May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Smalltalk/Pharo User Group in Spain

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

Not forget SqueakRos (http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/squeakRos/) that it is more a kind of bar where we talk about Smalltalk but also many other things. We have people of several countries but mostly talk in Spanish. Cheers. 2011/5/24 Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com>: > On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck > <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Rafael Luque >> <rafael.luque.leiva(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Thank you all for your suggestions, >>> >>> This is a probe of another nice feature I like about Smalltalk and Pharo: >>> its great community. Perhaps it is not the most numerous but it is always >>> very accessible and willing to help. >>> >>> I don't know the spanish mailing list about Smalltalk or Pharo. >> >> Â <clubSmalltalk(a)googlegroups.com>, >> >> we are all there :) > > I guess this is mostly a south-american mailing list :-) > How many people from spain here ? > > Regards, > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://doesnotunderstand.org/ > >

May 25, 2011

[Pharo-project] some news about the consortium

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi pharoers yesterday we got a meeting with INRIA people and we discussed the creation of an INRIA consortium. We will follow the INRIA process and propose officially the creation. For that we will have to present a proposal by end of June so we will do it. I would like to see the consortium taking life by end of the year and there are still some work to be done there. Stef

May 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Do we freeze 1.3?

by Marcus Denker

On May 25, 2011, at 7:41 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > Is 1.3 will be a release of one or two images finally ? > Two, as changing it would mean doing that instead of a release. (remember, a "release" is just a snapshot of what is done, it should never require anything do be done other than what is there. Hmm... don't know if that's understandable ;-) So we just freeze what is ther *now*, and then move on to 1.4. And there than we can do things. > Laurent > > > On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hello, > > 1.3 seems to stabilize... > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list?can=2&q=milestone=1.3 > > just 12 issues left. > > We could freeze soon. > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > > -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

May 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Do we freeze 1.3?

by laurent laffont

Is 1.3 will be a release of one or two images finally ? Laurent On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: > Hello, > > 1.3 seems to stabilize... > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list?can=2&q=milestone=1.3 > > just 12 issues left. > > We could freeze soon. > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > >

May 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Feedback on Nautilus

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

which version are you using.... Alex can you report bugs in a way that we can immediately check and take actions. the icons are not definitive. > * Can I add a number of packages (based on regular expression?) to a group in one click? Have a look at the 'promote categories' command in OB. It is a bit boring to have to look for a particular package, especially when they are alphabetically ordered. It should be easy to do it. Now somebody should do it. > * What can be interesting, is to separate system packages from user packages, as it is done in many IDE. Currently, my packages Spy-* are represented the same way than Kernel. Putting system packages below user packages would improve the situation I feel. Maybe an option to not show system packages would be better. Yes that could be good. Now alphabetic order is better than mess > * Nautilus does not seem to work. (Only Nautilus2 does). I open Nautilus and clicking on a package opens an error. Maybe it will be better on one unique browser. This will make your life easier. Just focus on the one you use everyday. > > * The command "Add in Group ... " raises a DNU. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > >

May 25, 2011

[Pharo-project] Feedback on Nautilus

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi! * What the icon means? * Can I add a number of packages (based on regular expression?) to a group in one click? Have a look at the 'promote categories' command in OB. It is a bit boring to have to look for a particular package, especially when they are alphabetically ordered. * What can be interesting, is to separate system packages from user packages, as it is done in many IDE. Currently, my packages Spy-* are represented the same way than Kernel. Putting system packages below user packages would improve the situation I feel. Maybe an option to not show system packages would be better. * Nautilus does not seem to work. (Only Nautilus2 does). I open Nautilus and clicking on a package opens an error. Maybe it will be better on one unique browser. This will make your life easier. Just focus on the one you use everyday. * The command "Add in Group ... " raises a DNU. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

