May 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Douglas Brebner

On 06/05/2011 22:23, Stefan Marr wrote: > (and here we go again...) > > > On 06 May 2011, at 18:55, Miguel CobÃ¡ wrote: > >> El vie, 06-05-2011 a las 18:32 +0200, Stefan Marr escribiÃ³: >>> Well, I think my work on the RoarVM is some contribution, no? Perhaps, I would be more interested in Pharo if it would actually run nicely on the RoarVM, but I am stuck with a Squeak 3.x MVC image for my day to day work. And without anyone from the community approaching the work to make Pharo thread-safe that won't change. It is nice to change the world with Pharo, but the future is multi/manycore and Pharo does not support it. Ah, and the day has just 24h so don't expect anything from me beside the VM work, thats already enough to keep a whole team busy. >>> >> I found your post very contradicting and without internal consistency. >> You don't care about smalltalk but are creating a vm should run >> smalltalk (squeak or pharo) in multiple core. Don't get it. Or you care >> that you dedicate time to it or you don't care and don't know why you >> build a multicore vm for a system you don't care (maybe the money, the >> papers, the citations, don't know) > I am interested in VMs, so why do I need to care about the language on top? Actually, I do research in how to support all kind of different languages on top of the same VM, because there is not a single language that is the ultimate answer to all problems. That is why I do not care about any particular language. > Just look at the JVM. How much of its technology was developed in the pure Java context? Not a lot. Most was actually conceived for Smalltalk. > As long as the languages have some commonalities and are not based on graph-reduction like Haskell, then they usually don't require a completely new designed VM, but a nice set of common abstractions. So why, as a researcher, should I care about Smalltalk? Smalltalk is not the final answer, and will never be. Neither is any other single language. Smalltalk the language no. Smalltalk the infinitely malleable environment? That's another question :)

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Want ugly FFI interface [was: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry]

by laurent laffont

> > > >> > Have just used ctypes: > >> >>>> import ctypes > >> >>>> import ctypes.util > >> >>>> ctypes.util.find_library("yaz") > >> > '/usr/local/lib/libyaz.dylib' > >> >>>> yaz = ctypes.cdll.LoadLibrary("libyaz.dylib") > >> >>>> con = yaz.ZOOM_connection_new("z3950.loc.gov", 7090); > >> > >> oh cool.. give me a 5 minutes to load external library, look up the > >> random symbol exported by it > >> and make a call to it with random number of arguments, and expect it > >> won't crash. > >> > >> Works outta box! Cool. > >> > >> Now serious. How about spending time writing a bindings for that > library? > >> Where you have properly organized classes/interfaces, error handling > >> and other stuff. > >> No takers? > >> > >> Seriously, if you want such kind of shitty interface, which allows you > >> to call arbitrary function with arbitrary arguments > >> without any argument type checking, i can write it for you. > > > > > > Do it, please do it. Seriously. Thanks > > Laurent. > > Oh. Okay. I will put that in my years-long todo list. Remind me time to > time :) > This is just a matter of priority. I vote for highest :) Laurent > > > > >> > >> > Laurent > >> > >> -- > >> Best regards, > >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > >

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Michael Haupt

Hi Igor, Am 07.05.2011 um 02:06 schrieb Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > Heh.. then we're 99% done. Except that this last 1% is still could > take years to complete :) you serious? Making a Smalltalk image thread-safe is that hard? > I can tell you more: there is no business cases for VM(s) which can do > manycore :) > At least, to my perception, there is not much pressure from people > (even on mainstream languages) to leverage this technology. What market are you talking about? There are lots and lots of customers of certain big database/appliance vendors that would loudly protest had the stuff they bought no inherent support for parallel execution. > I thought it is very close to come into our houses, but no.. it stuck > somewhere on marketplace, buying a better clothes. And now it's arrived in tablets already. It's your problem if you leave your iPad lying around *outside* your house. ;-) > Implementing VM which enabling massive parallelism is just a > beginning. Then obviously you need do to a lot at language side > to leverage that, in order to really say "yes, our system(s) are aware > of multicore and can scale almost linearly in future". And do not forget the most important thing: people must be educated to program for parallelism. The computing power is there to be exploited, but programmers need to know how to exploit it. You can't rely on the compiler or VM alone. > Now, given that squeak's code a hugely non-thread-safe, imagine how > many iterations in redesign it would take to make it thread-safe > first, and then make it run in parallel with rest of the stuff. Is it really *that* hard or is this just FUD? > Best, Michael

