May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 10:30, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Igor > > We should face it: the FFI and Alien... are not that simple. Laurent spent time to try to cnnect to libs and it did > not work. So we should really improve that aspect. > Igor not everbody is able to code in assembler for nativeboost. I am not presumed that everyone should. But just don't fall into delusion, that you can start using external library (either written in C or C# or in Java), without knowing at all the foreign language in which library are written, and just after few mouse clicks in Pharo image. The library are written not in smalltalk, and if you need to use it, you have to be prepared. You cannot avoid that. That's my point. > So NB is probably a good insfrastructure but not ready for consumption for everybody. Mind telling me, what is missing? I am eager for improving and making it easy to use. > The interaction with C should be improved :) > How? Any clues? How else it could be improved in addition to be able to define, which function you going to call and using which library? How else it could be done? Parsing C headers and automatically generating bindings? This is doable. But it still will require manual effort. You cannot build an auto-generator to be intelligent enough to detect all specific aspects, which used in library. Read a http://www.swig.org/ they having a plugin system (and at some point i even written a smalltalk plugin for it). But even then, for generating a specific library bindings, you still have to provide a script/configuration for your library. Because if you run it in automatic mode, in most cases you'll end up with a lot of useless and/or broken stuff. Translating (producing wrappers) from one language into another requires intelligent effort, it cannot be fully automated. > Stef > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] ODBC Connection in Pharo 1.1.1

by sourav roy

Great...Thanks for the info...This will really help me in exploring Smalltalk.RegardsSourav | Bangalore | India Original message From:"Serge Stinckwich"< serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com >Date: 6 May 11 12:59:30Subject: Re: [Pharoproject] ODBC Connection in Pharo 1.1.1To: Pharoproject(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr; Sudhakar Krishnamachari Hi Sourav,I think you need also to connect to Indian Smalltalkers. There aresome at Bengalore.I hope to visit them some day soon.Have a look at the indian Smalltalk mailinglist here:http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/smalltalkindia/You could also contact Skrish (in CC).Regards,On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:05 PM, sourav roywrote:>> Hi All,>> Can any one explain me how to establish an ODBC connection in> PharoSmalltalk and Database programming (Any document or explanation).>> Thanks&Regards>> Sourav | Bangalore | India>> Dear pharoproject ! Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!>> Dear pharoproject ! Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now! Se rge StinckwichUMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, VietnamEvery DSL ends up being Smalltalkhttp://doesnotunderstand.org/Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 06 May 2011, at 13:56, Johan Brichau wrote: > When I program in Smalltalk, I have a lot of open code browsers in my image > When I program in Java/Javascript/..., I have a lot of open web pages on my desktop +1111 Browsing in a Smalltalk image should be self-documenting, not just because of comments, but because of beautiful, understandable code. A Dan Ingalls quote from "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" ( http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/smalltalk.html ) Just to get warmed up, I'll start with a principle that is more social than technical and that is largely responsible for the particular bias of the Smalltalk project: Personal Mastery: If a system is to serve the creative spirit, it must be entirely comprehensible to a single individual. An excellent read, this document, by the way! Sven

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] PBE in HTML [was: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry]

by laurent laffont

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:56 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html. > > On OSX with MacTex-2010 installed, I've tried git clone --depth 1 https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-english.git cd PharoByExample-english/ htlatex PBE1.tex "html,2" Then open PBE1.html , one page per chapter. See http://www.tug.org/applications/tex4ht/mn-commands.html Laurent. > Stef > > > > > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. > > Any ideas? > > > > I've used latex2html several years ago. > > > > +1 for html > > > > Laurent. > > > > > > > > >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation > for any part of the system? > > >>>> Or a bug fix? > > >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We > welcome comments/examples help. > > >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > > >> > > >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > > >> > > >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but > I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start > with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until > now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great > website? > > >> > > >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a > documentation. > > >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html > > >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > > >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. > > > > > > StÃ©phane, > > > > > > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action > does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation. > > > > > > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist > (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki > site (although these have their place as well). > > > > > > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, > young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is > copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of > cases you find some real answers in the first page. > > > > > > This is also related to popularity of course. > > > > > > Sven > > > > > > > > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by sourav roy

