcessWrapper works but is limited. If I do get it working does it support interactive shell, viz i invoke a command that enters into it's own loop of inputs n output till you send a quit. >> >> Lots more i will come up with in the next couple of weeks as I bring out what i have. >> >> >> Sudhakar krishnamachari >> >> Extn 91-40403012 >> Cell 9902104814 >> >>

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] feature request - undo closed tab

by Krishsmalltalk

Would prefer the option of tabbed panes in a single window. The issue that you point out still remains, but mitigates to some extent while on tabbed panes as in eclipse or other ide's We could mark selected tabs and close all but selected in one go to ameliorate what u state though On Dec 27, 2011, at 7:03 PM, btc(a)openInWorld.com wrote: > > Neglecting that in 6 months I might be in a position try implementing this myself, here is a feature request in case anyone likes it enough to implement it in the meantime, or who can advise why it is a bad idea. > > Background: > For me, one of the greatest most useful features of web browsers is the "Undo Close Tab." I browse almost exclusively opening all links as new tabs since I find this the fastest to follow diversions and then return to my previous place up the stack of tabs. I can get 20 or more odd tabs in a browser window. When I'm speedily closing tabs to backtrack my position, I find my recognition of content often lags my tab closing by a split second. Being able to un-close that last tab is a lifesaver. > Now that I am getting into actual programming in Pharo, I have found that from time to time I've ended up with more than a dozen tabs in the "task bar" at the bottom of World. A few times already when I've flicking through these closing them after finish a line of thought, I have accidentally closed some tabs that I wanted to keep - like the Workspace I had been using as a bit of a history log. > > Perhaps my workflow is bad - but I really miss being able to Undo closing that last window. > > Features: > 1. For a window that has a tab on the "task bar" at the bottom of World, when it is closed allow it to be reopened in the same state. > 2. Clicking on the "Task bar" provides a menu item "Undo Close Tab" that either: > 2a. Brings back the last closed tab. > 2b. Provides a "restore list" of previously closed tabs sorted by time closed, which brings back that tab. > > Implementation Idea: > 3. When closing a tab, rather than actually closing it, the window is just minimised but is removed from the tab and placed on the "restore list". > 4a. The "restore list" is a certain length and when a tab is bumped off the end it is properly closed. > 4b. Alternatively tabs may remove themselves from the "restore list" after a certain timeout eg 30 minutes. > > I'd appreciate your thoughts... > cheers, Ben > > > >

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] System Browser - shifting class comments into pane beneath class definition

by Krishsmalltalk

I would also state that the compilation should fail if there is no change to the default class comment when a method is written and saved. Aggessively expect even methods to have at least some comment, unless they are accessors or the likes. Will force the habit for future incremental code On Dec 27, 2011, at 9:21 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > This is good point. > we should give more space to class comments. > > On Dec 27, 2011, at 4:04 PM, Ben Coman wrote: > >> >> I could not find any previous discussion of this so I'll just throw this out there... >> >> I find that I forget to click the "?" button to read the class comments as I browse around the system. They are "kind of" hidden. Perhaps also I stop looking because they are often empty. If others do the same then it is a downward spiral... if it seems no one looks at them then no one values writing them. (Except for the good work of the COTDC) >> >> However System Browser opens by default with 16 lines. >> Most class definitions (eg [1]) use 6 lines, which leaves a lot of unused whitespace. >> I wonder if the class comment was to appear (in a separate pane) beneath the class definition then the class definition would be filled out more often. Bring the class comments to the fore and perhaps they'll be valued more. At least for me, it will ensure that I don't miss where there are good comments I can learn from. Also more attention may focus on the poor comments due to being more exposed. >> just a random thought... >> cheers, Ben >> >> [1] Object subclass: #Behavior >> uses: TPureBehavior >> instanceVariableNames: 'superclass methodDict format' >> classVariableNames: 'ObsoleteSubclasses' >> poolDictionaries: '' >> category: 'Kernel-Classes' >> >> >> > >

Jan. 1, 2012

[Pharo-project] Happy new year..

