April 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] Backward compatibility [WAS] Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] PharoDev-1.3-13173

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Ted F.A. van Gaalen <tedvga(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Hi Marcus > As I wrote, I am thinking from the perspective > of an application developer, a typical pharo-user ? > imagine that I/we have hundreds of > apps written, will they run unchanged > say 5 years from now? > Probably not. We would like to improve the system and clean it. Unfortunately, sometimes there is no other way than loosing backward compatibility. What do you prefer? Pharo choose a better system. If you/companies do not even collaborate with updating your code (don't say even fixing bugs or submitting code) ...then don't expect anything from Pharo. Pharo is open-source, free and it is build in the free time. And I think Pharo is not the only one....out there most of the languages change a lot between versions, Python, blah. Cheers Mariano > > Regards > Ted > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> > wrote: > > > > On Apr 27, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Ted F.A. van Gaalen wrote: > > > >> Good morning Mariano > >> > >> This is something I wrote to Adrian Lienhard, > >> when an image did not run, straight out of the box > >> so to speak, because of VM differences > >> Some thoughts about reliability, and, very important > >> IMHO, upward compatibility. > >> > >> Thanks & Regards > >> Ted > >> > >>>>> > >> ? > >> I did expect that, nota bene working with > >> the Seaside supplied one-click image and > >> the virtual machine supplied with it, > >> provided on the Seaside.st site itself, > >> that everything is (and remains) > >> 100% upward compatible, > >> no matter what VM is or will be used in the future. > > > > This is impossible and, in the end, not a good idea. > > > > We can not be compatible forever, was this would mean > > that we can not improve anything. > > > > e.g. imagine someone would fix the VM to be better. > > (e.g. a modern object format). > > > > Do you really request to then *not* do this change because > > this VM could not run old images? (and new images would > > not run on old VMs?). > > > > Do you want to have a Future or be compatible to the Past? > > > > Marcus > > > > > > -- > > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > > > > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

April 27, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-users] [ANN] PharoDev-1.3-13173

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Ted F.A. van Gaalen <tedvga(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Good morning Mariano > > This is something I wrote to Adrian Lienhard, > when an image did not run, straight out of the box > so to speak, because of VM differences > Some thoughts about reliability, and, very important > IMHO, upward compatibility. > > Good morning > Thanks & Regards > Ted > > >>> > ? > I did expect that, nota bene working with > the Seaside supplied one-click image and > the virtual machine supplied with it, > provided on the Seaside.st site itself, > that everything is (and remains) > 100% upward compatible, > no matter what VM is or will be used in the future. > > Unfortunatly that's now of the the goals of Pharo. You have two real/practical ways: 1) don't make progress, stay in the museum (like stef says), and live happy with that. 2) Improve, make progress, and unfortunatly, make some incompatibility to the past. Pharo choose 2). Please, for further discussion, use another thread with a clear subject, not this one. > So, that application builders are assured that > the things they create will run unchanged > for even years to come. In an industrial > environment, this is vital. > Not necessary. Several mainstream languages changes a lot among different versions and people just update their code. > > For example: on IBM mainframes. many > Cobol or PL/1 programs/modules made more than > 30 years ago run unchanged and without recompilation/linking. > This is actually an industrial requirement, without it e.g. > the complete IT environment of banks etc. would collapse. > Even your bank account very probably relies on modules > programmed way back in the seventies.. > ( i won't mention the chaos with years of legacy code here, > but this could also occur years later with Smalltalk apps) > > but back to image compatibility > As a workaround, wouldn't it be a good idea: > - if some shell script on the Seaside hosting site somehow scans/checks > the image and start it with an appropriate VM either COG or another? > or: > provide a standard unchanged clean Seaside image in the file directory > as default, so the only thing one has to do is to load Monticello > package(s) into it? > yes, maybe. Ask seaside people :) Pharo images can be used iwth both VMs > > This is written from the somewhat traditional, industrial > and pragmatic perspective of a typical application developer, > who is not really involved in the more underlying system "details" :o) > > It would be almost a night mare in a large production environment > if e.g. classes are removed where applications rely on. > It would mean and unnecessary rewriting of a lot of code. > > That's the problem. It is not "unnecessary". In fact, it IS necessary if you want to make progress, clean, improve, etc. > Please observe: No pun or harsh negative criticism intended here, > I do really appreciate what is currently > going on with Smalltalk! > > No problem, any feedback is welcome :) we can always discuss. > I''ll copy this to Pharo-users, > currently seen that Mariano is touching a bit similar things. > > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Thanks, Mariano! > > > > We will move the latest Moose development build to this Pharo version > next week. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > On 27 Apr 2011, at 10:21, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > >> Hi. IMPORTANT: This is not the final 1.3 release, it just one simple > snapshot and one point. We all want a rock-solid Pharo 1.3 release, but that > doesn't happens automagically. We all need to start using and testing the > image before they are release. It is for the better of all of us. The more > we test the more stable will be the release. So...we need your help. What > you can do? > >> > >> 1) test test test test test. Use it. Take this image and use it for your > regular work. > >> 2) report bugs: http://www.pharo-project.org/community/issue-tracking > >> 3) propose fixes: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/HowToContribute > >> 4) Fix errors/failures tests > >> 5) Load your OWN packages and projects now. Don't wait until Pharo1.3 is > released and then ask "uuhh what happened to XXX? you removed? ohhh but I > use it". > >> 6) Do you maintain Metacello configurations? ok, if you test your > project and works correctly in Pharo 1.3, please update (or create if you > don't yet have it) the #stable, > >> 7) Do you maintain packages included in Pharo? please check we are > using the correct versions > >> 8) I would like to see people testing AidaWeb, Magma, Fuel, Moose, > DBXTalk, Seaside and all its friends, Zinc, FileSystem, etc, etc, etc. > >> > >> Pharo-1.3-13173 should work with Interpreter VM and with Cog. For Cog I > recommend to download the last one from Eliot's page: > http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ > >> > >> Two little warnings: > >> - The Transcript is read only....and it will probably be roll backed to > the previous one > >> - if text editing looks weird....it is Lukas's fault ;) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTMX1f8Lu5w > >> > >> Ok, the image is here: > https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/28517/Pharo-1.3-13173.zip > >> > >> And it was build by Hudson: > https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/view/Pharo/job/Pharo%201.3/111/ > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> -- > >> Mariano > >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >> > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > > "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." > > > > > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