HI All,I really got lost into this thread and was blown by the conversation which took place here ;). but i feel good as this has led people to think about the need for a serious documentation. And i feel it will be much welcome by the newbies to Smalltalk and will help in popularizing it.Regards,Sourav | Bangalore | India Original message From:"Nicolas Cellier"< nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com >Date: 6 May 11 15:37:49Subject: Re: [Pharoproject] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software IndustryTo: Pharoproject(a)lists.gforge.inria.frGuys, this is crazy, this is a runaway thread ;)Please, please, a bit more empathy for newcomers would not hurt:change the subject in such cases.Welcome to Sourav, don't be afraid to ask this list for anything obscure.and congratulations to Toon for initial answer.Nicolas2011/5/6 StÃ©phane Ducasse :> Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html.>> Stef>>>>> Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex.>> Any ideas?>>>> I've used latex2html several years ago.>>>> +1 for html>>>> Laurent.>>>>>>>> >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system?>> >>>> Or a bug fix?>> >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help.>> >>> No need to get into a catfight here :)>> >>>> >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help?>> >>>> >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website?>> >>>> >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation.>> >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html>> >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one.>> >> People are free to join and write o ne or two chapters.>> >>> > StÃ©phane,>> >>> > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation.>> >>> > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki site (although these have their place as well).>> >>> > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page.>> >>> > This is also related to popularity of course.>> >>> > Sven>>>>>>>>>Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!

May 6, 2011

[Pharo-project] PetitParser puzzle

by Damien Pollet

I have a unit test for a parser of mine: testLine self fail: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineBlank. "passes" self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineNonBlank. "passes" self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #line. "end of input expected at 0" Now the fun part: line ^ lineBlank / lineNonBlank For reference, here are the rest of the involved rules: blank ^ #blank asParser lineBlank ^ blank star lineNonBlank ^ blank star , blank not , lineEnd negate plus lineEnd ^ (Character lf asParser) / (Character cr asParser , Character lf asParser optional) Insights ? -- Damien Pollet type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Johan Brichau

On 06 May 2011, at 12:57, Stefan Marr wrote: > Unfortunately, Smalltalkers don't know anything outside the image... Exactly, and most of the time, it's all you need. I remark a funny difference between developing in Smalltalk and developing in any other language (say, Java, Javascript, Objective-C, ...): When I program in Smalltalk, I have a lot of open code browsers in my image When I program in Java/Javascript/..., I have a lot of open web pages on my desktop That surely does not invalidate the need for more and better documentation. The documentation for Alien I saw 2 years ago was just sad. But when you compare FFI and Alien with the DLLCC of Visualworks, Stef is *definitely* right too. I started out building a layer for Alien some time ago (in the context of JavaConnect for Pharo) but I eventually had to stop... (making a living takes time too). Johan

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Stefan Marr

Sorry for the flam below. I didn't have the time and energy to rewrite it. >>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? >>> Or a bug fix? >>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. No, I report things on the mailing list, and I complain here and there about the narrow-mindedness of Smalltalk-evangelists. And when it comes to documentation, I document that RoarVM you might have heard of. If that is not interesting for you, sorry, we just don't share the same interests. >> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > > No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? Stef, if you haven't noticed: I don't care about Smalltalk, and I don't care about Pharo, or any other language out there in particular. I don't share your vision, I have other goals in life. The only thing I do here is to point out the obvious (at least from my narrow-minded perspective). > If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. > Now we can take the book contents and generate html > We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > People are free to join and write one or two chapters. That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. You need a good entry level book, that is all it takes. The rest is great online documentation. Unfortunately, Smalltalkers don't know anything outside the image... I don't know how other people work, but I never look into books when I program. They just don't work. They are slow, outdated and hard to search in. Honestly, I don't understand why books are a priority for you when you want to develop a community. You got a good entry level book, so what is the motivation to write another one? As I said, that is obviously my point of view, based on the way my workflow works. I prepare now Clojure assignments for my students, and there is also not a lot documentation out there, but all I need is centrally accessible at a place I easily identified with google. There is exactly one important window on my screen: http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html Thanks to my browsers search, everything is there. The Clojure book on my desk is just lying there and collecting dust... Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Nicolas Cellier

Guys, this is crazy, this is a runaway thread ;) Please, please, a bit more empathy for newcomers would not hurt: change the subject in such cases. Welcome to Sourav, don't be afraid to ask this list for anything obscure. and congratulations to Toon for initial answer. Nicolas 2011/5/6 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html. > > Stef > > > >> Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. >> Any ideas? >> >> I've used latex2html several years ago. >> >> +1 for html >> >> Laurent. >> >> >> >> >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? >> >>>> Or a bug fix? >> >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. >> >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) >> >> >> >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? >> >> >> >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website? >> >> >> >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. >> >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html >> >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. >> >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. >> > >> > StÃ©phane, >> > >> > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation. >> > >> > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki site (although these have their place as well). >> > >> > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page. >> > >> > This is also related to popularity of course. >> > >> > Sven >> >> >> > > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html. Stef > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. > Any ideas? > > I've used latex2html several years ago. > > +1 for html > > Laurent. > > > > >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? > >>>> Or a bug fix? > >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. > >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > >> > >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > >> > >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website? > >> > >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. > >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html > >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. > > > > StÃ©phane, > > > > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation. > > > > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki site (although these have their place as well). > > > > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page. > > > > This is also related to popularity of course. > > > > Sven > > >

May 6, 2011