January 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] pharo vision

by Henrik Johansen

On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:24 14AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > <main.pdf> Nice! Some comments on the parts I'm most familiar with: 3.2 I agree, the nice parts in FS to me is the path manipulation API. Going back to pure ANSI-streams as provided by FSFileStream is not really an option. Since it's a clean break from FileDirectory & friends though, it might be the perfect time to introduce XTreams; -or it might be too much hassle to have to change both parts in existing code at once. A good compromise would be to make it pluggable, using the existing Standard/MultiByteFileStreams by default, but making XStreams pluggable (on a use--by-use basis, so you can write new code with XStreams while maintaining old code where you have only had time to rewrite the path handling) 3.3 "Using ephemerons we can then simplify the Announcement and make sure that clients do not have to worry about weak or not registration." You still have to worry about whether you want weak or strong registration. "Do I have strict requirements for when the announcement should stop being delivered in relation to subscriber lifespan?" is still a valid question. What you don't have to worry about, is what _type_ of subscription (action blocks or message sends), you are allowed to use when registering weakly. Ends with "In addition, " then nothing :) Cheers, Henry

Jan. 30, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] against paranoid programming [WAS: Re: pharo vision]

by Esteban Lorenzano

errrr.... nobody knows must be read as "nobody doubts" :P El 30/01/2012, a las 1:06p.m., Esteban Lorenzano escribiÃ³: > a little digression here: nobody knows that steps towards systems security is needed and always welcome, even more in this internet days... but I always found that by "security", most security systems are being constructed against the programmers, not against the possible violations. IMHO, things like "don't touch this class behavior", as a way to ensure system security is oppressive, and is against the paradigm enforced by smalltalk. > I don't think a programmer should be in a jail to program secure things... when we (pharoers) start this task, please, please, take this into account. > > yep... always someone mentions security, I run to see if my rights are being violated :P > > best, > Esteban > > El 30/01/2012, a las 12:45p.m., Igor Stasenko escribiÃ³: > >> a comment on Mariano's comment: >> "I am not sure if Pharo could be the best language for security....the fact >> of being able to play as god goes in contrary to security also. I >> would let all this >> security stuff for the javascript guys. >> " >> >> in fact, straightly opposite. >> think in terms that you want to develop/model/research a secure system >> on top of Pharo. >> And you're a God, of course, and you should be able to do that, and >> Pharo should help you investigating your problem space. >> Now, if pharo is underpowered, so you as well, and then you leave >> "security stuff for the javascript guys." >> :) >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> > >

Jan. 30, 2012

[Pharo-project] against paranoid programming [WAS: Re: pharo vision]

by Esteban Lorenzano

a little digression here: nobody knows that steps towards systems security is needed and always welcome, even more in this internet days... but I always found that by "security", most security systems are being constructed against the programmers, not against the possible violations. IMHO, things like "don't touch this class behavior", as a way to ensure system security is oppressive, and is against the paradigm enforced by smalltalk. I don't think a programmer should be in a jail to program secure things... when we (pharoers) start this task, please, please, take this into account. yep... always someone mentions security, I run to see if my rights are being violated :P best, Esteban El 30/01/2012, a las 12:45p.m., Igor Stasenko escribiÃ³: > a comment on Mariano's comment: > "I am not sure if Pharo could be the best language for security....the fact > of being able to play as god goes in contrary to security also. I > would let all this > security stuff for the javascript guys. > " > > in fact, straightly opposite. > think in terms that you want to develop/model/research a secure system > on top of Pharo. > And you're a God, of course, and you should be able to do that, and > Pharo should help you investigating your problem space. > Now, if pharo is underpowered, so you as well, and then you leave > "security stuff for the javascript guys." > :) > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Jan. 30, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] pharo vision

