May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Miguel CobÃ¡

El vie, 06-05-2011 a las 12:57 +0200, Stefan Marr escribiÃ³: > Sorry for the flam below. I didn't have the time and energy to rewrite it. > > > >>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? > >>> Or a bug fix? > >>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. > No, I report things on the mailing list, and I complain here and there about the narrow-mindedness of Smalltalk-evangelists. > And when it comes to documentation, I document that RoarVM you might have heard of. If that is not interesting for you, sorry, we just don't share the same interests. > > >> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > > > > No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > Stef, if you haven't noticed: I don't care about Smalltalk, and I don't care about Pharo, or any other language out there in particular. I don't share your vision, I have other goals in life. > So what are you doing here, the less the noise the best for everyone else. You don't contribute, you only criticize, and then you said you don't care, the we don't care about your "opinion". You can keep it for yourself. > The only thing I do here is to point out the obvious (at least from my narrow-minded perspective). > > > > If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. > > Now we can take the book contents and generate html > > We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > > People are free to join and write one or two chapters. > > That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. > You need a good entry level book, that is all it takes. > The rest is great online documentation. > Umm, or you are very young or completely lost your mind. Internet as we know today has a decade at most. The documentation you as happy use now didn't existe 20 years ago. But, doesn't a lot of code was written more than 20 years ago. How is that possible just with fucking books and without google. That is BS. > Unfortunately, Smalltalkers don't know anything outside the image... > > I don't know how other people work, but I never look into books when I program. They just don't work. > They are slow, outdated and hard to search in. > > Honestly, I don't understand why books are a priority for you when you want to develop a community. > You got a good entry level book, so what is the motivation to write another one? Because not everyone is so "smart" as you and we sometimes need to read a book in a more directed way that a simple API list and no way to see how is used. Also, check the Squeak wiki. Almost useless and nobody that is putting new content to it these days. On the other hands, the Pharo by example and seaside pier books or the HPI Seaside books are doing more for smalltalk than you want to accept. -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Dave Mason

On May 6, 2011, at 05:34, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. > Any ideas? HeVeA - it's even an Inria thing! http://hevea.inria.fr/ ../Dave

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Serge Stinckwich

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Dave Mason <dmason(a)mason-rose.ca> wrote: > > On May 6, 2011, at 05:25, Toon Verwaest wrote: > >>> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. >>> Now we can take the book contents and generate html >>> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. >>> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. >> Generating HTML already seems like a good idea. I like the HTML version of SICP a lot for example. > > +100 > > Google (and others) *are* key. Â I and many others have huge sets of bookmarks we never access because Google has become fast enough and authoritative enough that it's always the source I turn to first for information about almost anything. > > Turn the book into a web-based tutorial, and get all of us to link to it, get it listed in references for programming language stuff, such as Wikipedia pages on smalltalk etc, LtU, and others and do some other SEO. Yes, we need some SEO expert to enhance Smalltalk rank ;-) Another aspect important is to have searchable SqueakSource projects. -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Dave Mason

On May 6, 2011, at 05:25, Toon Verwaest wrote: >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. > Generating HTML already seems like a good idea. I like the HTML version of SICP a lot for example. +100 Google (and others) *are* key. I and many others have huge sets of bookmarks we never access because Google has become fast enough and authoritative enough that it's always the source I turn to first for information about almost anything. Turn the book into a web-based tutorial, and get all of us to link to it, get it listed in references for programming language stuff, such as Wikipedia pages on smalltalk etc, LtU, and others and do some other SEO. ../Dave

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Instantiations forum moved to forum.world.st!

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Thanks Geert. Your efforts in world.st are incredible valuable for the Smalltalk community! cheers mariano On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com>wrote: > I am happy to announce that Instantions' forum has joined all the other > forums on http://forum.world.st forum.world.st and is now available at > http://forum.world.st/Instantiations-f3404935.html > forum.world.st/Instantiations-f3404935.html > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Instantiations-forum-moved-to-forum-world-st-tp350290… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

May 6, 2011

[Pharo-project] Instantiations forum moved to forum.world.st!