May 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] cog vm for iOS

by Esteban Lorenzano

mmm... I'm seeing dr. geo (never did before, he), and I think a version of it as a single screen, like a game, who can popup cocoa dialogs (for copyright, etc.) could work. More or less a "mix" of first approach with John's approach. It can work for Dr.Geo but that is still a specific case... El 25/05/2011, a las 1:22p.m., Hilaire Fernandes escribiÃ³: > A third option could be to build a polymorph theme for iPAD. > This is an intermediate option I discussed a bit with Bert, to do a > DrGeo port for iPAD. > Frankly speaking if someone is interested to work with me on that > direction we may be able to produce something in our range and useful > for the community at large. > > Hilaire > > > > > Le 25/05/2011 18:01, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >> Well... I'm going to use this post to talk a bit about Pharo in iOS, because it is more complex than "having a vm working" >> But first, a summary of where we stand: >> 1) The Stack VM is working with iPhone/iPad, but needs some minor adjustments (some tuning). >> One problem here is that I didn't integrate it to CMakeVMMaker (and as a consequence, to hudson), so build it is not a trivial task. But I will, as soon as some one jump and say "hey, I'm going to use it, for real!"... or as soon as I can find a free afternoon... it is planned (and I worked a little on this), but it is not a priority right now :) >> 2) The Cog (I mean, the jitter) will never work on iPad/iPhone, because of the apple license (clause 3.3.2) and because of the security sandbox policy. But I think the Stack VM can do a pretty job. No, I'm not going to prepare this just for recreational purposes because I do not have the time, and the community work I do should be spent in things the community can use... and I think that Eliot (who is, in fact, the one who can do this, I'm just a builder) will think similar :) >> >> So... if we have a vm running on iOS, why there is no a legion of fellow pharoers taking over the appstore? >> >> Well... because it is not enough. >> There are several problems, besides the vm working or not (to be fair, the interpreter vm works on iphone since at least two years, and John is the only one who succeed on pushing some nice smalltalk apps into the appstore). >> The main problem is that our morphic world is ok for desktop working, and some times for desktop commercial apps (like those of pinesoft), but it just can't be used to create real apps for the iPhone/iPad market. There are some exceptions, like some eToys work and probable the developing of games like "tic-tac-toe" or so... (I mean: graphic games who can be done with morphs). But as a general rule, you can't do a real app in pharo/squeak who runs in the iPhone/iPad and can be sold in the appstore. >> To overcome this problem, what John does is to create the full view in Cocoa, and "plug" the model to pharo/squeak images, using pharo as a module of a cocoa application. This can be done for several apps (and the fraction calculator is an example), but fails when you want a deeper interaction (because of the cost, not just in "programming time" but also the "translation time" between the cocoa app and pharo: it is just not good enough to bring a cool user experience (at least in all my experiments it was the case) >> >> There is another possible approach, who I think is the better in the long way, and that is what I was doing with Deimos project: using a bridge to construct, in pharo, real cocoa UI objects... the advantages with this are obvious. Nevertheless, there are also some problems with this approach: >> 1) last year I was working on this, and apple changed a clause. The result can be expressed as if they executed: 'deimos become: shit'. Months after they review the policy, but I was concentrated on Mars (the desktop equivalent to Deimos). I will continue this, but first I want to finish Mars, and also I need to solve the problem below: >> 2) there are also a performance problem with the ObjectiveC plugin and callbacks. In all my experiments, I never went below 70ms executing a callback from cocoa to pharo (and that's necessary, for example, to fill tables). The minimum time needed to have a cool "scroll" effect on tables is 40ms. Of course, iPhone 4 is better than 3gs... but the problem remains. The real thing is that ObjectiveC plugin relies on a semaphore communication model, and that's not good enough. So... I think the better approach here is to port FFI-Callback plugin (latest work of Eliot) to iOS. FFI-Callback plugin uses a whole different approach, who can overcome this performance issues (and some other who's not the case mention here). >> >> So... yes... I would love to finish this soon. But right now, other issues are top in priotity, and I just can't promise a release date. (Of course, the stackvm for iphone will be compiling on hudson some time soon... before ESUG for sure) >> >> hope this can explain all the status... :) >> >> cheers, >> Esteban >> >> El 25/05/2011, a las 11:56a.m., Igor Stasenko escribiÃ³: >> >>> On 25 May 2011 16:22, Steve Wirts <stevewirts(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> Sorry if this topic has been covered in a previous email, I couldn't find >>>> anything conclusive so I'm posting it for my own clarity. >>>> I am a smalltalk programmer at heart but have been working in java at a java >>>> shop for sometime. Recently there's been a very strong directive from >>>> management to "get everything working on an iPad". >>>> I see a great opportunity to introduce pharo at the moment but need a way to >>>> deploy to iPad/iPhone devices. I'm not a c programmer and am overwhelmed at >>>> the thought of trying to build a cog vm for ios devices. >>>> >>>> Is there a binary package of cog vm for iPad/iPhone available somewhere? >>> >>> Ask Esteban! :) >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> >> >> > > > -- > Education 0.2 -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire > >

