May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

by Mariano Martinez Peck

+1. I will commit it to OCompletion and then update ConfigurationOfOCompletion. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Thierry Lebourque <zebourk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > That is really great! > Many thanks > > 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > > Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press > > tab all the time > > while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion, > > inserts cr into text. > > > > So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert > > suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Camillo Bruni

On 2011-05-05, at 17:39, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: > > Le 5 mai 2011 Ã 17:32, Toon Verwaest a Ã©crit : > >> On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: >>> >>>> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based... >>> >>> ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also test driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and code what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not only a language as somebody said lately). >>> >>> CÃ©drick >>> >>> [1] see in particular this webcast: http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html >> Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see how it would work without an image: >> >> I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection at my disposal while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I just let the GCC library compile some C code for me; I turn on the executable flag and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C. >> >> This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy bastards). > > ok, true :) > > but, it's not only the debugger... getting senders, implementers, class that use it, methods that contains this word, ... > of course, this is doable with files (see eclipse *sigh*), but I prefer the snappy feeling of an image for that... the snappiness could be easily achieved with a fulltext search index (just look how fast spotlight works on a couple of millions of files on my machine...) The main issue of the image, is that it locks you out, making it close to impossible to use other tools than smalltalk. Though the nice thing about the image is that you can start up your IDE in less than a second, and again, this is not necessarily linked to Smalltalk and could be achieved for C programs as well.

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Dave Mason

On May 5, 2011, at 11:32, Toon Verwaest wrote: > This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy bastards). ... and that it's an order of magnitude more difficult! Yes, there are certainly other aspects of being image-based that are way cool, but iterative code development and debugging is a big part of it. (I am teaching a Java course right now with BlueJ, which is a cool environment (at least if you're not used to an image-based system like Smalltalk). It provides a little UML diagram of your classes, and you can create an object by clicking on the appropriate class, and inspect, and call methods. Objects that you create appear on a "workbench". So I had build up a little example with a few objects, found a bug, and edited the class, hit "compile" and *poof* empty workbench. Yes, in Java they probably could have emulated the image, but it's a lot of work!) ../Dave

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

Le 5 mai 2011 Ã 17:32, Toon Verwaest a Ã©crit : > On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: >> >>> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based... >> >> ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also test driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and code what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not only a language as somebody said lately). >> >> CÃ©drick >> >> [1] see in particular this webcast: http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html > Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see how it would work without an image: > > I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection at my disposal while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I just let the GCC library compile some C code for me; I turn on the executable flag and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C. > > This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy bastards). ok, true :) but, it's not only the debugger... getting senders, implementers, class that use it, methods that contains this word, ... of course, this is doable with files (see eclipse *sigh*), but I prefer the snappy feeling of an image for that...

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

by Thierry Lebourque

That is really great! Many thanks 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press > tab all the time > while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion, > inserts cr into text. > > So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert > suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

by Jimmie Houchin

On 5/5/2011 7:53 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press > tab all the time > while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion, > inserts cr into text. > > So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert > suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr +1 I would love to see this incorporated. It makes autocomplete similar to what I find in other places, like NetBeans, OpenOffice/LibreOffice and such. It makes the context switch between apps effortless instead of requiring a transition period where I go oh yeah, that's how it works here. Thanks. Jimmie

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Toon Verwaest

On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: > >> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based... > > ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge > benefit** of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly > debbuging... and also test driven development (real one [1]) where you > can run incomplete code and code what's missing iteratively when you > need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not only a language as somebody > said lately). > > CÃ©drick > > [1] see in particular this webcast: > http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see how it would work without an image: I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection at my disposal while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I just let the GCC library compile some C code for me; I turn on the executable flag and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C. This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy bastards).

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based... ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also test driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and code what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not only a language as somebody said lately). CÃ©drick [1] see in particular this webcast: http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Serge Stinckwich

Le 5 mai 2011 Ã 20:09, Toon Verwaest <toon.verwaest(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > I do agree in the current setup. That's why I'm working very hard on changing this. I want Smalltalk to be completely compatible at all levels with other languages, so that we can use their libraries rather than having to rewrite them. > > I'm working on it. Stay tuned ;) > Whaooo ! Smalltalk as an universal syntax too access all the libraries. What a great perspective :-) > On 05/05/2011 11:42 AM, Carlo wrote: >> Hi >> >> While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET. >> >> To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are so scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits but, for someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be best. It is still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale integration and there is a serious lack of libraries; something that the Java and .NET (even Ruby) world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That Smalltalk can't do these things but rather that it is more difficult to integrate with the outside world; it's ecosystem is small compared to the J2EE ecosystem. >> >> My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've gained practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to take your career. During this time you should be looking at other languages and practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and learn from them to make you a better software engineer. >> A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language. >> >> BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South Africa when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still... >> Cheers >> Carlo >> >> On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote: >> >> That is a superb response, Toon! >> I could not agree more. >> >> Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-) >> >> Johan >> >> On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. >>> >>> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :) >>> >>> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better. >>> >>> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :) >>> >>> cheers, >>> Toon >>> >>> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk. >>>> >>>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD >>>> >>>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it. >>>> >>>> >>>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of >>>> >>>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development. >>>> >>>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk. >>>> >>>> Thanks&Regards, >>>> >>>> Sourav Roy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now! >> >> >> > >

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

your definition is ok for me :) >> >> Now for pharo we have a vision: >> We want a system to invent the next one and that people can make a living with it. >> - bootstrappable >> - clean lean robust >> - (ideally) good interface with C >> - (ideally) a lovely fast readable documentd extensible VM >> - good infrastructure >> - meta model for code >> - browser for remote/crosscompilation/default browsing >> - new compiler >> - first class instance variable >> - new network layer >> - new graphics >> - new module system >> >> At the end it may not be Smalltalk but it will be the same spirit. I think that we are slowly getting to the point >> where we will start to invent new things instead of just removing old experiences. >> > > I rather believe it will be Smalltalk. After all, consider how different each step of ST-72 to ST-80 was from each other, yet they were all still Smalltalk. >

May 5, 2011