May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] usability of Pharo and Squeak

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks andreas for your feedback. We are working hard and we are making a lot of progress. Now if people do not help then it will be slower. In Pharo our problem is not that we do not know the problems and we have a vision and a really cool and sexy one. Give us 4 engineers and two years and you will not recognize it at ALL. Now we work every day to make it better. Stef On May 31, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > Hi all, > > I have convinced a friend to take a closer look at Pharo 1.2.1 and Dolphin Smalltalk. He is an experienced Java developer. > After some time he started to complain about Pharo. I was discussing with him and now think that he has some valid points. > > His biggest complaint is: "Why does Pharo always show windows at sizes and positions I don't want?" > I answered him: You could set the standard window size in the class RealEstateAgent and furthermore you can create or change >>initialExtent methods in every class that is involved. > But his answer was: Why should I do that? It's the responsibility of an IDE. I don't want to program elementary things of my IDE. Why is there no mechanism that let a user set the sizes and positions of windows? Netbeans and Eclipse are doing that nicely. Why isn't it possible in Pharo? > After that discussion I now question my own way of using Pharo and Squeak. I have created some changesets that I used to file in when using > a fresh image. But that seems stupid now... > > His second complaint was that he doesn't like the cluttered windows. While programming he had a lot of open windows and told me that he lost overview. > Especially in Pharo he is complaining about minimized windows that are hard to distinguish. He better likes Dolphin with tabbed windows that are common in other IDE's. > > > Regards > Andreas > > > >

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] looking for inputField with memory of the last typed entries

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes It is package in a standalone class? what would be cool is to have a way yo configure it so that when we start to type we see the matching expression. I believe that making the basic widgets more powerful is realllllllly important. Less is more. Stef On May 31, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Alain Plantec wrote: > Something like the input field of the SettingsBrowser ? > Alain > > Le 30/05/2011 21:37, stephane ducasse a Ã©crit : >> Hi >> >> I would like to know if an inputField with last typed entry is available in Pharo (if not I will ask benjamin to see what he can do) >> because we need better widgets. >> >> Stef > >

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] How to know 'real' extent of a PanelMorph

by Cyrille Delaunay

I would like a method that always return something like the first result (from the first example) , whatever the 'extending stratgies' of the submorphs (in my two examples, both would return the 'first' result). 2011/5/30 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > cyrille > > I was rereading your mail and I could not really understand what you are > really looking for. > > Stef > > On May 20, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > I have a panelMorph composed by several row/columns with different kind > of morphs. > > What I would like to know is, what is the extent / size that I should use > to FULLY display this panel (without scrollbars). > > Each time I ask for the extent of a panelMorph, it answers 50@40, > whatever what is inside. If you openInWorld you will have something very > very small. > > Is there a way to retrieve an extent with which the panel morph will be > 'well' displayed (without having scrollbars everywhere)? > > > > In other words, what I really want to know is: > > Given two panelMorph, is there a way to say that one need more place than > the other to be displayed? > > > > >

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] usability of Pharo and Squeak

by laurent laffont

On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:18 AM, Andreas Wacknitz <A.Wacknitz(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Hi all, > > I have convinced a friend to take a closer look at Pharo 1.2.1 and Dolphin > Smalltalk. He is an experienced Java developer. > After some time he started to complain about Pharo. I was discussing with > him and now think that he has some valid points. > > His biggest complaint is: "Why does Pharo always show windows at sizes and > positions I don't want?" > I answered him: You could set the standard window size in the class > RealEstateAgent and furthermore you can create or change >>initialExtent > methods in every class that is involved. > But his answer was: Why should I do that? It's the responsibility of an > IDE. I don't want to program elementary things of my IDE. Why is there no > mechanism that let a user set the sizes and positions of windows? Netbeans > and Eclipse are doing that nicely. Why isn't it possible in Pharo? > After that discussion I now question my own way of using Pharo and Squeak. > I have created some changesets that I used to file in when using > a fresh image. But that seems stupid now... > > His second complaint was that he doesn't like the cluttered windows. While > programming he had a lot of open windows and told me that he lost overview. > This is why I've started TilingWindowManager. Could you friend give some feedback ? Laurent. > Especially in Pharo he is complaining about minimized windows that are hard > to distinguish. He better likes Dolphin with tabbed windows that are common > in other IDE's. > > > Regards > Andreas > > > > >

