May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

> > Haha.. i have strong suspicion that here you are talking about quite > specific set of libraries, > which using OLE/COM interfaces. Indeed, one could implement an > automatic "import/connect" tool > for it, because a library itself contain enough information reflecting > it interface(s). > You can check Dolphin smalltalk which works only on windows and has > integrated solution for that for years: > In same way like you described, you just pick the library, click "ok" > and its done & ready for use. > True, I was just ready to write the same thing about Dolphin and works very well, transforming OLE objects in Smalltalk objects with their respective methods. But allways you need to know what to do with such objects and methods. And is very dependent of the operating system and the underlying technology. I think that the cooperation with the outside world is needed, but I will not miss the advantages of work in Smalltalk, lot of times is more cheap to develop the needed stuff in Smalltalk than a complex artifact to interact with another technology. Cheers. GermÃ¡n.

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

2011/5/5 CÃ©drick BÃ©ler <cdrick65(a)gmail.com>: > > Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based... > > ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** of > Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also test > driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and code > what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not > only a language as somebody said lately). Super Full Agree! > CÃ©drick > [1]Â see in particular this > webcast:Â http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html --

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Jimmie Houchin

On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: >>> On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> [Big Snip] >>> Well said. >>> Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with >>> foreign libraries. >>> Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you >>> need to have knowledge >>> in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you >>> take any other pair of languages and try to >>> connect them. >> Thanks, >> >> I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in >> using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of >> FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers. >> >> However, this is my experience in Python. >> >> Navigate to the directory containing the script makepy.py or if it is a part >> of your Python's sys.path, execute the script. It generates a Python module >> which is on >> >> It pops up a dialogue which prompts you to select the library you wish to >> interface. >> >> Then to use in a script simply >> import Dispatch >> self.mylib = Dispatch("MyLibrary") >> >> This will expose all the functionality of the library. >> >> All provided by the python win32 extensions. It was very successful for my >> needs. I do not know what limitations it may or may not have. >> >> Very easy for non-expert programmers. I would love this level of ability to >> interface outside libraries in Squeak. But I have no idea the effort >> required to automate the generation of a class or classes which interface >> the external library. >> >> In my particular instance this is obviously for a Windows library. I don't >> know if Python has anything comparable for Linux or OSX. >> >> In this particular instance, Python was enabling for me, for which I am >> grateful. Otherwise I might be stuck writing my app in VisualBasic. But >> despite my gratefulness, I spend as little time in Python as possible. >> Despite Python not requiring a compiler, I really hate going to an editor >> and writing code. Then to an interpreter to run code. Hit my stacktrace. Go >> back to the editor. Reload the module in the interpreter and run again, and >> if that doesn't succeed due to the reload not really reloading the new code, >> open in a new interpreter. Ugh!!! Where's my Smalltalk. Give my live object >> system. :) > Haha.. i have strong suspicion that here you are talking about quite > specific set of libraries, > which using OLE/COM interfaces. Indeed, one could implement an > automatic "import/connect" tool > for it, because a library itself contain enough information reflecting > it interface(s). > You can check Dolphin smalltalk which works only on windows and has > integrated solution for that for years: > In same way like you described, you just pick the library, click "ok" > and its done& ready for use. > > But that would be too easy if you could do same with any other library > in your system. > So, if you feel adventurous, try to check what Python can do with > libraries like Kernel32.dll > or User32.dll. I am sure it can do as little as Smalltalk in this > regard, but you are free to check it yourself :) As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but that it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am very preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all accounts. I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools that allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing. However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive. http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html """ ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C compatible data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It can be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python. 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries ctypes exports the /cdll/, and on Windows /windll/ and /oledll/ objects, for loading dynamic link libraries. You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. /cdll/ loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling convention, while /windll/ libraries call functions using the stdcall calling convention. /oledll/ also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes the functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call fails. Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard C library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling convention: >>> from ctypes import * >>> print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS <WinDLL 'kernel32', handle ... at ...> >>> print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS <CDLL 'msvcrt', handle ... at ...> >>> libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS >> """ It has examples for windows and linux. I didn't read it all as I am unqualified to assess its capabilities or limitations, nor do I presently need it as the win32 extensions do easily and well what I presently need to do. Hopefully it can inform us as to what is expected and doable in alternative languages which are dynamic like Smalltalk. Jimmie

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

2011/5/5 Toon Verwaest <toon.verwaest(a)gmail.com>: > > > For me, Java and .NET have never really been worth knowing. > +1 I can't really imagine anything worse than the artifacts of .net "technology".

