May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Miguel CobÃ¡

El vie, 06-05-2011 a las 18:32 +0200, Stefan Marr escribiÃ³: > (And some more flame war here) > > > On 06 May 2011, at 17:11, Miguel CobÃ¡ wrote: > > >>>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > >>> > >>> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > >> Stef, if you haven't noticed: I don't care about Smalltalk, and I don't care about Pharo, or any other language out there in particular. I don't share your vision, I have other goals in life. > > > > So what are you doing here, the less the noise the best for everyone > > else. You don't contribute, you only criticize, and then you said you > > don't care, the we don't care about your "opinion". You can keep it for > > yourself. > > Well, I think my work on the RoarVM is some contribution, no? Perhaps, I would be more interested in Pharo if it would actually run nicely on the RoarVM, but I am stuck with a Squeak 3.x MVC image for my day to day work. And without anyone from the community approaching the work to make Pharo thread-safe that won't change. It is nice to change the world with Pharo, but the future is multi/manycore and Pharo does not support it. Ah, and the day has just 24h so don't expect anything from me beside the VM work, thats already enough to keep a whole team busy. > I found your post very contradicting and without internal consistency. You don't care about smalltalk but are creating a vm should run smalltalk (squeak or pharo) in multiple core. Don't get it. Or you care that you dedicate time to it or you don't care and don't know why you build a multicore vm for a system you don't care (maybe the money, the papers, the citations, don't know) > > > >> That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. > That is BS. > How often do you see your colleagues going to the library, or the shelf next door to grab a book while they are programming? > It has been 10 years ago that they stopped doing so. That is the reason that O'Reilly books is broken and stop printing books 5 year ago right. Also this other publisher, I think they use to call themselves the pragmatic progammer, what a bunch of loser, trying to publish new books in this days that google has everything that is to know. Wait, no, they exists and publish books, maybe is for having something to do with their free time. > > Today, they google. Well, at least if they use another language than Smalltalk. > And I don't think there is something inherently wrong with that. > Yes but isn't the only way to get knowledge. Maybe assembler should be lectured no more, because we have high level programing languages and nobody needs that old tech anymore! You said: >> That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. and then: > I think, Stef's efforts of writing books should be supported, inconsistent! -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by laurent laffont

> > >> > Indeed, one thing FFI / Alien / NB don't have is a documentation as nice >> > as http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html >> > in http://book.pharo-project.org/ >> > FFI / Alien / NB may be powerful, it seems I've never managed to do what >> I >> > want, even with all mailing lists support (search mails on yaz / z3950 >> or >> > id3taglib). In Python it works on OSX out of the box (I've just tried :) >> > >> >> Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries >> you mention, >> or you did it by yourself? >> > > Have just used ctypes: > > >>> import ctypes > >>> import ctypes.util > >>> ctypes.util.find_library("yaz") > '/usr/local/lib/libyaz.dylib' > >>> yaz = ctypes.cdll.LoadLibrary("libyaz.dylib") > >>> con = yaz.ZOOM_connection_new("z3950.loc.gov", 7090); > Indeed, I think the great thing is that I could write this in 5 mn just looking at the doc, haven't used python for years. In Pharo, well, ......... Laurent. > > Laurent > > >> >> Here a first hit from google search: >> >> http://lists.indexdata.dk/pipermail/yazlist/2002-May/000269.html >> >> <quote> >> I wrote these files for more than 2 years ago to play with SWIG and PERL, >> they >> are far from being used, but I have just done a fast perl test and the >> results >> were just fine. >> >> zclient.c >> zclient.h >> zclinet.i swig interface file >> >> The zclient_wrap.c will be created as >> >> > swig -python zclient.i >> >> which should be compiled and linked with the rest >> </quote> >> >> So? Do you think it was easy in first place to a guy who did it from >> scratch? >> Now you can easily use it (and its just works out of the box). But it >> is because someone did it before you! >> >> And if you gonna repeat same from scratch, then you will have to learn: >> - C >> - SWIG >> - Python >> >> so, do you still think that it easier to do that in Python than in >> Smalltalk? >> >> > But when I was working with Python and Ruby several years ago things was >> > easy (for my needs), I think because of documentation. >> > Laurent >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> >> >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] PetitParser puzzle