April 27, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-users] [ANN] PharoDev-1.3-13173

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks, Mariano! > > We will move the latest Moose development build to this Pharo version next > week. > > Thanks Doru, Moose is always the best Pharo beta tester :) I don't know who do you expect to download Moose from Hudson, but be aware, as always that this image MIGHT be unstable, and that's exactly what you are trying to solve :) So...not only you, but everybody should now that. This is not perfect, it is just one milestone. > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 27 Apr 2011, at 10:21, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > Hi. IMPORTANT: This is not the final 1.3 release, it just one simple > snapshot and one point. We all want a rock-solid Pharo 1.3 release, but that > doesn't happens automagically. We all need to start using and testing the > image before they are release. It is for the better of all of us. The more > we test the more stable will be the release. So...we need your help. What > you can do? > > > > 1) test test test test test. Use it. Take this image and use it for your > regular work. > > 2) report bugs: http://www.pharo-project.org/community/issue-tracking > > 3) propose fixes: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/HowToContribute > > 4) Fix errors/failures tests > > 5) Load your OWN packages and projects now. Don't wait until Pharo1.3 is > released and then ask "uuhh what happened to XXX? you removed? ohhh but I > use it". > > 6) Do you maintain Metacello configurations? ok, if you test your > project and works correctly in Pharo 1.3, please update (or create if you > don't yet have it) the #stable, > > 7) Do you maintain packages included in Pharo? please check we are using > the correct versions > > 8) I would like to see people testing AidaWeb, Magma, Fuel, Moose, > DBXTalk, Seaside and all its friends, Zinc, FileSystem, etc, etc, etc. > > > > Pharo-1.3-13173 should work with Interpreter VM and with Cog. For Cog I > recommend to download the last one from Eliot's page: > http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ > > > > Two little warnings: > > - The Transcript is read only....and it will probably be roll backed to > the previous one > > - if text editing looks weird....it is Lukas's fault ;) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTMX1f8Lu5w > > > > Ok, the image is here: > https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/28517/Pharo-1.3-13173.zip > > > > And it was build by Hudson: > https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/view/Pharo/job/Pharo%201.3/111/ > > > > Best regards, > > > > -- > > Mariano > > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

