July 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique

by Philippe Marschall

On 07/20/2011 04:14 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 20 July 2011 14:42, Philippe Marschall > <philippe.marschall(a)netcetera.ch> wrote: >> On 07/20/2011 09:00 AM, Serge Stinckwich wrote: >>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Philippe Marschall >>> <philippe.marschall(a)netcetera.ch> wrote: >>>> On 07/19/2011 09:41 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: >>>>> yes... there is a problem in latest vm's and UUID generation (I don't know if it is present at any vm or just mines, but well...). For the moment, faster solution is by deactivating uuid primitive, at: >>>>> >>>>> UUID>>#primMakeUUID >>>>> <primitive: 'primitiveMakeUUID' module: 'UUIDPlugin'> >>>>> UUIDGenerator default generateBytes: self forVersion: 4. >>>>> >>>>> just comment the primitive call. >>>> >>>> Guys, srsly? Is this some kind of practical joke? You have been shipping >>>> with a known bug that has a trivial fix and eats peoples code? You are >>>> wondering why nobody takes you seriously and you don't have more users? >>>> You teach software engineering? >>> >>> Hum, you know like in most open-source software project, nothing >>> happens by magic, unfortunately. >>> Human ressources are very scarce as Pharo is a part-time project for >>> most of us. Maybe your problem will required some interactions between >>> VM guys and Pharoers. Not something that could be done in 5 minutes. >>> >>> Did you submit an issue in the bug tracker just to keep track of it ? >>> Did you package some patch that could be used more easily by people >>> who do the release ? >>> >>>> This is exactly the kind of shit that makes me want to never again use >>>> Pharo in production. This is the reason why I don't recommend Pharo to >>>> other people. >>> >>> If you use Pharo in production did you give money to support the project ? >>> Pharo is not supported by a company (not yet), so no commitments could >>> be done on the speed of the adoption of patches. >>> People are just doing their best to enhance the system. And if you >>> help them (by packaging patches that solve some problems), everyone >>> will win in the long term. >> >> And that is completely fine. But then you don't have to be surprised >> when people don't take you serious, you don't have more users and you >> don't have any enterprise penetration. >> >> To quote from the project page: >> "We want Pharo to be the obvious choice for professional development in >> an open-source Smalltalk." >> >> Pro tip: if you want to be the obvious choice for professional >> development don't eat peoples code. >> > > Philippe, you are using Cog VMs which are under development. > Of course , we're all expecting that there is no regressions > introduced. But sometimes this happens. > This is normal for development process. > So, you discovered a bug, which needs to be fixed. But blaming pharo > for something, which we're not responsible for is a mistake. > > You should know better who to blame. Since you using "cog r2462", why > you addressing your claims to Pharo instead of VM developers? > Pharo images run on top of different VMs, and depending which one you > using, you mileage could vary. > > Well, maybe it wasn't clear to you. But keep in mind, depending on > what VM you using, you may have or not have bugs. So which WM do I have to use that when UUIDs don't work it's not my fault because I didn't fix the code? Cheers Philippe

July 20, 2011

[Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique

by Torsten Bergmann

Igor wrote: >Feel free to submit an additional test for UUID to prevent this >regression in a future. I already provided such a test in my previous post: http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2011-July/051481.html and now there is a fixed issue ready for integration http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4541 Nothing more to do on Pharo side than integration this test case into one of the next updates. But the VM maintainers should fix the issue for the VM Phillipe used. Bye T. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurÃ¼ck-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone

July 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique

by Igor Stasenko

On 20 July 2011 14:29, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Philippe, > There is no need to be so dramatic :) > it was not a *known* issue. > Better: *I* knew it, because I found same problem last week. I thought it was a problem with my virtual machines, which is still not production released, just collecting issues -like this-, that's why I didn't ran to solve it. When you described the problem, I thought it was same bug... and that's why I started think it was a general UUID plugin bug... > we are collecting this problems, and solving them as soon as we can... > > please, be a little patient, your feedback is very important to us. > Esteban, i think this bug is introduced after merging the plugin codebase by Andreas (cog-->squeak trunk) > cheers, > Esteban > > El 20/07/2011, a las 3:36a.m., Philippe Marschall escribiÃ³: > >> On 07/19/2011 09:41 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: >>> yes... there is a problem in latest vm's and UUID generation (I don't know if it is present at any vm or just mines, but well...). For the moment, faster solution is by deactivating uuid primitive, at: >>> >>> UUID>>#primMakeUUID >>> Â Â Â <primitive: 'primitiveMakeUUID' module: 'UUIDPlugin'> >>> Â Â Â UUIDGenerator default generateBytes: self forVersion: 4. >>> >>> just comment the primitive call. >> >> Guys, srsly? Is this some kind of practical joke? You have been shipping >> with a known bug that has a trivial fix and eats peoples code? You are >> wondering why nobody takes you seriously and you don't have more users? >> You teach software engineering? >> >> This is exactly the kind of shit that makes me want to never again use >> Pharo in production. This is the reason why I don't recommend Pharo to >> other people. >> >> Cheers >> Philippe >> >> > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