by Krishsmalltalk

Wishing all Pharoer's a very warm n happy new year Since last few weeks, I have been experimenting with Pharo as a tablet interface inside a tiny core Linux. The dev though happens on ubuntu. Some more playing around for a group of trainees with pharo on windows 7, platform I do not very much like. How far is it a nice to have framework that provides for a complete UI, IDE like a tablet interface and behaves akin to android that has it's own AppStore, and application launcher in full screen on icon click. Anyone can download the base, and proceed to download the app source, files archive thru an app installer, that verifies , validates and installs as well as creates a launcher icon ( I will provide the screenshots once I have them fine tuned) Rest of ideas and process are similar to android marketplace or iStore, with definite controls on absolute stability and experience of the apps Some observations i will like the veterans to clue me on forward . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... . Is morphic capable of supporting error free runtime GUI I enjoy it's capabilities, but feel it demands more intrinsic Pharo, debugging ability to keep hacking n fixing. Crashes , damaged rectangle painting are just few of the troubles I expect a simple answer, not necessarily a longer explanation of morphic and it's issues with global coordinates, polling event handling which are nuisances. I have read thru as much of links, docs on morphic as i could find, little working on it, but not enough to get an expert hang of it. . Is system browser the best to study for morphic or should I look through any other package..Debug n learn.. . Simple way to get an embedded submorph from it's chain by it's name, #subMorphNamed: does help but only in a limited way.. For those that it digs. . Simpler way to bar extensions from a contributed older package, overriding base class methods, not really the final as in java but at least prevent overwriting methods. A listing post file in of uncompiled methods of this kind. Hacking in FilePackage does help.. But anything better and more complete...and part of a base system. . Mechanism to autosave a defined package every method commit to a packagename.mcz by default to ease crash recovery, use monticello only when I need to version it as a done base. . Event handling of mouseLeave mouseEnter of a PluggableTextMorph, the on:send: did not work, not that I have dug into it... But would like to link it to the models methods directly in the builder method interface like we do for PluggableButtonMorph click.... . Color of a morph is not updated when selecting it thru the halo. Minor hack i have here, to get thru. . Why is extent attribute not updated when we use addMorph:fullFrame: which changes the bounds for the submorphs in some cases at least as i have noticed in debug step thru. . What are clear do not do rules in using morphic framework as it exists today, as people have already experienced and attempted. . Debugger stepping through has most times an out of step highlighting. Any fix on this.. . Settings window seems to have glitches in network settings, font updates from OS... . Autocompletion in windows seems to work on cr, but in Linux you have to type thru. . The easiest way to have a core Pharo runtime image stripped of all dev tools, classes, size is not the limitation here, but stable n bug free base is a must. . Tools n tips to make Pharo base with its loaded apps crash proof, just isolate and close the app that causes the problem rest of the image should continue to run. issue not directly related: . Windows support for OSProcess, i have read the threads and the note from Eliot that it works on windows for cadence, but I cannot get it to work, the ProcessWrapper works but is limited. If I do get it working does it support interactive shell, viz i invoke a command that enters into it's own loop of inputs n output till you send a quit. Lots more i will come up with in the next couple of weeks as I bring out what i have. Sudhakar krishnamachari Extn 91-40403012 Cell 9902104814

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Possible bug in FFI

by Krishsmalltalk

Temporarily I find it useful to forward Object>>#clone to invoke shallowCopy, as there are many other methods in some package including KlattSynthesizer.. That call this method Sudhakar krishnamachari Extn 91-40403012 Cell 9902104814 On Dec 29, 2011, at 7:21 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Can you try simply removing the method? > > Stef > On Dec 29, 2011, at 12:29 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 12:23 AM, ncalexan <ncalexander(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> Long-time reader, first-time poster. >> >> Hi and welcome :) >> >> Is FFI fully supported on Pharo? I >> installed into the 1.3 OneClick using >> >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; >> package: 'ConfigurationOfFFI'; >> load. >> >> ConfigurationOfFFI load. >> >> All seems fine but >> >> ExternalAddress gcallocate: 128 >> >> fails in ExternalAddress>>shallowCopy, complaining that clone is not >> understood. >> >> Bug? Not supported? Misused? >> >> >> Indeed, it looks like a bug at least for pharo (where #clone was removed) >> >> ExternalAddress >> shallowCopy >> "Re-implemented to avoid superclass call to #new:" >> ^self clone >> >> But now sure what to replace it with. The method #clone used to be just the call to primitive 148, which is the same as shallowCopy. So I don't understand why we need to reimplement shallowCopy in ExternalAddress. >> "Re-implemented to avoid superclass call to #new:" since shallowCopy is a primitive, it would only send a message (like #new:) only if the primitive fails. So..I am lost. >> >> >> >> >> Best, >> Nick Alexander >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Possible-bug-in-FFI-tp4241299p4241299.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Mariano >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >> > >