by Geert Claes

I am happy to announce that Instantions' forum has joined all the other forums on http://forum.world.st forum.world.st and is now available at http://forum.world.st/Instantiations-f3404935.html forum.world.st/Instantiations-f3404935.html -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Instantiations-forum-moved-to-forum-world-st-tp350290… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 07:11, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 6 May 2011 01:03, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: >> > >> > On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: >> > >> > On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> Â wrote: >> > >> > [Big Snip] >> > >> > Well said. >> > Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with >> > foreign libraries. >> > Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you >> > need to have knowledge >> > in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you >> > take any other pair of languages and try to >> > connect them. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved >> > in >> > using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of >> > FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers. >> > >> >> So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :) >> >> > As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but >> > that >> > it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I >> > know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use >> > non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am >> > very >> > preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all >> > accounts. >> > I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it >> > introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools >> > that >> > allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing. >> > >> > However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such >> > capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive. >> > >> > http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html >> > >> > """ >> > ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C >> > compatible >> > data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It >> > can >> > be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python. >> > >> > 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries >> > >> > ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for >> > loading dynamic link libraries. >> > >> > You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. >> > cdll >> > loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling >> > convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall >> > calling >> > convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes >> > the >> > functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to >> > automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call >> > fails. >> > >> > Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard >> > C >> > library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling >> > convention: >> > >> >>>> from ctypes import * >> >>>> print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS >> > <WinDLL 'kernel32', handle ... at ...> >> >>>> print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS >> > <CDLL 'msvcrt', handle ... at ...> >> >>>> libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS >> >>> >> > >> >> So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo? >> Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python? >> >> >> > """ >> > >> > It has examples for windows and linux. >> > >> >> I feel that you are seriously under-informed. >> Just try googling for: >> >> Squeak + FFI >> Alien >> >> NativeBoost >> >> and just check what you can do using it: >> >> http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/ >> >> also check mail archives. >> >> Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look >> for what you need by yourself? >> Are google.com banned by your ISP? >> >> For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information >> (while being available openly) didn't catch your >> attention , so you using python instead. >> (Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to >> automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces). >> But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions >> on mailing list, you will probably discover that >> there is already work being done in that direction. > > > Indeed, one thing FFI / Alien / NB don't have is a documentation as nice > asÂ http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html > Â inÂ http://book.pharo-project.org/ > FFI / Alien / NB may be powerful, it seems I've never managed to do what I > want, even with all mailing lists support (search mails on yaz / z3950 or > id3taglib). In Python it works on OSX out of the box (I've just tried :) > Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries you mention, or you did it by yourself? Here a first hit from google search: http://lists.indexdata.dk/pipermail/yazlist/2002-May/000269.html <quote> I wrote these files for more than 2 years ago to play with SWIG and PERL, they are far from being used, but I have just done a fast perl test and the results were just fine. zclient.c zclient.h zclinet.i swig interface file The zclient_wrap.c will be created as > swig -python zclient.i which should be compiled and linked with the rest </quote> So? Do you think it was easy in first place to a guy who did it from scratch? Now you can easily use it (and its just works out of the box). But it is because someone did it before you! And if you gonna repeat same from scratch, then you will have to learn: - C - SWIG - Python so, do you still think that it easier to do that in Python than in Smalltalk? > But when I was working with Python and Ruby several years ago things was > easy (for my needs), I think because of documentation. > Laurent > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 15:42, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2011/5/6 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> >> >> But just don't fall into delusion, that you can start using external >> library (either written in C or C# or in Java), >> without knowing at all the foreign language in which library are >> written, and just after few mouse clicks in Pharo image. >> > > Hello, > > In last week I implement java binding with some C library (it containes > callbacks). Before I never doing this kind of work in java. > And It will not simple task. I use JNA - analogous FFI libraries in > smalltalk. > So I done it. And It work from my tests. But when I deploy It to apatch > server as servlet it cant work. Java craches in arbitrarily places of dll > calling.Solutions will be simplest C dll wrapper which provides two > functions without callbacks. > Similar problems will be when we doing java connect to com-object. Solutions > will be C# socket server :)) > > So Java connection to foreign world is not easy. Although there is good > docs. > > That's what i trying to say. Someone have to get his hands dirty and do it. Fail, fix & repeat until its done. There is no magic. And it always will be hard and error prone. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Denis Kudriashov

