January 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] seaside and pharo (was: glamour and pharo)

by Alexandre Bergel

Ah ah! Excellent!! Alexandre Le 1 janv. 2012 Ã 11:55, Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : >>> So, before dismissing Seaside, perhaps it would be useful to actually >>> look into it. >> >> rofl, made by day >> Can we turn this into a meme? > > Definitely, http://memegenerator.net/instance/12756821. > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch >

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] seaside and pharo (was: glamour and pharo)

by Philippe Marschall

On 01.01.2012 17:07, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Hi philippe > > I need a dictionary to read your emails :) > What is a meme? An idea virus [1]. You probably know several Internet memes [2] like lolcats or "Yo dawg". [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_meme Cheers Philippe

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Happy new year..

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

You look like you are having fun lukas. You made me laugh and I wish you a good year. This year I decided that I will more zen and not only related to pharo but to life in general. I have the best position I can dream of as researcher, so I will say no to a lot of things and I will have fun and get where I want to go. So this year I want a new compiler in the system, bootstrapping and learning more about vms. So this is simple. Just a question of time. In french we say that "we cannot do an omelet without breaking eggs and this suits me well." I like food, good food and I have a goal. So we will get there. This is what I like about it. No stress. Stef On Jan 1, 2012, at 4:29 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >>> . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... >> >> Me too. But it is not the core which is less stable in 1.3, but the dev >> tools. > > Mariano, this is a logic puzzle for you: > http://memegenerator.net/instance/12757355 > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch >

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] seaside and pharo (was: glamour and pharo)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi philippe I need a dictionary to read your emails :) What is a meme? Stef > rofl, made by day > Can we turn this into a meme?

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Happy new year..

by Lukas Renggli

>> . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... > > Me too. But it is not the core which is less stable in 1.3, but the dev > tools. Mariano, this is a logic puzzle for you: http://memegenerator.net/instance/12757355 Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Happy new year..

by Mariano Martinez Peck

> > . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... > Me too. But it is not the core which is less stable in 1.3, but the dev tools. > > . Mechanism to autosave a defined package every method commit to a > packagename.mcz by default to ease crash recovery, use monticello only when > I need to version it as a done base. > > This is done. Every thing you change is recored in .changes file. You can open such file with a text editor to recover lost code or you can even open the recover tool to read it and load back what you lost. > . Debugger stepping through has most times an out of step highlighting. > Any fix on this.. > > This was a known problem: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=709 Happy new year -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] seaside and pharo (was: glamour and pharo)

by Lukas Renggli

>> So, before dismissing Seaside, perhaps it would be useful to actually >> look into it. > > rofl, made by day > Can we turn this into a meme? Definitely, http://memegenerator.net/instance/12756821. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] seaside and pharo (was: glamour and pharo)

by Philippe Marschall

On 31.12.2011 18:58, Lukas Renggli wrote: > Let's take this on the Pharo mailing list. > > I do think that Seaside should be considered for being part of the > Pharo infrastructure. At least the Core and the basic HTML rendering > (i.e., without JQuery, Magritte and Pier). > > And I also think your analysis is not accurate. Here is why (I > apologize for the long list): > > 1. Seaside is quite well documented. There are two books describing > it. There are a tone of examples documenting all sorts of features. > There comments are not as good as they could be, but there are lots of > comments. > > 2. It is quite well tested. This part can be improved, but the core > has some 80% coverage. > > 3. I am not the only one that knows how to mingle with it. To give > some examples, more than 30 people helped fixing some intricate bugs > directly in the core (http://www.seaside.st/community/contributors) I > would also mention that countless student projects are on > Squeaksource. So, maybe it's not that difficult. > > 4. The core is quite stable since more than 10 years. There were > changes, but they were mostly related to new features and bug fixes. > > 5. The main point of using this infrastructure is not to replace > Morphic, and to empower more people to build more applications. For > example, the Seaside counter has less than 5 lines of code in total > (and one instance variable only). This is really tiny for the amount > of things it offers (you can even step through it with a debugger). > And it is highly extensible (subclassing), too. > > 6. It's actually not that large: the core has 152 classes, and if you > consider all the other packages, helper classes and specialized > frameworks (but without the example code), you get some 1162 classes. > > 7. But, perhaps the most important part is that there have been > literally thousands of applications built on top of it. Not all of > them are useful now, but they were when they were built. And it seems > that people can build one quite fast without much knowledge of the web > either. That is the whole point of this infrastructure. Esteban even > used it for building commercial applications. I built a couple, too. > The whole of Pier (SmallWiki) is now using this infrastructure, too. > > I am not saying that Seaside is perfect. There are quite a couple of > things I would like to enhance (for example, the AJAX ideas from Reef, > or the components from ExtJS), but it has proved to be quite solid > until now. > > So, before dismissing Seaside, perhaps it would be useful to actually > look into it. rofl, made by day Can we turn this into a meme? Cheers Philippe

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Happy new year..