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Instantiations forum moved to forum.world.st!

by Geert Claes

Big thanks to John O'Keefe from Instantiation! -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Instantiations-forum-moved-to-forum-world-st-tp350290… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Tutorial on Announcements

by DougEdmunds

http://forum.world.st/file/n3504921/wiki_GUI.png Snapshot of the GUI created in the tutorial. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Tutorial-on-Announcements-tp3485040p3504921.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Em 06/05/2011 06:34, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: > Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex. >From LaTeX to HTML obviously the path is to use LaTeX2HTML http://www.latex2html.org/ or if your LaTeX installation supports it htlatex to process the LaTeX sources into HTML pages. An older but still useful source of information is http://mirror.softwarelivre.ufsc.br/pub/ctan/info/webguide/webguide.html#QQ… > Any ideas? Create some classes in Pharo to do the job?

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Stefan Marr

On 07 May 2011, at 02:06, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 6 May 2011 23:45, Stefan Marr <pharo(a)stefan-marr.de> wrote: >> There is nothing fundamental in the RoarVM that is changing the language semantics of Smalltalk. >> >> It is just that for: `[do something] fork` you will have to assume that it is executed in parallel to other code. >> > only that? > Heh.. then we're 99% done. Except that this last 1% is still could > take years to complete :) But why? We show with the Squeak 3.x MVC image that it is perfectly possible. (the change set is absolutely minimal, and the only thing we needed to fix was some Delay related issues) And, on top of that it is perfectly possible, there is a smooth transition path. You can tell all your Process objects to just run on the main core in the beginning, and then just use the other cores for code you wrote specifically. Thus, there is a nice step-wise path. And I think I outlined that in my 20min presentation at the school after Stef asked. BTW: are those videos somewhere accessible? >From my perspective all it takes is someone who actually cares, and has the time to experiment a bit with parallel programming. The kernel, and the tools can be migrated step by step. However, that is just on top of the current RoarVM, which is certainly not as attractive as a CogVM with real thread support. > I can tell you more: there is no business cases for VM(s) which can do > manycore :) No manycore perhaps, but luckily the low-power end is pushing to multicore solutions. So, your next iPhone and Android app will need to leverage at least two cores for optimal performance, and even quad-core phones are just around the corner. > Implementing VM which enabling massive parallelism is just a > beginning. Then obviously you need do to a lot at language side > to leverage that, in order to really say "yes, our system(s) are aware > of multicore and can scale almost linearly in future". No, don't think so. If people got deadlines and a need, they will do it with the tools at hand. And what I am doing here is absolutely not rocket science. Actually it is pretty hard to sell the engineering we do as science at all. Because the multicore VM problem has been solved a decade ago. They just forgot to tell us how... Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 19:47, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 6 May 2011 18:45, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Is it works because someone already provided a bindings for libraries >> >> you mention, >> >> or you did it by yourself? >> > >> > Have just used ctypes: >> >>>> import ctypes >> >>>> import ctypes.util >> >>>> ctypes.util.find_library("yaz") >> > '/usr/local/lib/libyaz.dylib' >> >>>> yaz = ctypes.cdll.LoadLibrary("libyaz.dylib") >> >>>> con = yaz.ZOOM_connection_new("z3950.loc.gov", 7090); >> >> oh cool.. give me a 5 minutes to load external library, look up the >> random symbol exported by it >> and make a call to it with random number of arguments, and expect it >> won't crash. >> >> Works outta box! Cool. >> >> Now serious. How about spending time writing a bindings for that library? >> Where you have properly organized classes/interfaces, error handling >> and other stuff. >> No takers? >> >> Seriously, if you want such kind of shitty interface, which allows you >> to call arbitrary function with arbitrary arguments >> without any argument type checking, i can write it for you. > > > Do it, please do it. Seriously. Thanks > Laurent. Oh. Okay. I will put that in my years-long todo list. Remind me time to time :) > >> >> > Laurent >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 May 2011 23:45, Stefan Marr <pharo(a)stefan-marr.de> wrote: > > On 06 May 2011, at 19:08, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> I think the main reason why RoarVM does not exists for Pharo is >> because there was no discussion and planning beforehead, how we could >> cooperate. >> Where the discussion, how we could introduce new execution models, and >> gradually (means step by step) migrate to new VM? > > Igor, I remember some discussion from the Smalltalk school, two important points: > > Â 1. it is not a new execution model, but you do not have your old scheduling guarantees anymore. > Â 2. "all it takes" is to make the important libraries thread-safe > > There is nothing fundamental in the RoarVM that is changing the language