May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On May 6, 2011, at 11:19 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > > On 06 May 2011, at 10:55, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> I would really like to have a good layer build on glorp to support easy CRUDE in Smalltalk >> The problem of Glorp was that it is a bit heavyweight. > > Actually, IMHO, it would be a waste to dismiss Glorp as being too old or too complex. This is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that making sure that building CRUDE really easily using Glorp would be really nice to have. > It is a very nice OR framework that capable of taking on other well known OR tools in other languages. > > Yes, it is a bit complex to get started, but persistence is not easy once you get past HelloWorld and once you have more data. > > But you are right, some layer on top of Glorp would be nice. Now, such things do exists (similar to ActiveRecord). > > Sven > > PS: for a simple tutorial involing Glorp: http://homepage.mac.com/svc/Reddit.st/ I will read it :) I would love to have a chapter on Glorp for the new book. > > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Toon Verwaest

> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. > Now we can take the book contents and generate html > We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > People are free to join and write one or two chapters. Generating HTML already seems like a good idea. I like the HTML version of SICP a lot for example.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 06 May 2011, at 10:55, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > I would really like to have a good layer build on glorp to support easy CRUDE in Smalltalk > The problem of Glorp was that it is a bit heavyweight. Actually, IMHO, it would be a waste to dismiss Glorp as being too old or too complex. It is a very nice OR framework that capable of taking on other well known OR tools in other languages. Yes, it is a bit complex to get started, but persistence is not easy once you get past HelloWorld and once you have more data. But you are right, some layer on top of Glorp would be nice. Now, such things do exists (similar to ActiveRecord). Sven PS: for a simple tutorial involing Glorp: http://homepage.mac.com/svc/Reddit.st/

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? >> Or a bug fix? >> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. > No need to get into a cat-fight here :) No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website? If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. Now we can take the book contents and generate html We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. People are free to join and write one or two chapters. Stef

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Relational Databases [WAS] Re: Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:55 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> >> On May 6, 2011, at 10:44 AM, Alain rastoul wrote: >> >> > I used odbc-ffi and they are serious problem with the single threaded >> vm, you can lock the vm with only 2 connections. >> > That's what I want to check with dbx. I m also interested in glorp. >> >> I would really like to have a good layer build on glorp to support easy >> CRUDE in Smalltalk >> The problem of Glorp was that it is a bit heavyweight. >> > > Well...DBXTalk is working on several fronts: > > 1) Port the new GLorp to Pharo: in fact, Guillermo has already ONLY 15 red > tests over 800 :) with the new port. Only with Postgres....but we will move > soon to the rest. > 2) Guille will continue to port the Glorp Active Record package, which is > kind of what you want > 3) Santiago is working in a Magritte based tool to describe your model and > be able to do easy CRUD. > > ups I forgot.. 4) and Gisela is working in a Moose/Glamour based browser for interacting with the database :) > Cheers > > Mariano > > > >> >> > . Sqlite is good for standalone or small apps. >> > I'm talking of small to medium business systems from 1-10 users (small) >> to 500 (medium) computer users - where customers have dba and other >> admistrators who impose things like sql server or oracle. >> > Postgresql could be also a player - don't know. >> > I feel that pharo could take a place here with seaside apps >> > >> > -- >> > Alain_rastoul >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Relational Databases [WAS] Re: Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > > I used odbc-ffi and they are serious problem with the single threaded vm, you can lock the vm with only 2 connections. > > That's what I want to check with dbx. I m also interested in glorp. > > I would really like to have a good layer build on glorp to support easy CRUDE in Smalltalk > The problem of Glorp was that it is a bit heavyweight. > > Well...DBXTalk is working on several fronts: > > 1) Port the new GLorp to Pharo: in fact, Guillermo has already ONLY 15 red tests over 800 :) with the new port. Only with Postgres....but we will move soon to the rest. > 2) Guille will continue to port the Glorp Active Record package, which is kind of what you want > 3) Santiago is working in a Magritte based tool to describe your model and be able to do easy CRUD. Cool. I would really like to see how we can improve Magritte to support some basic container: Association Array OrderedCollection Stef

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Toon Verwaest

> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? > Or a bug fix? > I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. No need to get into a cat-fight here :) I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website?