April 27, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-users] [ANN] PharoDev-1.3-13173

by Marcus Denker

On Apr 27, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Ted F.A. van Gaalen wrote: > Good morning Mariano > > This is something I wrote to Adrian Lienhard, > when an image did not run, straight out of the box > so to speak, because of VM differences > Some thoughts about reliability, and, very important > IMHO, upward compatibility. > > Thanks & Regards > Ted > >>>> > ? > I did expect that, nota bene working with > the Seaside supplied one-click image and > the virtual machine supplied with it, > provided on the Seaside.st site itself, > that everything is (and remains) > 100% upward compatible, > no matter what VM is or will be used in the future. This is impossible and, in the end, not a good idea. We can not be compatible forever, was this would mean that we can not improve anything. e.g. imagine someone would fix the VM to be better. (e.g. a modern object format). Do you really request to then *not* do this change because this VM could not run old images? (and new images would not run on old VMs?). Do you want to have a Future or be compatible to the Past? Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

April 27, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] About testing that ensure works

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I see. Subtle. May be a solution not slowing everything but more limited is the way to go. >>>> >>>> i am puzzled. You wanna to be sure that ensure block are executed? >>>> It is. >>> >>> I want to write a test that shows and tests the withOrganizer:do: >>> semantics. >>> In particular that the ensure is executed and that the context set by the >>> withOrganizer: is only present >>> in the do: block. >>> >> In other words, another use case probably written more cleanly using the >> non-existing >> Announcer >> #suspend: subscriber while: aBlock >> > > What is potential implementation? > > Announcer >>suspend: subscriber while: aBlock > | subscriptions | > > subscriptions := OrderedCollection new. > > registry subscriptionsOf: subscriber do: [:each | > subscriptions add: each > ]. > registry removeSubscriber: subscriber. > > ^ aBlock ensure: [ subscriptions do: [:ea | registry add: ea ] ] > > > The problem is that its not doing exactly what is said: > - it suspends existing subscriptions instead of suspending subscriber. > > The difference between those are subtle but important: > a suspended subscriber should not receive any announcements during > block evaluation, > even if it may want to subscribe to new ones during given block evaluation. > And the code above not handling this case , as well as it doesn't > handling the case when subscriber may want > to occasionally unsubscribe from some announcements during block evaluation. > > So, for doing this correctly, a subscription registry should keep a > list of suspended subscribers somewhere, > and then in #deliver: > it should check if subscription's subscriber are not in that list, and > only then let it deliver an announcement. > > The problem is that delivery time will slowdown considerably, because > for every subscription you should check > if it's subscriber are not in 'suspended subscribers' list. > > > So, it is really depends on intent. Suspending a concrete subscription > will require adding 'suspended' flag to subscription state. > But suspending a concrete subscriber and to guarantee that it won't > receive any announcements (even if it will subscribe for > a new ones during suspension time), can't be solved by having > 'suspended' ivar on subscription. You have to manage suspended > subscribers list separately. > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >

April 27, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource

by Mariano Martinez Peck

I have the same problem yesterday :( Is good to see I am not the only one. On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)beta9.be>wrote: > I have trouble with SqueakSource. > > I can live with the fact that it goes down regulary, but now I seem to be > losing code, and I can't fix it. > > I am missing 3 versions: > > Name: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.145 > Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe > Time: 26 April 2011, 7:01:32 pm > UUID: f9f0831d-5ffa-4a5c-a8ec-b276c9babc35 > Ancestors: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.144 > > Name: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.144 > Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe > Time: 26 April 2011, 1:44:01 pm > UUID: 439b923a-997e-4f51-9b7d-90896f8dd97f > Ancestors: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.143 > > Name: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.143 > Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe > Time: 26 April 2011, 1:24:30 pm > UUID: 08a56e5b-3270-4231-9568-4e5beffb58ae > Ancestors: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.142 > > I manually tried to copy them from my local package-cache to SS using the > Copy button, > that seemed to have gone OK, but they still don't appear on SS. > > Anyone any idea ? > > Thx, > > Sven > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

April 27, 2011

[Pharo-project] SqueakSource

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

I have trouble with SqueakSource. I can live with the fact that it goes down regulary, but now I seem to be losing code, and I can't fix it. I am missing 3 versions: Name: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.145 Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe Time: 26 April 2011, 7:01:32 pm UUID: f9f0831d-5ffa-4a5c-a8ec-b276c9babc35 Ancestors: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.144 Name: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.144 Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe Time: 26 April 2011, 1:44:01 pm UUID: 439b923a-997e-4f51-9b7d-90896f8dd97f Ancestors: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.143 Name: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.143 Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe Time: 26 April 2011, 1:24:30 pm UUID: 08a56e5b-3270-4231-9568-4e5beffb58ae Ancestors: Zinc-HTTP-SvenVanCaekenberghe.142 I manually tried to copy them from my local package-cache to SS using the Copy button, that seemed to have gone OK, but they still don't appear on SS. Anyone any idea ? Thx, Sven