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Excellent! Stef On Jan 1, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote: > > >> What I would like is that you take each of these points and send one mail for each with a detailed description. so that we can answer, turn them into bug entries.. > > > I do intend doing this in a while thru the week ahead. > > > Thx,... For other answers... > > > On Jan 1, 2012, at 1:58 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> >>> Wishing all Pharoer's a very warm n happy new year >>> >>> Since last few weeks, I have been experimenting with Pharo as a tablet interface inside a tiny core Linux. The dev though happens on ubuntu. Some more playing around for a group of trainees with pharo on windows 7, platform I do not very much like. >> Sounds really interesting. >> Tell us more. >> >>> >>> How far is it a nice to have framework that provides for a complete UI, IDE like a tablet interface and behaves akin to android that has it's own AppStore, and application launcher in full screen on icon click. >>> >>> Anyone can download the base, and proceed to download the app source, files archive thru an app installer, that verifies , validates and installs as well as creates a launcher icon ( I will provide the screenshots once I have them fine tuned) >>> >>> Rest of ideas and process are similar to android marketplace or iStore, with definite controls on absolute stability and experience of the apps >>> >>> Some observations i will like the veterans to clue me on forward >>> >>> . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... >> >> - Can you give some specific examples? Because like that this this is useless. >> >>> . Is morphic capable of supporting error free runtime GUI >> >> Yes >> I do not see why it would not. Now if you are changing and adding method with funny behavior then it makes sense that you get >> strange red square. >> >>> I enjoy it's capabilities, but feel it demands more intrinsic Pharo, debugging ability to keep hacking n fixing. Crashes , damaged rectangle painting are just few of the troubles >> >> When I use Pharo and I just code my application without tweaking and cleaning Morph I do not get damaged rectangles. >> I imagine that Polymoprh/pinesoft, DRGeoIIâ¦. people would not deliver production software if this would be the case. >> >>> >>> I expect a simple answer, not necessarily a longer explanation of morphic and it's issues with global coordinates, polling event handling which are nuisances. I have read thru as much of links, docs on morphic as i could find, little working on it, but not enough to get an expert hang of it. >> >> For polling we can now switch to events. After two years the windows VM got the input semaphore fix integrated. >> We will probably do that once we find a problem we saw while rewriting completely the event generation in HandMorph. >> >> >>> . Is system browser the best to study for morphic or should I look through any other package..Debug n learn.. >> NOOOOOOOOOO! >> >>> . Simple way to get an embedded submorph from it's chain by it's name, #subMorphNamed: does help but only in a limited way.. For those that it digs. >> >> Named morph and looking for them is a bad concept. >> Instance variables is the way to go. >> >> >>> . Simpler way to bar extensions from a contributed older package >> every package can add its own menu entry. >> >>> , overriding base class methods, not really the final as in java but at least prevent overwriting methods. A listing post file in of uncompiled methods of this kind. Hacking in FilePackage does help.. But anything better and more complete...and part of a base system. >> >> Sorry I could not get what you mean. >> >> >>> . Mechanism to autosave a defined package every method commit to a packagename.mcz by default to ease crash recovery, use monticello only when I need to version it as a done base. >> This is done. You have a crash recovery >> Any change you do is logged. >> >> >>> . Event handling of mouseLeave mouseEnter of a PluggableTextMorph, the on:send: did not work, not that I have dug into it... But would like to link it to the models methods directly in the builder method interface like we do for PluggableButtonMorph clickâ¦. >> >> You should provide a real example because we do not have a crystal ball. >> >> >>> . Color of a morph is not updated when selecting it thru the halo. Minor hack i have here, to get thru. >>> >>> . Why is extent attribute not updated when we use addMorph:fullFrame: which changes the bounds for the submorphs in some cases at least as i have noticed in debug step thru. >>> >>> . What are clear do not do rules in using morphic framework as it exists today, as people have already experienced and attempted. >> >> I would love to know that too :) >> First basic OO programming. >> >> >>> . Debugger stepping through has most times an out of step highlighting. Any fix on this.. >> >> This is a pending bug and when Athens is out, Igor will really look at this one. >> >> >>> . Settings window seems to have glitches in network settings, font updates from OS... >> Be more precise. >> >> >>> . Autocompletion in windows seems to work on cr, but in Linux you have to type thru. >> Be more precise >> >> >> >>> . The easiest way to have a core Pharo runtime image stripped of all dev tools, classes, size is not the limitation here, but stable n bug free base is a must. >> >> But there is no magic. Just work. And everybody can help. >> >> >>> . Tools n tips to make Pharo base with its loaded apps crash proof, just isolate and close the app that causes the problem rest of the image should continue to run. >> Yes that we want but this is really not simple. >> >> >>> issue not directly related: >>> . Windows support for OSProcess, i have read the threads and the note from Eliot that it works on windows for cadence, but I cannot get it to work, the ProcessWrapper works but is limited. If I do get it working does it support interactive shell, viz i invoke a command that enters into it's own loop of inputs n output till you send a quit. >>> >>> Lots more i will come up with in the next couple of weeks as I bring out what i have. >> >> What I would like is that you take each of these points and send one mail for each with a detailed description. so that we can answer, turn them into bug entries... >> >>> >>> >>> Sudhakar krishnamachari >>> >>> Extn 91-40403012 >>> Cell 9902104814 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >