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Toon Verwaest

So what do you suggest? On 05/06/2011 10:55 AM, Stefan Marr wrote: > On 06 May 2011, at 10:30, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Igor >> >> We should face it: the FFI and Alien... are not that simple. Laurent spent time to try to cnnect to libs and it did >> not work. So we should really improve that aspect. >> Igor not everbody is able to code in assembler for nativeboost. >> So NB is probably a good insfrastructure but not ready for consumption for everybody. >> The interaction with C should be improved :) >> >> Stef > No, Stef, you didn't get it! > It is documentation which needs to be improved in the first place. Documentation and its presentation. You know another reason why people love PHP? It is an ugly and awful language, but absolutely everything you ever want to do is covered in the docs, because people actually add examples and comments. > > And frankly, you book efforts are certainly interesting, but far from being as visible and as accessible as online docs of other languages. That's what Smalltalk sucks at, accessible online documentation. People do google when they have a problem. If it does not pop up on the first page, it does not exists. > > My impression of Smalltalk documentation is, it is non-existing. I usually do not even care to google, because it is unlikely that I find something. Instead I ask people. (And if you look at the traffic on the mailing list, thats not just me) > That's a community issue, a problem of culture. I would never think about asking anyone if I have a problem with Python or PHP. I know everything is just a few google hits away. > > Ah, and tooling of course... > > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi stefan I disagree with the C integration. This is still not really good in Pharo and I agree with Jimmie. Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? Or a bug fix? I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. Stef >> Igor >> >> We should face it: the FFI and Alien... are not that simple. Laurent spent time to try to cnnect to libs and it did >> not work. So we should really improve that aspect. >> Igor not everbody is able to code in assembler for nativeboost. >> So NB is probably a good insfrastructure but not ready for consumption for everybody. >> The interaction with C should be improved :) >> >> Stef > > No, Stef, you didn't get it! > It is documentation which needs to be improved in the first place. Documentation and its presentation. You know another reason why people love PHP? It is an ugly and awful language, but absolutely everything you ever want to do is covered in the docs, because people actually add examples and comments. > > And frankly, you book efforts are certainly interesting, but far from being as visible and as accessible as online docs of other languages. That's what Smalltalk sucks at, accessible online documentation. People do google when they have a problem. If it does not pop up on the first page, it does not exists. > > My impression of Smalltalk documentation is, it is non-existing. I usually do not even care to google, because it is unlikely that I find something. Instead I ask people. (And if you look at the traffic on the mailing list, thats not just me) > That's a community issue, a problem of culture. I would never think about asking anyone if I have a problem with Python or PHP. I know everything is just a few google hits away. > > Ah, and tooling of course... > > > > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: +32 2 629 3525 > >

May 6, 2011

[Pharo-project] Relational Databases [WAS] Re: Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:55 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > > On May 6, 2011, at 10:44 AM, Alain rastoul wrote: > > > I used odbc-ffi and they are serious problem with the single threaded vm, > you can lock the vm with only 2 connections. > > That's what I want to check with dbx. I m also interested in glorp. > > I would really like to have a good layer build on glorp to support easy > CRUDE in Smalltalk > The problem of Glorp was that it is a bit heavyweight. > Well...DBXTalk is working on several fronts: 1) Port the new GLorp to Pharo: in fact, Guillermo has already ONLY 15 red tests over 800 :) with the new port. Only with Postgres....but we will move soon to the rest. 2) Guille will continue to port the Glorp Active Record package, which is kind of what you want 3) Santiago is working in a Magritte based tool to describe your model and be able to do easy CRUD. Cheers Mariano > > > . Sqlite is good for standalone or small apps. > > I'm talking of small to medium business systems from 1-10 users (small) > to 500 (medium) computer users - where customers have dba and other > admistrators who impose things like sql server or oracle. > > Postgresql could be also a player - don't know. > > I feel that pharo could take a place here with seaside apps > > > > -- > > Alain_rastoul > > > > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 6, 2011