May 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] cog vm for iOS

by Esteban Lorenzano

Sorry, but no, this is not an option. A theme will never pass the apple quality check :( Esteban El 25/05/2011, a las 1:22p.m., Hilaire Fernandes escribiÃ³: > A third option could be to build a polymorph theme for iPAD. > This is an intermediate option I discussed a bit with Bert, to do a > DrGeo port for iPAD. > Frankly speaking if someone is interested to work with me on that > direction we may be able to produce something in our range and useful > for the community at large. > > Hilaire > > > > > Le 25/05/2011 18:01, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >> Well... I'm going to use this post to talk a bit about Pharo in iOS, because it is more complex than "having a vm working" >> But first, a summary of where we stand: >> 1) The Stack VM is working with iPhone/iPad, but needs some minor adjustments (some tuning). >> One problem here is that I didn't integrate it to CMakeVMMaker (and as a consequence, to hudson), so build it is not a trivial task. But I will, as soon as some one jump and say "hey, I'm going to use it, for real!"... or as soon as I can find a free afternoon... it is planned (and I worked a little on this), but it is not a priority right now :) >> 2) The Cog (I mean, the jitter) will never work on iPad/iPhone, because of the apple license (clause 3.3.2) and because of the security sandbox policy. But I think the Stack VM can do a pretty job. No, I'm not going to prepare this just for recreational purposes because I do not have the time, and the community work I do should be spent in things the community can use... and I think that Eliot (who is, in fact, the one who can do this, I'm just a builder) will think similar :) >> >> So... if we have a vm running on iOS, why there is no a legion of fellow pharoers taking over the appstore? >> >> Well... because it is not enough. >> There are several problems, besides the vm working or not (to be fair, the interpreter vm works on iphone since at least two years, and John is the only one who succeed on pushing some nice smalltalk apps into the appstore). >> The main problem is that our morphic world is ok for desktop working, and some times for desktop commercial apps (like those of pinesoft), but it just can't be used to create real apps for the iPhone/iPad market. There are some exceptions, like some eToys work and probable the developing of games like "tic-tac-toe" or so... (I mean: graphic games who can be done with morphs). But as a general rule, you can't do a real app in pharo/squeak who runs in the iPhone/iPad and can be sold in the appstore. >> To overcome this problem, what John does is to create the full view in Cocoa, and "plug" the model to pharo/squeak images, using pharo as a module of a cocoa application. This can be done for several apps (and the fraction calculator is an example), but fails when you want a deeper interaction (because of the cost, not just in "programming time" but also the "translation time" between the cocoa app and pharo: it is just not good enough to bring a cool user experience (at least in all my experiments it was the case) >> >> There is another possible approach, who I think is the better in the long way, and that is what I was doing with Deimos project: using a bridge to construct, in pharo, real cocoa UI objects... the advantages with this are obvious. Nevertheless, there are also some problems with this approach: >> 1) last year I was working on this, and apple changed a clause. The result can be expressed as if they executed: 'deimos become: shit'. Months after they review the policy, but I was concentrated on Mars (the desktop equivalent to Deimos). I will continue this, but first I want to finish Mars, and also I need to solve the problem below: >> 2) there are also a performance problem with the ObjectiveC plugin and callbacks. In all my experiments, I never went below 70ms executing a callback from cocoa to pharo (and that's necessary, for example, to fill tables). The minimum time needed to have a cool "scroll" effect on tables is 40ms. Of course, iPhone 4 is better than 3gs... but the problem remains. The real thing is that ObjectiveC plugin relies on a semaphore communication model, and that's not good enough. So... I think the better approach here is to port FFI-Callback plugin (latest work of Eliot) to iOS. FFI-Callback plugin uses a whole different approach, who can overcome this performance issues (and some other who's not the case mention here). >> >> So... yes... I would love to finish this soon. But right now, other issues are top in priotity, and I just can't promise a release date. (Of course, the stackvm for iphone will be compiling on hudson some time soon... before ESUG for sure) >> >> hope this can explain all the status... :) >> >> cheers, >> Esteban >> >> El 25/05/2011, a las 11:56a.m., Igor Stasenko escribiÃ³: >> >>> On 25 May 2011 16:22, Steve Wirts <stevewirts(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> Sorry if this topic has been covered in a previous email, I couldn't find >>>> anything conclusive so I'm posting it for my own clarity. >>>> I am a smalltalk programmer at heart but have been working in java at a java >>>> shop for sometime. Recently there's been a very strong directive from >>>> management to "get everything working on an iPad". >>>> I see a great opportunity to introduce pharo at the moment but need a way to >>>> deploy to iPad/iPhone devices. I'm not a c programmer and am overwhelmed at >>>> the thought of trying to build a cog vm for ios devices. >>>> >>>> Is there a binary package of cog vm for iPad/iPhone available somewhere? >>> >>> Ask Esteban! :) >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> >> >> > > > -- > Education 0.2 -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire > >