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Happy new year!

by Alexandre Bergel

Still at two hours from it, but after the greetings of my family in France I have to wish all the best to you all! Alexandre Le 31 dÃ©c. 2011 Ã 21:11, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> a Ã©crit : > Happy new year! :) > > Doru > > > On 31 Dec 2011, at 22:59, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Hi guys >> >> I wish you good health (because at the end this is the most important and when we are going well we do not >> estimate how cool it is). >> Then lot of fun and business. >> >> Stef > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair, > you will end up with a messy haircut." > >

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] glamour and pharo

by Tudor Girba

Hi Stef, We are in the new year now, so the arguments can begin :). On 31 Dec 2011, at 23:33, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > I looked at it and First, these seem to be a totally different set of arguments :). That is good. > I do not like the magic of the block and arguments There really is little magic. In fact, it is about the same as the magic of Morphic calling selectors with arguments. > and the scripting aspects > Veronica showed me that she does not use long scripts. I do not understand. You do not have to use long scripts unless you want them. If you look in the current code of most browsers, you will see that most methods are pretty small. So, this is not really an argument, either. > Still I do not see how we extend browsers. We discussed that during the PhD meal at bern with lukas > and I'm still not convinced. I am not sure what you are referring to. > Now if people want to load glamour perfect. Now I do not have any spare cycles > to maintain it. My plate is full. I do not understand. You do not have to maintain it. It is already maintained. > For now I would like to have a good way to build and reuse Morphic widgets not to > create another layer on top. Sure. Go ahead. This is most welcome. Please understand that this debate started because you said it's sad that Alex would choose to work on top of Glamour for the Metacello browser. I simply would like to understand why you think it's so. To me, there does not seem to be a strong argument. Doru > Stef > > On Dec 31, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Let's take this on the Pharo mailing list. >> >> I do think that Glamour should be considered for being part of the Pharo infrastructure. At least the Core and the basic Morphic rendering (i.e., without Mondrian, EyeSee and Magritte). >> >> And I also think your analysis is not accurate. Here is why (I apologize for the long list): >> >> 1. Glamour is quite well documented. There is a chapter describing it. There are a tone of examples documenting all sorts of features. There comments are not as good as they could be, but there are comments, and I can help documenting more. >> >> 2. It is quite well tested. This part can be improved, but the core has some 80% coverage. >> >> 3. I am not the only one that knows how to mingle with it. To give some examples, Jorge, Damien (Cassou) and Esteban helped fixing some intricate bugs directly in the core. Lukas built the first Seaside rendering quite fast. I would also mention that as a student, Andrei Chis took about 1 month of work to produce a working version of a Seaside rendering almost from scratch. So, maybe it's not that difficult. >> >> 4. The core is quite stable since more than 1 year. There were changes, but they were mostly related to bug fixes. >> >> 5. The main point of using this infrastructure is not to replace Morphic, but it is to limit the maintenance of the browsers, and to empower more people to build more browsers. For example, the Glamorous Inspector has less than 200 lines of code in total. This is really tiny for the amount of things it offers. And it is highly extensible, too. >> >> 6. It's actually not that large: the core has 36 classes, and if you consider all the other presentations, helper classes and specialized browsers (but without the rendering code), you get some 93 classes. >> >> 7. But, perhaps the most important part is that there have been literally hundreds of browsers built on top of it. Not all of them are useful now, but they were when they were built. And it seems that people can build one quite fast without much knowledge of the internals either. That is the whole point of this infrastructure. Esteban even used it for building commercial applications. I built a couple, too. The whole of Moose is now using this infrastructure, too. >> >> >> I am not saying that Glamour is perfect. There are quite a couple of things I would like to enhance (for example, the request ideas from Omnibrowser, or the wizard workflows from Merlin), but it has proved to be quite solid until now. >> >> So, before dismissing Glamour, perhaps it would be useful to actually look into it. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >>> On Dec 31, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Stef, >>>> >>>> You seem to say that it is bad that Glamour provides a good infrastructure that appeals to people. Maybe a better conclusion is that Glamour is something to be considered for the infrastructure of Pharo. >>> >>> Do you think so? >>> I do not think that we can base our infrastructure on something that only one person understand and can modify. >>> You will tell that this is the same for Morphic but this is not true. >>> >>> Stef >>> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Beauty is where we see it." >> >> >> >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing should have the right to be different."

Jan. 1, 2012