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] usability of Pharo and Squeak

by Geert Claes

Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > > ... > His biggest complaint is: "Why does Pharo always show windows at sizes and > positions I don't want?" > ... > > His second complaint was that he doesn't like the cluttered windows. While > programming he had a lot of open windows and told me that he lost > overview. > ... > I completely agree that Pharo still has a lot of usability issues BUT in the same breath I also acknowledge that there already have been some big improvements since Pharo's inception! The cluttered windows and odd default sizes and positions, no top menu etc do look a bit strange. Another common usability issue is that buttons are often used even when a button really is not the appropriate control. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/usability-of-Pharo-and-Squeak-tp3562378p3562414.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] usability of Pharo and Squeak

by Marcus Denker

On May 31, 2011, at 8:19 AM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote: > Hi all, > > I have convinced a friend to take a closer look at Pharo 1.2.1 and Dolphin Smalltalk. He is an experienced Java developer. > After some time he started to complain about Pharo. I was discussing with him and now think that he has some valid points. > > His biggest complaint is: "Why does Pharo always show windows at sizes and positions I don't want?" > I answered him: You could set the standard window size in the class RealEstateAgent and furthermore you can create or change >>initialExtent methods in every class that is involved. > But his answer was: Why should I do that? It's the responsibility of an IDE. I don't want to program elementary things of my IDE. Why is there no mechanism that let a user set the sizes and positions of windows? Netbeans and Eclipse are doing that nicely. Why isn't it possible in Pharo? > After that discussion I now question my own way of using Pharo and Squeak. I have created some changesets that I used to file in when using > a fresh image. But that seems stupid now... > The RealEstateAgent assumes a machine in the spirit of one with a screenseize of 800*600 (old imac). It should be re-implemented taking into account we are now 15 years later. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

May 31, 2011

[Pharo-project] usability of Pharo and Squeak

by Andreas Wacknitz

Hi all, I have convinced a friend to take a closer look at Pharo 1.2.1 and Dolphin Smalltalk. He is an experienced Java developer. After some time he started to complain about Pharo. I was discussing with him and now think that he has some valid points. His biggest complaint is: "Why does Pharo always show windows at sizes and positions I don't want?" I answered him: You could set the standard window size in the class RealEstateAgent and furthermore you can create or change >>initialExtent methods in every class that is involved. But his answer was: Why should I do that? It's the responsibility of an IDE. I don't want to program elementary things of my IDE. Why is there no mechanism that let a user set the sizes and positions of windows? Netbeans and Eclipse are doing that nicely. Why isn't it possible in Pharo? After that discussion I now question my own way of using Pharo and Squeak. I have created some changesets that I used to file in when using a fresh image. But that seems stupid now... His second complaint was that he doesn't like the cluttered windows. While programming he had a lot of open windows and told me that he lost overview. Especially in Pharo he is complaining about minimized windows that are hard to distinguish. He better likes Dolphin with tabbed windows that are common in other IDE's. Regards Andreas

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] looking for inputField with memory of the last typed entries

by Alain Plantec

Something like the input field of the SettingsBrowser ? Alain Le 30/05/2011 21:37, stephane ducasse a Ã©crit : > Hi > > I would like to know if an inputField with last typed entry is available in Pharo (if not I will ask benjamin to see what he can do) > because we need better widgets. > > Stef

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] A radical proposal (to cut down dead code)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On May 31, 2011, at 4:27 AM, Eliot Miranda wrote: > > > On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Craig Latta <craig(a)netjam.org> wrote: > > > [It's] impossible to authoritatively classify anything as "dead > > code" unless there's a reference standard of what's core and what's > > not core... > > Yeah, in the meantime I define "dead" as "not run for some amount > of time". > > Surely "dead" means not used in the transitive closure of useful packages. I don't see anyone in this thread proposing to trawl Monticello repositories looking for the latest versions of packages and then analysing what messages these packages send. IMO, only by doing this will you be able to define what's used in the image. One could try and relate the messages used to the publish date of packages to try and get some idea of the up-to-date-ness of messages. One can perhaps attempt to make some determination of the liveness of the package by asking the community (basing this on e.g. last time it was downloaded creates the heisenbug of package trawling needing to download packages. Yes. I hope that we will be able to use a Ring based code database + metacello configuration repository for that. > Am I mad or is the set of packages out there in Monitcello repositories and on SqueakMap what really constitutes the working set that the base image needs to support? > > best, > Eliot > > > -C > > -- > Craig Latta > www.netjam.org/resume > +31 06 2757 7177 > + 1 415 287 3547 > > > > >

May 31, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] looking for inputField with memory of the last typed entries

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Frankly I do not care :) We are not in the situation of discussing about framework that we do not have. Now if you give me a cool framework like MVP (and I know MVP) then I have no problem to optimize it. Now to optimize something you should have something else. Stef On May 31, 2011, at 12:38 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > With my MVP bias clearly re-stated, is this really the job of the widget, or of the containing/composite presenter? Depending on what behavior you want, it might be a widget/view customization, but it never hurts to ask the question. > > Bill > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of stephane ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr] > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 3:37 PM > To: An open mailing list to discuss any topics related to an open-source Smalltalk > Subject: [Pharo-project] looking for inputField with memory of the last typed entries > > Hi > > I would like to know if an inputField with last typed entry is available in Pharo (if not I will ask benjamin to see what he can do) > because we need better widgets. > > Stef >

May 31, 2011