Jan. 1, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Happy new year..

by Krishsmalltalk

> What I would like is that you take each of these points and send one mail for each with a detailed description. so that we can answer, turn them into bug entries.. I do intend doing this in a while thru the week ahead. Thx,... For other answers... On Jan 1, 2012, at 1:58 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> Wishing all Pharoer's a very warm n happy new year >> >> Since last few weeks, I have been experimenting with Pharo as a tablet interface inside a tiny core Linux. The dev though happens on ubuntu. Some more playing around for a group of trainees with pharo on windows 7, platform I do not very much like. > Sounds really interesting. > Tell us more. > >> >> How far is it a nice to have framework that provides for a complete UI, IDE like a tablet interface and behaves akin to android that has it's own AppStore, and application launcher in full screen on icon click. >> >> Anyone can download the base, and proceed to download the app source, files archive thru an app installer, that verifies , validates and installs as well as creates a launcher icon ( I will provide the screenshots once I have them fine tuned) >> >> Rest of ideas and process are similar to android marketplace or iStore, with definite controls on absolute stability and experience of the apps >> >> Some observations i will like the veterans to clue me on forward >> >> . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... > > - Can you give some specific examples? Because like that this this is useless. > >> . Is morphic capable of supporting error free runtime GUI > > Yes > I do not see why it would not. Now if you are changing and adding method with funny behavior then it makes sense that you get > strange red square. > >> I enjoy it's capabilities, but feel it demands more intrinsic Pharo, debugging ability to keep hacking n fixing. Crashes , damaged rectangle painting are just few of the troubles > > When I use Pharo and I just code my application without tweaking and cleaning Morph I do not get damaged rectangles. > I imagine that Polymoprh/pinesoft, DRGeoIIâ¦. people would not deliver production software if this would be the case. > >> >> I expect a simple answer, not necessarily a longer explanation of morphic and it's issues with global coordinates, polling event handling which are nuisances. I have read thru as much of links, docs on morphic as i could find, little working on it, but not enough to get an expert hang of it. > > For polling we can now switch to events. After two years the windows VM got the input semaphore fix integrated. > We will probably do that once we find a problem we saw while rewriting completely the event generation in HandMorph. > > >> . Is system browser the best to study for morphic or should I look through any other package..Debug n learn.. > NOOOOOOOOOO! > >> . Simple way to get an embedded submorph from it's chain by it's name, #subMorphNamed: does help but only in a limited way.. For those that it digs. > > Named morph and looking for them is a bad concept. > Instance variables is the way to go. > > >> . Simpler way to bar extensions from a contributed older package > every package can add its own menu entry. > >> , overriding base class methods, not really the final as in java but at least prevent overwriting methods. A listing post file in of uncompiled methods of this kind. Hacking in FilePackage does help.. But anything better and more complete...and part of a base system. > > Sorry I could not get what you mean. > > >> . Mechanism to autosave a defined package every method commit to a packagename.mcz by default to ease crash recovery, use monticello only when I need to version it as a done base. > This is done. You have a crash recovery > Any change you do is logged. > > >> . Event handling of mouseLeave mouseEnter of a PluggableTextMorph, the on:send: did not work, not that I have dug into it... But would like to link it to the models methods directly in the builder method interface like we do for PluggableButtonMorph clickâ¦. > > You should provide a real example because we do not have a crystal ball. > > >> . Color of a morph is not updated when selecting it thru the halo. Minor hack i have here, to get thru. >> >> . Why is extent attribute not updated when we use addMorph:fullFrame: which changes the bounds for the submorphs in some cases at least as i have noticed in debug step thru. >> >> . What are clear do not do rules in using morphic framework as it exists today, as people have already experienced and attempted. > > I would love to know that too :) > First basic OO programming. > > >> . Debugger stepping through has most times an out of step highlighting. Any fix on this.. > > This is a pending bug and when Athens is out, Igor will really look at this one. > > >> . Settings window seems to have glitches in network settings, font updates from OS... > Be more precise. > > >> . Autocompletion in windows seems to work on cr, but in Linux you have to type thru. > Be more precise > > > >> . The easiest way to have a core Pharo runtime image stripped of all dev tools, classes, size is not the limitation here, but stable n bug free base is a must. > > But there is no magic. Just work. And everybody can help. > > >> . Tools n tips to make Pharo base with its loaded apps crash proof, just isolate and close the app that causes the problem rest of the image should continue to run. > Yes that we want but this is really not simple. > > >> issue not directly related: >> . Windows support for OSProcess, i have read the threads and the note from Eliot that it works on windows for cadence, but I cannot get it to work, the ProcessWrapper works but is limited. If I do get it working does it support interactive shell, viz i invoke a command that enters into it's own loop of inputs n output till you send a quit. >> >> Lots more i will come up with in the next couple of weeks as I bring out what i have. > > What I would like is that you take each of these points and send one mail for each with a detailed description. so that we can answer, turn them into bug entries... > >> >> >> Sudhakar krishnamachari >> >> Extn 91-40403012 >> Cell 9902104814 >> >> >> > >

Jan. 1, 2012