by Norbert Hartl

Am 06.05.2011 um 13:59 schrieb Damien Pollet: > I have a unit test for a parser of mine: > > testLine > self fail: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineBlank. "passes" > self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #lineNonBlank. "passes" > self parse: 'Just a line.' rule: #line. "end of input > expected at 0" > > Now the fun part: > > line > ^ lineBlank / lineNonBlank > try line ^ lineNonBlank / lineBlank Norbert > For reference, here are the rest of the involved rules: > > blank > ^ #blank asParser > > lineBlank > ^ blank star > > lineNonBlank > ^ blank star , blank not , lineEnd negate plus > > lineEnd > ^ (Character lf asParser) > / (Character cr asParser , Character lf asParser optional) > > Insights ? > > -- > Damien Pollet > type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] PBE in HTML [was: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry]

by laurent laffont

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:30 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>wrote: > I installed pdf to html but I could not make it run :( htlatex seems OK, we can start with this. Need to supply a nice CSS though. I will try to find some time to play with (help always welcome :) Laurent. > On May 6, 2011, at 2:05 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:56 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html. > > > > > > On OSX with MacTex-2010 installed, I've tried > > > > git clone --depth 1 > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-english.git > > cd PharoByExample-english/ > > htlatex PBE1.tex "html,2" > > > > Then open PBE1.html , one page per chapter. > > > > See http://www.tug.org/applications/tex4ht/mn-commands.html > > > > Laurent. > > > > > > > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > I've used latex2html several years ago. > > > > > > +1 for html > > > > > > Laurent. > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation > for any part of the system? > > > >>>> Or a bug fix? > > > >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We > welcome comments/examples help. > > > >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > > > >> > > > >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > > > >> > > > >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but > I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start > with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until > now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great > website? > > > >> > > > >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that > a documentation. > > > >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html > > > >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > > > >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. > > > > > > > > StÃ©phane, > > > > > > > > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action > does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation. > > > > > > > > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist > (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki > site (although these have their place as well). > > > > > > > > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what > current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't > understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly > large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page. > > > > > > > > This is also related to popularity of course. > > > > > > > > Sven > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by laurent laffont