by Frank Shearar

On 30 January 2012 15:34, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 30 January 2012 16:17, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: >> Thanks Steph! This is much-needed to focus our community and avoid >> unnecessary confusion and chatter. >> >> A few minor edits to Ch. 1: >> pg. 1 >> Â Â Â Â "curved in stone" should be carved > > No. It is now part of history. It is curved, not carved. > There was a postings in mailing list somewhere, discussing that :)) Sean's right. There is no English idiom like "curved in stone". "Curved in stone" makes no sense. frank >> pg. 4 >> Â Â Â Â * "based on an integreation server" should be integration >> Â Â Â Â * "test them and notify its results" should be "tests them and notifies its >> results" >> Â Â Â Â * "We will also put in place another level of checks based on integration >> servers as well." -> To me this sentence adds nothing. Either explain more >> or remove it. >> Â Â Â Â * "We will not do that for the sake of changing." I think you mean "We will >> not change for the sake of change." >> Â Â Â Â * "expressing in a more com- pact form all kind of information" would be >> more clear as "expressing all kinds of information in a more compact form" >> Â Â Â Â * "optimization at compiler level" -> "optimization at the compiler level" >> Â Â Â Â * "Not only we want that people build" -> "Not only do we want people >> build" >> pg. 5 >> Â Â Â Â * "We want that both users and the system general quality, benefit from the >> best libraries." -> "We want both users and the general quality of the >> system to benefit from the best libraries." >> Â Â Â Â * "we want to have validated packages running check rules and automated >> tests automatically validated." is unclear, but I don't understand it well >> enough to change it >> Â Â Â Â * "*a* good interaction with the rest of the world" should be "good >> interaction with the rest of the world" >> Â Â Â Â * "The list *if* not exhaustive but should allow *one* to structure the >> development effort." -> "The list is not exhaustive but should allow us to >> structure the development effort." >> Â Â Â Â * "New IDES" -> "New IDEs" >> Â Â Â Â * "but also new *way* of handling" -> "but also new ways of handling" >> Â Â Â Â * "of new *kind* of IDEs, desktop metaphor and" -> "of new kinds of IDEs, >> desktop metaphor and:" (added colon at end, subsequent bullets are children) >> pg. 6 >> Â Â Â Â * "proved that it was worth." Sentence fragment, I'm not clear enough to >> fix it >> Â Â Â Â * "and complex *applications*" -> "and complex application" >> Â Â Â Â * "Obviously everybody prefer to use a fast library than a slow one. We >> should develop rule checking that include speed regression testing." -> >> "Obviously everybody prefers using a fast library over a slow one. We should >> develop rule checking that includes speed regression testing." >> Â Â Â Â * "64 bits. For managing large amount of data" -> "64 bits. For managing a >> large amount of data" >> Â Â Â Â * "Even if theoretically with a 32 bits VM we should be able to run images >> of at least 2 GBs, this is not the case of current available VMs. For >> example, the Windows VM does not support images bigger than 512 MB." -> >> "Although a 32 bit VM can theoretically run images of up to 2 GB, the >> currently available VMs are more limited. For example, the Windows VM does >> not support images bigger than 512 MB." >> pg. 7 >> Â Â Â Â * "Large applications" section is repeated >> Â Â Â Â * "OpenSophie proved that Smalltalk and Squeak in particular, the ancestor >> of Pharo, are good platforms for building advanced multimedia applications. >> We believe that Pharo can be used in such situation." -> "OpenSophie proved >> that Smalltalk, and Squeak (Pharo's ancestor) in particular, are good >> platforms for building advanced multimedia applications. We believe that >> Pharo is well-suited for this." >> >> Sean >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/pharo-vision-tp4340345p4341249.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Jan. 30, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] OneClick on website's first page?

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

S, Sven Van Caekenberghe piÅ¡e: > > On 30 Jan 2012, at 16:40, Janko MivÅ¡ek wrote: > >> This is a second level page while current trend is to have most useful >> download for newcomers on a first page. > > ?? > > If I click on the 'Download Pharo' badge top right on the home page my download starts immediately. > > This is perfect. Ah, this is a link to OneClick! BTW: maybe a word 'OneClick' would be good to add in the Download logo. My intention was dragged into downloads of Shortcuts section and I'm also blind to "marketing" images outside the central area, this is probably a reason :) But it is only me? Janko -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Svetovalec za informatiko Eranova d.o.o. Ljubljana, Slovenija www.eranova.si tel: 01 514 22 55 faks: 01 514 22 56 gsm: 031 674 565

Jan. 30, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] OneClick on website's first page?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 30 Jan 2012, at 16:40, Janko MivÅ¡ek wrote: > This is a second level page while current trend is to have most useful > download for newcomers on a first page. ?? If I click on the 'Download Pharo' badge top right on the home page my download starts immediately. This is perfect.

Jan. 30, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] pharo vision

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > a comment on Mariano's comment: > "I am not sure if Pharo could be the best language for security....the fact > of being able to play as god goes in contrary to security also. I > would let all this > security stuff for the javascript guys. > " > > in fact, straightly opposite. > think in terms that you want to develop/model/research a secure system > on top of Pharo. > And you're a God, of course, and you should be able to do that, and > Pharo should help you investigating your problem space. > Now, if pharo is underpowered, so you as well, and then you leave > "security stuff for the javascript guys." > :) > > Good point :) -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Jan. 30, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] pharo vision

by Igor Stasenko

a comment on Mariano's comment: "I am not sure if Pharo could be the best language for security....the fact of being able to play as god goes in contrary to security also. I would let all this security stuff for the javascript guys. " in fact, straightly opposite. think in terms that you want to develop/model/research a secure system on top of Pharo. And you're a God, of course, and you should be able to do that, and Pharo should help you investigating your problem space. Now, if pharo is underpowered, so you as well, and then you leave "security stuff for the javascript guys." :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 30, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] OneClick on website's first page?