May 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] cog vm for iOS

by Hilaire Fernandes

A third option could be to build a polymorph theme for iPAD. This is an intermediate option I discussed a bit with Bert, to do a DrGeo port for iPAD. Frankly speaking if someone is interested to work with me on that direction we may be able to produce something in our range and useful for the community at large. Hilaire Le 25/05/2011 18:01, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : > Well... I'm going to use this post to talk a bit about Pharo in iOS, because it is more complex than "having a vm working" > But first, a summary of where we stand: > 1) The Stack VM is working with iPhone/iPad, but needs some minor adjustments (some tuning). > One problem here is that I didn't integrate it to CMakeVMMaker (and as a consequence, to hudson), so build it is not a trivial task. But I will, as soon as some one jump and say "hey, I'm going to use it, for real!"... or as soon as I can find a free afternoon... it is planned (and I worked a little on this), but it is not a priority right now :) > 2) The Cog (I mean, the jitter) will never work on iPad/iPhone, because of the apple license (clause 3.3.2) and because of the security sandbox policy. But I think the Stack VM can do a pretty job. No, I'm not going to prepare this just for recreational purposes because I do not have the time, and the community work I do should be spent in things the community can use... and I think that Eliot (who is, in fact, the one who can do this, I'm just a builder) will think similar :) > > So... if we have a vm running on iOS, why there is no a legion of fellow pharoers taking over the appstore? > > Well... because it is not enough. > There are several problems, besides the vm working or not (to be fair, the interpreter vm works on iphone since at least two years, and John is the only one who succeed on pushing some nice smalltalk apps into the appstore). > The main problem is that our morphic world is ok for desktop working, and some times for desktop commercial apps (like those of pinesoft), but it just can't be used to create real apps for the iPhone/iPad market. There are some exceptions, like some eToys work and probable the developing of games like "tic-tac-toe" or so... (I mean: graphic games who can be done with morphs). But as a general rule, you can't do a real app in pharo/squeak who runs in the iPhone/iPad and can be sold in the appstore. > To overcome this problem, what John does is to create the full view in Cocoa, and "plug" the model to pharo/squeak images, using pharo as a module of a cocoa application. This can be done for several apps (and the fraction calculator is an example), but fails when you want a deeper interaction (because of the cost, not just in "programming time" but also the "translation time" between the cocoa app and pharo: it is just not good enough to bring a cool user experience (at least in all my experiments it was the case) > > There is another possible approach, who I think is the better in the long way, and that is what I was doing with Deimos project: using a bridge to construct, in pharo, real cocoa UI objects... the advantages with this are obvious. Nevertheless, there are also some problems with this approach: > 1) last year I was working on this, and apple changed a clause. The result can be expressed as if they executed: 'deimos become: shit'. Months after they review the policy, but I was concentrated on Mars (the desktop equivalent to Deimos). I will continue this, but first I want to finish Mars, and also I need to solve the problem below: > 2) there are also a performance problem with the ObjectiveC plugin and callbacks. In all my experiments, I never went below 70ms executing a callback from cocoa to pharo (and that's necessary, for example, to fill tables). The minimum time needed to have a cool "scroll" effect on tables is 40ms. Of course, iPhone 4 is better than 3gs... but the problem remains. The real thing is that ObjectiveC plugin relies on a semaphore communication model, and that's not good enough. So... I think the better approach here is to port FFI-Callback plugin (latest work of Eliot) to iOS. FFI-Callback plugin uses a whole different approach, who can overcome this performance issues (and some other who's not the case mention here). > > So... yes... I would love to finish this soon. But right now, other issues are top in priotity, and I just can't promise a release date. (Of course, the stackvm for iphone will be compiling on hudson some time soon... before ESUG for sure) > > hope this can explain all the status... :) > > cheers, > Esteban > > El 25/05/2011, a las 11:56a.m., Igor Stasenko escribiÃ³: > >> On 25 May 2011 16:22, Steve Wirts <stevewirts(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> Sorry if this topic has been covered in a previous email, I couldn't find >>> anything conclusive so I'm posting it for my own clarity. >>> I am a smalltalk programmer at heart but have been working in java at a java >>> shop for sometime. Recently there's been a very strong directive from >>> management to "get everything working on an iPad". >>> I see a great opportunity to introduce pharo at the moment but need a way to >>> deploy to iPad/iPhone devices. I'm not a c programmer and am overwhelmed at >>> the thought of trying to build a cog vm for ios devices. >>> >>> Is there a binary package of cog vm for iPad/iPhone available somewhere? >> >> Ask Esteban! :) >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > > -- Education 0.2 -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire

May 25, 2011

[Pharo-project] [ANN] Dr. Geo II release 11.06

by Hilaire Fernandes

Announced there http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire/index.php?post/drgeo-11-06 The XO version of Dr. Geo II comes with the new COG Smalltalk Virtual Machine from Eliot Miranda, giving an average boost of +300% Feedback welcome! Enjoy Hilaire -- Education 0.2 -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire

May 25, 2011