2011/5/6 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > But just don't fall into delusion, that you can start using external > library (either written in C or C# or in Java), > without knowing at all the foreign language in which library are > written, and just after few mouse clicks in Pharo image. > > Hello, In last week I implement java binding with some C library (it containes callbacks). Before I never doing this kind of work in java. And It will not simple task. I use JNA - analogous FFI libraries in smalltalk. So I done it. And It work from my tests. But when I deploy It to apatch server as servlet it cant work. Java craches in arbitrarily places of dll calling.Solutions will be simplest C dll wrapper which provides two functions without callbacks. Similar problems will be when we doing java connect to com-object. Solutions will be C# socket server :)) So Java connection to foreign world is not easy. Although there is good docs.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 08:04, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 5/5/2011 8:19 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: >> >> On 6 May 2011 01:03, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> Â wrote: >>> >>> On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: >>> >>> On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> Â wrote: >>> >>> On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: >>> >>> On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> Â Â wrote: >>> >>> [Big Snip] >>> >>> Well said. >>> Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with >>> foreign libraries. >>> Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you >>> need to have knowledge >>> in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you >>> take any other pair of languages and try to >>> connect them. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in >>> using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of >>> FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers. >> >> So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :) > > Yes, I know. But like many, my time is limited. I program my app in my spare > time. I have a full-time+ job and a very large family who want some of my > time. > No-no-no. Don't say that. We're all having own constraints. :) >>> As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but >>> that >>> it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I >>> know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use >>> non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am >>> very >>> preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all >>> accounts. >>> I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it >>> introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools >>> that >>> allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing. >>> >>> However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such >>> capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive. >>> >>> http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html >>> >>> """ >>> ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C compatible >>> data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It >>> can >>> be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python. >>> >>> 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries >>> >>> ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for >>> loading dynamic link libraries. >>> >>> You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. cdll >>> loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling >>> convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall >>> calling >>> convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes >>> the >>> functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to >>> automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call >>> fails. >>> >>> Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard C >>> library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling >>> convention: >>>>>> >>>>>> from ctypes import * >>>>>> print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS >>> >>> <WinDLL 'kernel32', handle ... at ...> >>>>>> >>>>>> print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS >>> >>> <CDLL 'msvcrt', handle ... at ...> >>>>>> >>>>>> libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS >> >> So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo? >> Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python? > > I never said it couldn't be done in Pharo or Squeak. What I said is that I > lack the skills to do so in Pharo. > > It isn't a two lines of code an your off and running. Which is what Python > provided me. Ok, in total, my Python code is more like 500 lines. It > interfaces the COM DLL and serves the data to my Pharo app which provides > all of my business logic. The Python app is simply an interface and gateway. > No business logic. > Check the http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3773 It may not work with Pharo out of the box. But then it is really up to people who care about it: - do you want it to be working? Then do something, ask people, ask for help, organize & communicate. >>> """ >>> It has examples for windows and linux. >> >> I feel that you are seriously under-informed. >> Just try googling for: >> >> Squeak + FFI >> Alien >> >> NativeBoost >> >> and just check what you can do using it: >> >> http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/ >> >> also check mail archives. >> >> Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look >> for what you need by yourself? >> Are google.com banned by your ISP? >> >> For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information >> (while being available openly) didn't catch your >> attention , so you using python instead. >> (Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to >> automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces). >> But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions >> on mailing list, you will probably discover that >> there is already work being done in that direction. >> And at last, if you feel that there is missing some key functionality >> which you want, and you expect that it is also >> could be useful to community, you can always implement it and share >> with people (instead of using Python ;). >> So, next who will come after you won't find himself in a desert with >> couple of oasises few hundred miles away. > > Oh, I've Googled and searched and read the mailing lists. I've had off-list > conversations with people who have used Alien/FFI about what I need. It is > presently beyond my current skill and knowledge and time to acquire said > knowledge. I am not saying it isn't doable. I am saying at the moment it > isn't anything I have the time to pursue. I already have in place a working > solution. It isn't as nice as Â I would like, or an all Pharo solution. But > it is working. > > The current working solution is simply version 1.0 of my application. When > it is up and running and I have further time I will explore other options. > > Ok, as far mentioning this before here I go. :) > > My messages > [snip] > As I stated, I am not a professional programmer. I have no computer science > background. I have no C/C++/C# skills. The more time I spend doing low level > stuff or learning how to do so, the less time I have to spend on what my app > is intended to do, the business logic. > But you still need someone to do it. > My goal is more along the lines of getting my business up and running and > hiring knowledgeable people like you to do the things that enable people > like me. > > I find Smalltalk enabling for the guy with an idea. Its the most enabling > and empowering tool I've found for my ideas. I would like to see it improve > in its enabling ability. > I get excited about executing my ideas. > > If I had no options but to learn Alien/FFI or ctypes, or C/C++/C#/F3, in > order to build my application. I would. But it would delay me considerably. > I have more ideas, than time. > So, find people who will help you. Apparently, if you decide to live with the status-quo and there is no any initiative from your side to improve the situation, then nothing will change. And then expect that next guy who will come here, will keep saying the same: yes i would love to use smalltalk, but i can't because it missing X, Y, Z.. so i will use Python instead. > I would like to see Pharo's story for interfacing external libraries to be > better than Pythons. It would be very enabling for those of us with less > skills, and less time for those who have the skills. > We're working on that. But i'd like to say that situation is not so different that in Python. Comparing to ctype , we have complete analog for it - FFI , Alien or NativeBoost > Thanks. > > Jimmie > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 6, 2011