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 6 May 2011 07:11, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> On 6 May 2011 01:03, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> > > >> > On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> > > >> > On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > [Big Snip] > >> > > >> > Well said. > >> > Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with > >> > foreign libraries. > >> > Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you > >> > need to have knowledge > >> > in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you > >> > take any other pair of languages and try to > >> > connect them. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved > >> > in > >> > using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of > >> > FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers. > >> > > >> > >> So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :) > >> > >> > As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but > >> > that > >> > it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. > I > >> > know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use > >> > non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am > >> > very > >> > preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all > >> > accounts. > >> > I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it > >> > introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like > tools > >> > that > >> > allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing. > >> > > >> > However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for > such > >> > capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive. > >> > > >> > http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html > >> > > >> > """ > >> > ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C > >> > compatible > >> > data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. > It > >> > can > >> > be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python. > >> > > >> > 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries > >> > > >> > ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for > >> > loading dynamic link libraries. > >> > > >> > You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. > >> > cdll > >> > loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl > calling > >> > convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall > >> > calling > >> > convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and > assumes > >> > the > >> > functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used > to > >> > automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call > >> > fails. > >> > > >> > Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS > standard > >> > C > >> > library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl > calling > >> > convention: > >> > > >> >>>> from ctypes import * > >> >>>> print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS > >> > <WinDLL 'kernel32', handle ... at ...> > >> >>>> print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS > >> > <CDLL 'msvcrt', handle ... at ...> > >> >>>> libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS > >> >>> > >> > > >> > >> So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo? > >> Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python? > >> > >> > >> > """ > >> > > >> > It has examples for windows and linux. > >> > > >> > >> I feel that you are seriously under-informed. > >> Just try googling for: > >> > >> Squeak + FFI > >> Alien > >> > >> NativeBoost > >> > >> and just check what you can do using it: > >> > >> http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/ > >> > >> also check mail archives. > >> > >> Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look > >> for what you need by yourself? > >> Are google.com banned by your ISP? > >> > >> For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information > >> (while being available openly) didn't catch your > >> attention , so you using python instead. > >> (Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to > >> automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces). > >> But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions > >> on mailing list, you will probably discover that > >> there is already work being done in that direction. > > > > > > Indeed, one thing FFI / Alien / NB don't have is a documentation as nice > > as http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html > > in http://book.pharo-project.org/ > > FFI / Alien / NB may be powerful, it seems I've never managed to do what > I > > want, even with all mailing lists support (search mails on yaz / z3950 or > > id3taglib). In Python it works on OSX out of the box (I've just tried :) > > > > Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries > you mention, > or you did it by yourself? > Have just used ctypes: >>> import ctypes >>> import ctypes.util >>> ctypes.util.find_library("yaz") '/usr/local/lib/libyaz.dylib' >>> yaz = ctypes.cdll.LoadLibrary("libyaz.dylib") >>> con = yaz.ZOOM_connection_new("z3950.loc.gov", 7090); Laurent > > Here a first hit from google search: > > http://lists.indexdata.dk/pipermail/yazlist/2002-May/000269.html > > <quote> > I wrote these files for more than 2 years ago to play with SWIG and PERL, > they > are far from being used, but I have just done a fast perl test and the > results > were just fine. > > zclient.c > zclient.h > zclinet.i swig interface file > > The zclient_wrap.c will be created as > > > swig -python zclient.i > > which should be compiled and linked with the rest > </quote> > > So? Do you think it was easy in first place to a guy who did it from > scratch? > Now you can easily use it (and its just works out of the box). But it > is because someone did it before you! > > And if you gonna repeat same from scratch, then you will have to learn: > - C > - SWIG > - Python > > so, do you still think that it easier to do that in Python than in > Smalltalk? > > > But when I was working with Python and Ruby several years ago things was > > easy (for my needs), I think because of documentation. > > Laurent > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Stefan Marr

(And some more flame war here) On 06 May 2011, at 17:11, Miguel CobÃ¡ wrote: >>>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) >>> >>> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? >> Stef, if you haven't noticed: I don't care about Smalltalk, and I don't care about Pharo, or any other language out there in particular. I don't share your vision, I have other goals in life. > > So what are you doing here, the less the noise the best for everyone > else. You don't contribute, you only criticize, and then you said you > don't care, the we don't care about your "opinion". You can keep it for > yourself. Well, I think my work on the RoarVM is some contribution, no? Perhaps, I would be more interested in Pharo if it would actually run nicely on the RoarVM, but I am stuck with a Squeak 3.x MVC image for my day to day work. And without anyone from the community approaching the work to make Pharo thread-safe that won't change. It is nice to change the world with Pharo, but the future is multi/manycore and Pharo does not support it. Ah, and the day has just 24h so don't expect anything from me beside the VM work, thats already enough to keep a whole team busy. >> That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. >> You need a good entry level book, that is all it takes. >> The rest is great online documentation. > > Umm, or you are very young or completely lost your mind. Internet as we > know today has a decade at most. The documentation you as happy use now > didn't existe 20 years ago. But, doesn't a lot of code was written more > than 20 years ago. How is that possible just with fucking books and > without google. > > That is BS. How often do you see your colleagues going to the library, or the shelf next door to grab a book while they are programming? It has been 10 years ago that they stopped doing so. Today, they google. Well, at least if they use another language than Smalltalk. And I don't think there is something inherently wrong with that. > to read > a book in a more directed way that a simple API list and no way to see > how is used. All I say is that a classical book is not the state of the art in the regard. Well written API documentation is. And well written API documentation includes examples. And, yes, Smalltalk people know about that. I think, books are for introduction, but not to actually get work done. I need the knowledge directly at my finger tips. > On the other hands, the > Pharo by example and seaside pier books or the HPI Seaside books are > doing more for smalltalk than you want to accept. Yes, they introduce people to Smalltalk. But this particular discussion started after someone mentioned that he/she used python since it was easier to bridge between Pharo and Python than it was to go from Pharo to the C code directly. That person knows Smalltalk, and is productive with it. Except for the things where he/she did not immediately found good documentation. That is the scenario I am talking about. And if I remember correctly there is even an article/book in the collection of free books on Stef's webpage that tells you how to implement primitives which could have done the job. But the problem here, he/she was just not able to find it. That's the point, and that is the problem I try to emphasize. It is certainly good to attract new people to Smalltalk, but how does that help if you can't make the ones who already know it to stay with it? With books? I think, Stef's efforts of writing books should be supported, but the content (if it is an open book) needs to be findable on Google and Bing... And that is not everything, the text has actually be in a form that it is easily accessible on the web. Which means, links, and repetition(for some degree of redundancy). (That is also what good API documentation does) Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