July 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique

by Igor Stasenko

On 20 July 2011 14:42, Philippe Marschall <philippe.marschall(a)netcetera.ch> wrote: > On 07/20/2011 09:00 AM, Serge Stinckwich wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Philippe Marschall >> <philippe.marschall(a)netcetera.ch> wrote: >>> On 07/19/2011 09:41 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: >>>> yes... there is a problem in latest vm's and UUID generation (I don't know if it is present at any vm or just mines, but well...). For the moment, faster solution is by deactivating uuid primitive, at: >>>> >>>> UUID>>#primMakeUUID >>>> Â Â Â <primitive: 'primitiveMakeUUID' module: 'UUIDPlugin'> >>>> Â Â Â UUIDGenerator default generateBytes: self forVersion: 4. >>>> >>>> just comment the primitive call. >>> >>> Guys, srsly? Is this some kind of practical joke? You have been shipping >>> with a known bug that has a trivial fix and eats peoples code? You are >>> wondering why nobody takes you seriously and you don't have more users? >>> You teach software engineering? >> >> Hum, you know like in most open-source software project, nothing >> happens by magic, unfortunately. >> Human ressources are very scarce as Pharo is a part-time project for >> most of us. Maybe your problem will required some interactions between >> VM guys and Pharoers. Not something that could be done in 5 minutes. >> >> Did you submit an issue in the bug tracker just to keep track of it ? >> Did you package some patch that could be used more easily by people >> who do the release ? >> >>> This is exactly the kind of shit that makes me want to never again use >>> Pharo in production. This is the reason why I don't recommend Pharo to >>> other people. >> >> If you use Pharo in production did you give money to support the project ? >> Pharo is not supported by a company (not yet), so no commitments could >> be done on the speed of the adoption of patches. >> People are just doing their best to enhance the system. And if you >> help them (by packaging patches that solve some problems), everyone >> will win in the long term. > > And that is completely fine. But then you don't have to be surprised > when people don't take you serious, you don't have more users and you > don't have any enterprise penetration. > > To quote from the project page: > "We want Pharo to be the obvious choice for professional development in > an open-source Smalltalk." > > Pro tip: if you want to be the obvious choice for professional > development don't eat peoples code. > Philippe, you are using Cog VMs which are under development. Of course , we're all expecting that there is no regressions introduced. But sometimes this happens. This is normal for development process. So, you discovered a bug, which needs to be fixed. But blaming pharo for something, which we're not responsible for is a mistake. You should know better who to blame. Since you using "cog r2462", why you addressing your claims to Pharo instead of VM developers? Pharo images run on top of different VMs, and depending which one you using, you mileage could vary. Well, maybe it wasn't clear to you. But keep in mind, depending on what VM you using, you may have or not have bugs. At the end of this week (i hope) i will set up a test runners for VMs we're building, so we can automatically track regressions from change to change, including one you discovered. Feel free to submit an additional test for UUID to prevent this regression in a future. Something like: size := ((1 to: 100) collect: [ :i | UUID new asString ]) asSet size self assert: size = 100 and we will happily integrate it. > Cheers > Philippe -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

July 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique

by Benoit St-Jean

I realize that counting all the time we all took to write all those emails filling up this thread, we surely would have had time to: 1) report the problem in the bug tracker 2) write a temporary fix 3) write unit tests to check for this bug 4) run the test suite 5) move on to something else (and wait for a "proper" fix) :) ----------------- Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. (Albert Einstein) ________________________________ From: Philippe Marschall <philippe.marschall(a)netcetera.ch> To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 10:00:23 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique On 07/20/2011 03:09 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote: > Hi guys, > > If I might add, considering the fact that Pharo is putting **lots** of efforts > into unit testing and automated builds using Hudson/Jenkins, we are getting > closer to "as good as it gets" when you talk about stability of the image and > serious testing and coverage. However, we can't trap every bug all the time, > for every combination of image/VM/OS !!! > > If every time I caught a bug I would have used the argument "this is exactly >the > > kind of shit that makes me want to never again use <whatever> in production", I > > would still work out of paper and pencil. No Oracle, no VisualAge, no > VisualWorks, no Dolphin, no DB/2, no Windows, no Linux, no MS-Office, no > OpenOffice, no MySQL, no Apache, no whateveryoucouldthinkabout... > > number of images * number of VMs * number of OSes = A LOT TO COVER AND TEST. > > Let's all keep that in mind... > > Besides, I still haven't found a single piece of software without a bug! Pharo > > ain't different. > > Gentlemen, back to your class browsers and let's make this thing even better! You realize the irony of asking people to write more code when they report that the SCM just broke on them? Cheers Philippe