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

S, Marcus Denker piÅ¡e: >> For newcommers it would be really good to put a "Stable Pharo OneClick" >> on the first place of Downloads section on first page at >> http://www.pharo-project.org. > But that we have? No? > > http://www.pharo-project.org/pharo-download This is a second level page while current trend is to have most useful download for newcomers on a first page. For lazy ones, yes, agree, but this is a current habit around and like it or not, people are not willing to click much more these days. Just see this example: http://emberjs.com/. Everything for a first impression on the first page, besides direct download a dead simple examples for a crucial "aha" moment, also main ideas and architecture in few paragraphs. Latter down more elaborate stuff, still on the same first page, not to disturb now quite convinced newcomer in his growing interest... Janko -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Jan. 30, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] pharo vision

by Igor Stasenko

On 30 January 2012 16:17, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Thanks Steph! This is much-needed to focus our community and avoid > unnecessary confusion and chatter. > > A few minor edits to Ch. 1: > pg. 1 > Â Â Â Â "curved in stone" should be carved No. It is now part of history. It is curved, not carved. There was a postings in mailing list somewhere, discussing that :)) > pg. 4 > Â Â Â Â * "based on an integreation server" should be integration > Â Â Â Â * "test them and notify its results" should be "tests them and notifies its > results" > Â Â Â Â * "We will also put in place another level of checks based on integration > servers as well." -> To me this sentence adds nothing. Either explain more > or remove it. > Â Â Â Â * "We will not do that for the sake of changing." I think you mean "We will > not change for the sake of change." > Â Â Â Â * "expressing in a more com- pact form all kind of information" would be > more clear as "expressing all kinds of information in a more compact form" > Â Â Â Â * "optimization at compiler level" -> "optimization at the compiler level" > Â Â Â Â * "Not only we want that people build" -> "Not only do we want people > build" > pg. 5 > Â Â Â Â * "We want that both users and the system general quality, benefit from the > best libraries." -> "We want both users and the general quality of the > system to benefit from the best libraries." > Â Â Â Â * "we want to have validated packages running check rules and automated > tests automatically validated." is unclear, but I don't understand it well > enough to change it > Â Â Â Â * "*a* good interaction with the rest of the world" should be "good > interaction with the rest of the world" > Â Â Â Â * "The list *if* not exhaustive but should allow *one* to structure the > development effort." -> "The list is not exhaustive but should allow us to > structure the development effort." > Â Â Â Â * "New IDES" -> "New IDEs" > Â Â Â Â * "but also new *way* of handling" -> "but also new ways of handling" > Â Â Â Â * "of new *kind* of IDEs, desktop metaphor and" -> "of new kinds of IDEs, > desktop metaphor and:" (added colon at end, subsequent bullets are children) > pg. 6 > Â Â Â Â * "proved that it was worth." Sentence fragment, I'm not clear enough to > fix it > Â Â Â Â * "and complex *applications*" -> "and complex application" > Â Â Â Â * "Obviously everybody prefer to use a fast library than a slow one. We > should develop rule checking that include speed regression testing." -> > "Obviously everybody prefers using a fast library over a slow one. We should > develop rule checking that includes speed regression testing." > Â Â Â Â * "64 bits. For managing large amount of data" -> "64 bits. For managing a > large amount of data" > Â Â Â Â * "Even if theoretically with a 32 bits VM we should be able to run images > of at least 2 GBs, this is not the case of current available VMs. For > example, the Windows VM does not support images bigger than 512 MB." -> > "Although a 32 bit VM can theoretically run images of up to 2 GB, the > currently available VMs are more limited. For example, the Windows VM does > not support images bigger than 512 MB." > pg. 7 > Â Â Â Â * "Large applications" section is repeated > Â Â Â Â * "OpenSophie proved that Smalltalk and Squeak in particular, the ancestor > of Pharo, are good platforms for building advanced multimedia applications. > We believe that Pharo can be used in such situation." -> "OpenSophie proved > that Smalltalk, and Squeak (Pharo's ancestor) in particular, are good > platforms for building advanced multimedia applications. We believe that > Pharo is well-suited for this." > > Sean > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/pharo-vision-tp4340345p4341249.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 30, 2012