May 6, 2011

[Pharo-project] What is Configuration? (was: Re: [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated)

by Chris Muller

> Chris. Metacello scripts are object specs and to me this is just great because they are objects > and with objects we can do a lot. Checking, transforming...... So of course hacking a little script is fast and > Metacello requires some care but I can tell you that for us this is **hyper** important (and not just > as some person may think because we like complex stuff - because this is plain wrong) > because Metacello are first class ***objects*** scripts. I am an objectician almost to a fault. I tend to want to solve every problem with a object model. Everyone knows I love objects. But I also view software as a _means_ not an end. A means to do something in the real world that I want done. In this case, I simply want to do Configuration. Configuration is not just about loading packages; it's about _configuring_ a system. It's about taking a VM + Legacy-Image and configuring it to do something practical in the real-world. If "Legacy-Image" is our dream super-stripped 1MB Spoon type of image; an image with just a Compiler and no MC or any tools, and I want to configure it for an embedded system, then this is where the Smalltalk-rubber hits the road: The person developing this type system will be configuring THAT image with a config-file, not an object-model. VM + Legacy-Image + config-file (config-file is just a .st, .sar, or anything else that can be interpreted by the Legacy-Image). Using an object-model in this case is counterproductive because just to be able to _interpret_ that (Metacello) object model, you have to load a gazillion packages into the image which is targeted to be embedded, just to "do" the configuring. This is why I think a "catalog of configuration files" is appropriate; so that the existence of this type of system can be documented alongside the existence of all other kinds of systems including Metacello-managed ones. Whether someone wants to bring Metacello into their life to do package management is their personal choice. But that is separate from having their application listed in The Catalog of ALL available Squeak (and, I hope, Pharo) titles in one place, regardless of whether they use Metacello or any other specific technology. - Chris