April 27, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-users] [ANN] PharoDev-1.3-13173

by Tudor Girba

Thanks, Mariano! We will move the latest Moose development build to this Pharo version next week. Cheers, Doru On 27 Apr 2011, at 10:21, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > Hi. IMPORTANT: This is not the final 1.3 release, it just one simple snapshot and one point. We all want a rock-solid Pharo 1.3 release, but that doesn't happens automagically. We all need to start using and testing the image before they are release. It is for the better of all of us. The more we test the more stable will be the release. So...we need your help. What you can do? > > 1) test test test test test. Use it. Take this image and use it for your regular work. > 2) report bugs: http://www.pharo-project.org/community/issue-tracking > 3) propose fixes: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/HowToContribute > 4) Fix errors/failures tests > 5) Load your OWN packages and projects now. Don't wait until Pharo1.3 is released and then ask "uuhh what happened to XXX? you removed? ohhh but I use it". > 6) Do you maintain Metacello configurations? ok, if you test your project and works correctly in Pharo 1.3, please update (or create if you don't yet have it) the #stable, > 7) Do you maintain packages included in Pharo? please check we are using the correct versions > 8) I would like to see people testing AidaWeb, Magma, Fuel, Moose, DBXTalk, Seaside and all its friends, Zinc, FileSystem, etc, etc, etc. > > Pharo-1.3-13173 should work with Interpreter VM and with Cog. For Cog I recommend to download the last one from Eliot's page: http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ > > Two little warnings: > - The Transcript is read only....and it will probably be roll backed to the previous one > - if text editing looks weird....it is Lukas's fault ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTMX1f8Lu5w > > Ok, the image is here: https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/28517/Pharo-1.3-13173.zip > > And it was build by Hudson: https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/view/Pharo/job/Pharo%201.3/111/ > > Best regards, > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution."

April 27, 2011

[Pharo-project] [ANN] PharoDev-1.3-13173

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Hi. IMPORTANT: This is not the final 1.3 release, it just one simple snapshot and one point. We all want a rock-solid Pharo 1.3 release, but that doesn't happens automagically. We all need to start using and testing the image before they are release. It is for the better of all of us. The more we test the more stable will be the release. So...we need your help. What you can do? 1) test test test test test. Use it. Take this image and use it for your regular work. 2) report bugs: http://www.pharo-project.org/community/issue-tracking 3) propose fixes: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/HowToContribute 4) Fix errors/failures tests 5) Load your OWN packages and projects now. Don't wait until Pharo1.3 is released and then ask "uuhh what happened to XXX? you removed? ohhh but I use it". 6) Do you maintain Metacello configurations? ok, if you test your project and works correctly in Pharo 1.3, please update (or create if you don't yet have it) the #stable, 7) Do you maintain packages included in Pharo? please check we are using the correct versions 8) I would like to see people testing AidaWeb, Magma, Fuel, Moose, DBXTalk, Seaside and all its friends, Zinc, FileSystem, etc, etc, etc. Pharo-1.3-13173 should work with Interpreter VM and with Cog. For Cog I recommend to download the last one from Eliot's page: http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ Two little warnings: - The Transcript is read only....and it will probably be roll backed to the previous one - if text editing looks weird....it is Lukas's fault ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTMX1f8Lu5w Ok, the image is here: https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/28517/Pharo-1.3-13173.zip<https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/28517/Pharo-1.3-13173.zip> And it was build by Hudson: https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/view/Pharo/job/Pharo%201.3/111/ Best regards, -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

April 27, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] pseudo class

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

pseudo class only serves the purpose to browse code not installed in the image. We will remove them soon and replace them by Ring meta model entities. All the tools should be able to use Ring entity since they are polymorphic to runtime entities. For example, no need for a special browser just a normal one using the same interface to manipulate in image, remote or on disc changeset like or MC entities RIght now pseudo class are just a hack to cover the lack of a decent code meta model. Stef On Apr 27, 2011, at 6:07 AM, Sean Allen wrote: > i've been poking around trying to figure out what pseudo class does in pharo and haven't really been successul. > can someone give me some basic background on the role it serves?

April 27, 2011