July 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique

by Philippe Marschall

On 07/20/2011 03:09 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote: > Hi guys, > > If I might add, considering the fact that Pharo is putting **lots** of efforts > into unit testing and automated builds using Hudson/Jenkins, we are getting > closer to "as good as it gets" when you talk about stability of the image and > serious testing and coverage. However, we can't trap every bug all the time, > for every combination of image/VM/OS !!! > > If every time I caught a bug I would have used the argument "this is exactly the > kind of shit that makes me want to never again use <whatever> in production", I > would still work out of paper and pencil. No Oracle, no VisualAge, no > VisualWorks, no Dolphin, no DB/2, no Windows, no Linux, no MS-Office, no > OpenOffice, no MySQL, no Apache, no whateveryoucouldthinkabout... > > number of images * number of VMs * number of OSes = A LOT TO COVER AND TEST. > > Let's all keep that in mind... > > Besides, I still haven't found a single piece of software without a bug! Pharo > ain't different. > > Gentlemen, back to your class browsers and let's make this thing even better! You realize the irony of asking people to write more code when they report that the SCM just broke on them? Cheers Philippe

July 20, 2011

[Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique

by Torsten Bergmann

Hi Phillipe, software changes and (new) bugs can appear - thats life and happens independent from Pharo or other technology. There is a simple rule: "If it is broken we should fix it" and I would add "and make sure it wont bug us anymore again". At least we should in minimum find such bugs before a release. Therefore attached is a simple test case that is green on my VM and should be red on your VM. Let's integrate it into Pharo, you already know the usual procedure to open an issue and I'm sure the Pharo team and VM maintainers will take care. Simple as that ... Side note about recommending technologies and bug fixing: I once found a bug in Swing, others already reported it and it is still after years(!) not fixed: http://astares.blogspot.com/2007/01/disappointing-swing.html So I have to wait and wait since I cant fix Swing myself... If this error would be in Smalltalk I would easily be able to change it until it is officially fixed. So in Smalltalk I can easily move on and it gives me the good feeling of beeing in control. Still Java is more recomended than Smalltalk. Why? Because in the hopefully rare case a project really fails or is late it could not have been the problem of choosing an exotic technology since others use and recommend Java too (sometimes known as the herd instinct) ;) Bye T. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de

July 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] inheritence

by Hilaire Fernandes

I don't understand your answer. As far I remember inheritance discovering was working right in both direction Hilaire Le 07/07/2011 20:21, Schwab,Wilhelm K a Ã©crit : > FWIW, I *really* miss Dolphin's CHB. Seeing things by package goes just so far. We worry (legitimately) about code duplicated along the hierarchy, but we don't have a good way to freely explore the hierarchy. > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Hilaire Fernandes [hilaire.fernandes(a)edu.ge.ch] > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 1:08 PM > To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: [Pharo-project] inheritence > > With Pharo 1.3, one behavior I am not sure it is a bug or not, > > > In the browser, in a method, when I click on the inheritence button I > only get a list of the ascendant no the descendant. Is the normal behavior? > > Hilaire > > -- > Education 0.2 -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire > > > > -- Education 0.2 -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire

July 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique

by Benoit St-Jean

Hi guys, If I might add, considering the fact that Pharo is putting **lots** of efforts into unit testing and automated builds using Hudson/Jenkins, we are getting closer to "as good as it gets" when you talk about stability of the image and serious testing and coverage. However, we can't trap every bug all the time, for every combination of image/VM/OS !!! If every time I caught a bug I would have used the argument "this is exactly the kind of shit that makes me want to never again use <whatever> in production", I would still work out of paper and pencil. No Oracle, no VisualAge, no VisualWorks, no Dolphin, no DB/2, no Windows, no Linux, no MS-Office, no OpenOffice, no MySQL, no Apache, no whateveryoucouldthinkabout... number of images * number of VMs * number of OSes = A LOT TO COVER AND TEST. Let's all keep that in mind... Besides, I still haven't found a single piece of software without a bug! Pharo ain't different. Gentlemen, back to your class browsers and let's make this thing even better! ----------------- Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. (Albert Einstein)

July 20, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] UUIDs not so unique

by Hilaire Fernandes

Le 19/07/2011 20:45, Philippe Marschall a Ã©crit : > ((1 to: 100) collect: [ :i | > UUID new asString ]) asSet size > For me it produce a 100 size set. I am using Pharo 1.3 and a self compiled VM, the one I ship in DrGeo (VM version 4.0.3-2202). You may want to test with this VM https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/28574/DrGeo.app-11.06.zip Hilaire -- Education 0.2 -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire

July 20, 2011