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

ok you win a bit ;) On May 6, 2011, at 3:49 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 6 May 2011 15:42, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> 2011/5/6 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> >>> >>> But just don't fall into delusion, that you can start using external >>> library (either written in C or C# or in Java), >>> without knowing at all the foreign language in which library are >>> written, and just after few mouse clicks in Pharo image. >>> >> >> Hello, >> >> In last week I implement java binding with some C library (it containes >> callbacks). Before I never doing this kind of work in java. >> And It will not simple task. I use JNA - analogous FFI libraries in >> smalltalk. >> So I done it. And It work from my tests. But when I deploy It to apatch >> server as servlet it cant work. Java craches in arbitrarily places of dll >> calling.Solutions will be simplest C dll wrapper which provides two >> functions without callbacks. >> Similar problems will be when we doing java connect to com-object. Solutions >> will be C# socket server :)) >> >> So Java connection to foreign world is not easy. Although there is good >> docs. >> >> > > That's what i trying to say. > Someone have to get his hands dirty and do it. Fail, fix & repeat > until its done. > There is no magic. And it always will be hard and error prone. > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 17:11, Miguel CobÃ¡ <miguel.coba(a)gmail.com> wrote: > El vie, 06-05-2011 a las 12:57 +0200, Stefan Marr escribiÃ³: >> Sorry for the flam below. I didn't have the time and energy to rewrite it. >> >> >> >>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? >> >>> Or a bug fix? >> >>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. >> No, I report things on the mailing list, and I complain here and there about the narrow-mindedness of Smalltalk-evangelists. >> And when it comes to documentation, I document that RoarVM you might have heard of. If that is not interesting for you, sorry, we just don't share the same interests. >> >> >> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) >> > >> > No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? >> Stef, if you haven't noticed: I don't care about Smalltalk, and I don't care about Pharo, or any other language out there in particular. I don't share your vision, I have other goals in life. >> > > So what are you doing here, the less the noise the best for everyone > else. You don't contribute, you only criticize, and then you said you > don't care, the we don't care about your "opinion". You can keep it for > yourself. > > > >> The only thing I do here is to point out the obvious (at least from my narrow-minded perspective). >> >> >> > If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. >> > Now we can take the book contents and generate html >> > We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. >> > People are free to join and write one or two chapters. >> >> That's what I mean. From my perspective, books about programming languages are a wast of effort. >> You need a good entry level book, that is all it takes. >> The rest is great online documentation. >> > > Umm, or you are very young or completely lost your mind. Internet as we > know today has a decade at most. The documentation you as happy use now > didn't existe 20 years ago. But, doesn't a lot of code was written more > than Â 20 years ago. How is that possible just with fucking books and > without google. > > That is BS. > >> Unfortunately, Smalltalkers don't know anything outside the image... >> >> I don't know how other people work, but I never look into books when I program. They just don't work. >> They are slow, outdated and hard to search in. >> >> Honestly, I don't understand why books are a priority for you when you want to develop a community. >> You got a good entry level book, so what is the motivation to write another one? > > > Because not everyone is so "smart" as you and we sometimes need to read > a book in a more directed way that a simple API list and no way to see > how is used. Also, check the Squeak wiki. Almost useless and Â nobody > that is putting new content to it these days. On the other hands, the > Pharo by example and seaside pier books or the HPI Seaside books are > doing more for smalltalk than you want to accept. > About wiki: its just points to the fact that documentation is worth something if its properly organized. Wiki, if not maintained properly, will become a garbage dump, as anything else. Books, in this regard is better, because they have to be organized well, and focused towards educating people about certain subject, otherwise there is no point to call it 'book'. And yeah.. in present digital era the meaning of term 'book' is different. It is no longer relevant in what form it exists: digital or paper.. But being able to print it on paper media is a bonus, because people can choose what suits them best. I must admit, that the last book i read about programming was around in early 90's.. since then i am mostly reading docs & web. But for getting started, it is always much easier to follow tutorials (and good book is a collection of tutorials in fact) with extensive explanation & examples how things working, than groking through API and trying to understand how to use it in order to meet your needs. > -- > Miguel CobÃ¡ > http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] PBE in HTML [was: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry]

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I installed pdf to html but I could not make it run :( On May 6, 2011, at 2:05 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:56 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html. > > > On OSX with MacTex-2010 installed, I've tried > > git clone --depth 1 https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoByExample-english.git > cd PharoByExample-english/ > htlatex PBE1.tex "html,2" > > Then open PBE1.html , one page per chapter. > > See http://www.tug.org/applications/tex4ht/mn-commands.html > > Laurent. > > > > > Stef > > > > > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. > > Any ideas? > > > > I've used latex2html several years ago. > > > > +1 for html > > > > Laurent. > > > > > > > > >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system? > > >>>> Or a bug fix? > > >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help. > > >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :) > > >> > > >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help? > > >> > > >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website? > > >> > > >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation. > > >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html > > >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one. > > >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters. > > > > > > StÃ©phane, > > > > > > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation. > > > > > > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki site (although these have their place as well). > > > > > > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page. > > > > > > This is also related to popularity of course. > > > > > > Sven > > > > > > > > >

May 6, 2011