semantics of Smalltalk. > > It is just that for: `[do something] fork` you will have to assume that it is executed in parallel to other code. > only that? Heh.. then we're 99% done. Except that this last 1% is still could take years to complete :) > >> Take into account there there is virtually no knowledge outside of >> your team, what has to be changed in order to make Pharo run on >> RoarVM. >> So what did you expected? That people drop everything which already >> works well for them and hastily migrate to new platform? > No, of course not. I never expected anyone to jump onto a research platform, and it is also not really about > adopting our C++ code, but about trying to integrate the ideas into the standard VM with Cog. > > Talking with Eliot basically resulted in the insight that there is no major problem that would prevent the adoption of parallel execution in the CogVM. They only thing we became aware of that might be interesting are the PICs. And there he had a nice paper reference with a perfectly good solution... > >> How about CogVM? Should we stop developing it? Or we should start >> supporting both? And can we do that without too much pain? Give us the >> idea. > It is all about adopting the ideas, and I could collaboration on that, but I can't do that work. > The only problem I see is that there does not seem to be a business case for a CogVM with parallel Smalltalk Process execution. > I can tell you more: there is no business cases for VM(s) which can do manycore :) At least, to my perception, there is not much pressure from people (even on mainstream languages) to leverage this technology. I thought it is very close to come into our houses, but no.. it stuck somewhere on marketplace, buying a better clothes. Implementing VM which enabling massive parallelism is just a beginning. Then obviously you need do to a lot at language side to leverage that, in order to really say "yes, our system(s) are aware of multicore and can scale almost linearly in future". Now, given that squeak's code a hugely non-thread-safe, imagine how many iterations in redesign it would take to make it thread-safe first, and then make it run in parallel with rest of the stuff. > >> But then i wouldn't come >> to pharo list to say >> that i don't give a shit about pharo. > Igor, the fact that the community did not show active interest in the RoarVM is much older than my bold statement. > And, please understand my statement in the context of me not giving a damn about any particular language. > Seriously, I can stand those 'ah but my language is so much nicer' discussions. And this here is just a variation of it. > Languages are tools, and they are useful as long as they fit the problem. > The problem is that VM dictates , what problems you can solve with your language and what not. Squeak/Pharo is an excellent example of this. >> I appreciate the engineering effort what you have did. But its a top >> of the iceberg. Migrating existing system to another platform is very >> complex task, > > Actually, for the RoarVM it is not. It is a lot of work, but it is not complex. It is tedious, but it can be done in small well defined steps. Perfect small projects for interested students. I already convinced two guys to apply for the Google Summer of Code. But well, that never happened... > > So, I do what I can, and actually more. > But the community only responds to me when I say that I hate Smalltalk. > Strange, isn't it? > Why? Its natural. Meet a fans of <FOO> and say that <FOO> suck. What reaction you will get? Concerning why people not reacting to other things - i think that being able to run on tilera chips is too far perspective for those who just want to host their web-page which served by seaside, or generate some data analyzis or other boring domestic business modelling. Apparently, if you want your fruits to be picked up, they have to hang very low. Somewhere at the level of stomach. Not higher. And rocket science you doing , for most of people is at the level of stratosphere :) Once, for Squeak VM, i made an implementation to move scheduling away from VM into language. It was fully working, and you were free to change scheduling logic without touching VM anymore. What you think how many people reacted to that? How many of them would like to pursue this further? > Best regards > Stefan > > > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: Â +32 2 629 3525 > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

May 7, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Instantiations forum moved to forum.world.st!

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

Agree, great work Geert. 2011/5/6 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com>: > Thanks Geert. Your efforts in world.st are incredible valuable for the > Smalltalk community! > > cheers > > mariano > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> I am happy to announce that Instantions' forum has joined all the other >> forums on Â http://forum.world.st forum.world.st Â and is now available at >> http://forum.world.st/Instantiations-f3404935.html >> forum.world.st/Instantiations-f3404935.html >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Instantiations-forum-moved-to-forum-world-st-tp350290… >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > -- ================================================= GermÃ¡n S. ArduinoÂ <gsa @ arsol.net>Â Â Twitter: garduino Arduino Software & Web HostingÂ Â http://www.arduinosoftware.com PasswordsProÂ http://www.passwordspro.com =================================================

May 6, 2011