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Steve Taylor

On 05/05/11 22:11, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html And of those many good books I'd put in a particular word for "Smalltalk By Example" by Alex Sharp. I found it particularly straightforward and helpful when I was starting out. http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks/ByExample/ Steve

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by Alain rastoul

Nice vision. I want it now :) I think smalltalk is the best choice for that - you know better than me of course However to make a living with it, it has to interface with other IT systems and standards, so that developers can make an sell a part of the system. Pharo has seaside-web on one end but may be something is missing with relational databases. They are today the heart of business information systems (I have to try dbx and glorp , odbc is not usable because of locks) Side note, I often wondered myself why object databases didn't catch? Technical issues? Marketing? Btw, pharo has taken a good direction. Nice work. I'll try and see if I can help in this field (databases) which is one of my skill Cheers Alain -- Alain_rastoul

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Preferred way of removing slice from Inbox

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:22 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > > On May 5, 2011, at 9:00 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Once a SLICE is integrated in PharoCore, how do you remove it from > PharoInbox ? > > via boring click click click squeaksource interface > > mmmmmm shouldn't we be able to create a simple Gofer script that do that? lukas? -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

by Igor Stasenko

On 5 May 2011 22:46, Thierry Lebourque <zebourk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > In my opinion, completion should not select anything when activated > automatically, it is only suggestion. It is the user who choose to use > it or not, by using tab or arrow, for example. If the completion is > requested intentionally it should behave as described by Doru. > Yes, it should not select anything (even if there's only choice), and only if user pressing keys to select an item from drop-down list (like up/down/tab), then selection should be enabled. Otherwise autocompletion should just hang around and not interfere with user's input until he typed mentioned keys, which effectively changes input focus to a menu instead of text editor. > I have used quite a lot of different IDE, and sometimes I find the > Pharo completion quite disturbing. > > But as StÃ©phane said, it could maybe become a setting. > > 2011/5/5 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> yes I asked romain to bind the auto complete to enter and we removed it. >> Now probably having one setting would be good. >> >> Stef >> >> On May 5, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward. >>> >>> We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like this in Glamour: >>> >>> ... >>> Â Â Â a tree >>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â display: [ ... ] >>> >>> After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want. >>> >>> The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text. >>> >>> >>> Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has two modes: >>> 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and >>> 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion item. >>> >>> For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> <example-glamour-fluent-api.png> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote: >>> >>>> That is really great! >>>> Many thanks >>>> >>>> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>>>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press >>>>> tab all the time >>>>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion, >>>>> inserts cr into text. >>>>> >>>>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert >>>>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." >>> >> >> >> > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: >> >> On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> Â wrote: > > [Big Snip] >> >> Well said. >> Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with >> foreign libraries. >> Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you >> need to have knowledge >> in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you >> take any other pair of languages and try to >> connect them. > > Thanks, > > I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in > using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of > FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers. > > However, this is my experience in Python. > > Navigate to the directory containing the script makepy.py or if it is a part > of your Python's sys.path, execute the script. It generates a Python module > which is on > > It pops up a dialogue which prompts you to select the library you wish to > interface. > > Then to use in a script simply > import Dispatch > self.mylib = Dispatch("MyLibrary") > > This will expose all the functionality of the library. > > All provided by the python win32 extensions. It was very successful for my > needs. I do not know what limitations it may or may not have. > > Very easy for non-expert programmers. I would love this level of ability to > interface outside libraries in Squeak. But I have no idea the effort > required to automate the generation of a class or classes which interface > the external library. > > In my particular instance this is obviously for a Windows library. I don't > know if Python has anything comparable for Linux or OSX. > > In this particular instance, Python was enabling for me, for which I am > grateful. Otherwise I might be stuck writing my app in VisualBasic. But > despite my gratefulness, I spend as little time in Python as possible. > Despite Python not requiring a compiler, I really hate going to an editor > and writing code. Then to an interpreter to run code. Hit my stacktrace. Go > back to the editor. Reload the module in the interpreter and run again, and > if that doesn't succeed due to the reload not really reloading the new code, > open in a new interpreter. Ugh!!! Â Where's my Smalltalk. Give my live object > system. :) > Haha.. i have strong suspicion that here you are talking about quite specific set of libraries, which using OLE/COM interfaces. Indeed, one could implement an automatic "import/connect" tool for it, because a library itself contain enough information reflecting it interface(s). You can check Dolphin smalltalk which works only on windows and has integrated solution for that for years: In same way like you described, you just pick the library, click "ok" and its done & ready for use. But that would be too easy if you could do same with any other library in your system. So, if you feel adventurous, try to check what Python can do with libraries like Kernel32.dll or User32.dll. I am sure it can do as little as Smalltalk in this regard, but you are free to check it yourself :) > Jimmie > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

by Thierry Lebourque

In my opinion, completion should not select anything when activated automatically, it is only suggestion. It is the user who choose to use it or not, by using tab or arrow, for example. If the completion is requested intentionally it should behave as described by Doru. I have used quite a lot of different IDE, and sometimes I find the Pharo completion quite disturbing. But as StÃ©phane said, it could maybe become a setting. 2011/5/5 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > yes I asked romain to bind the auto complete to enter and we removed it. > Now probably having one setting would be good. > > Stef > > On May 5, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward. >> >> We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like this in Glamour: >> >> ... >> Â Â Â a tree >> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â display: [ ... ] >> >> After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want. >> >> The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text. >> >> >> Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has two modes: >> 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and >> 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion item. >> >> For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> <example-glamour-fluent-api.png> >> >> >> >> On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote: >> >>> That is really great! >>> Many thanks >>> >>> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press >>>> tab all the time >>>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion, >>>> inserts cr into text. >>>> >>>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert >>>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Best regards, >>>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." >> > > >

May 5, 2011