March 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] What is the future of GUI in Pharo?

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

I also think mobile apps are nice targets... I would love to do native mobile apps (and semi-native based on html5/JS - phonegap, jquerymobile...) that would mainly by the UI for smalltalk apps hosted on a server (be it personnal computers on our home local network or an outside server reachable everywhere). There are more and more of them (iOs Remote, Home sharing in iPod, Air Video, ...) and I think that'd be truly great to have a Pharo image with tools to help build such server apps... My 2 dreamer cents, CÃ©drick

March 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] pharo closures

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

+1 > Hi: >> >> On 25 Mar 2011, at 11:01, Toon Verwaest wrote: >> >>> If you really win a lot of performance by doing so, this is justified (although I would still give it a different class than just Array ;)). I'm just trying to find out if that performance boost is really there. But I'm going to take this offline I think not to pollute the whole mailing list with our circular conversations, and I'll report back if we figure something interesting out ;) >> Well, for what it is worth, I really enjoy such discussions. And they are much more than all the usual ones here on the list ;) >> >> If you do not feel that the Pharo mailing list is the right place, there is always an almost unused smalltalk research mailing list... >> > No, it is right place for such discussions. > Come on, since when extra mail traffic in Pharo list became a problem? :) > > For people who interested in topic (like me), they can read and learn > something new (and put their ignorant 2cents ;) . > And if you do it privately, then we will have just two people who know > how closures are implemented instead of 10 or 20 ones. > > >> Best regards >> Stefan >> >> >> -- >> Stefan Marr >> Software Languages Lab >> Vrije Universiteit Brussel >> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium >> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr >> Phone: +32 2 629 2974 >> Fax: +32 2 629 3525 >> >> >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >

March 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] GUIs with Pharo / how to learn smalltalk

by GÃ¶ran Krampe

On 03/25/2011 06:48 AM, Daniel Lyons wrote: > Hi, > > I have two questions, a technical one and a more general one. > > In broad strokes, what are people doing for GUIs? Basically: - For tools inside Pharo/Squeak, for research and for hobby projects etc, we use Morphic. If you want it running inside Pharo there is only Morphic (discounting MVC). - For getting paid we probably use Seaside, web stuff. In *broad strokes*. > The general question I have is basically, am I the problem? Basically yes :). No, just kidding. But this is open source and we typically like hacking more than spewing out documentation :). But *there is* docs, as others have pointed out. But as others also have pointed out - Smalltalk code is great for reading and *running*. Learn to use the tools for: - Code navigation. alt-shift-N, alt-n, alt-m are especially your friends. - Debugging. And halos are good to rip something apart that you wounder how the hell it is built. :) - Running and *reading* unit tests. Also, the best way to build a Morphic UI, especially if you want to build say a tool - is to copy code from a tool that seems similar and learn from there. But if you do that, try to verify that the code you are copying is reasonable *new* code so that you don't learn how to build stuff 10 years ago. ;) When I built the Squeakmap Package Loader I copied from the SystemBrowser I think. ;) > I hope none of this comes across as negative; I think surely it's that I'm missing something. Nah, not really. We don't typically have great docs, but we do have very good tools and the code is often very readable and easy to copy and adjust etc. regards, GÃ¶ran

March 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] pharo closures

by Henrik Johansen

On Mar 25, 2011, at 12:54 25PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 25 March 2011 12:35, Stefan Marr <pharo(a)stefan-marr.de> wrote: >> Hi: >> >> On 25 Mar 2011, at 11:01, Toon Verwaest wrote: >> >>> If you really win a lot of performance by doing so, this is justified (although I would still give it a different class than just Array ;)). I'm just trying to find out if that performance boost is really there. But I'm going to take this offline I think not to pollute the whole mailing list with our circular conversations, and I'll report back if we figure something interesting out ;) >> Well, for what it is worth, I really enjoy such discussions. And they are much more than all the usual ones here on the list ;) >> >> If you do not feel that the Pharo mailing list is the right place, there is always an almost unused smalltalk research mailing list... >> > No, it is right place for such discussions. > Come on, since when extra mail traffic in Pharo list became a problem? :) Agreed. Interesting technical discussion is much better than all of the "Cool!" and "Me too!" posts we already get. (Which of course, ironically, this is one) > For people who interested in topic (like me), they can read and learn > something new (and put their ignorant 2cents ;) . > And if you do it privately, then we will have just two people who know > how closures are implemented instead of 10 or 20 ones. And if I don't have time now delve in deep now, it's always searchable later. No need to send emails asking participants what happened to the experiments they ran in private as a result of that thread I spotted, but didn't have time to read thoroughly 4 months ago :) Cheers, Henry

March 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] pharo closures

by Igor Stasenko

On 25 March 2011 12:35, Stefan Marr <pharo(a)stefan-marr.de> wrote: > Hi: > > On 25 Mar 2011, at 11:01, Toon Verwaest wrote: > >> If you really win a lot of performance by doing so, this is justified (although I would still give it a different class than just Array ;)). I'm just trying to find out if that performance boost is really there. But I'm going to take this offline I think not to pollute the whole mailing list with our circular conversations, and I'll report back if we figure something interesting out ;) > Well, for what it is worth, I really enjoy such discussions. And they are much more than all the usual ones here on the list ;) > > If you do not feel that the Pharo mailing list is the right place, there is always an almost unused smalltalk research mailing list... > No, it is right place for such discussions. Come on, since when extra mail traffic in Pharo list became a problem? :) For people who interested in topic (like me), they can read and learn something new (and put their ignorant 2cents ;) . And if you do it privately, then we will have just two people who know how closures are implemented instead of 10 or 20 ones. > Best regards > Stefan > > > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: Â +32 2 629 3525 > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

March 25, 2011

[Pharo-project] [update 1.3] #13109

by Marcus Denker

13109 ----- Issue 3863: packages cleanup needed -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

March 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] What is the future of GUI in Pharo?

by Igor Stasenko

On 25 March 2011 12:12, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Isn't there some kind of "Ideas" page yet? Would also be useful for GSoC, >> etc. > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/IdeasToImplement > > but I guess it is quite outdated > Yes. But it would be nice to annotate this page and see and compare where we are now. >> >> 2011/3/24 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> >>> >>> Stef, put that on wiki, or somewhere else, so we can read it later :) >>> >>> I like Grand Plans.. especially if they are succeed :) >>> >>> On 24 March 2011 09:17, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >>> wrote: >>> > Here is the vision: we need it better and simpler with better widgets, >>> > better UIBuilder and better tools. >>> > if you give me some engineers I can build something clear, now this is >>> > not the case so we are exploring and multiple paths >>> > Now if you want to see the system moving faster just join and help >>> > >>> > So here is a list >>> > >>> > Frameworks >>> > ---------- >>> > First step >>> > Â Â Â Â - Integrate polymorph (move class to the right packages, remove >>> > overrides) >>> > Â Â Â Â - Reduce complexity of morphic when possible >>> > >>> > In parallel >>> > Â Â Â Â - Clean SimpleMorphic (remove preferences, PopUpChoiceMenu) >>> > Â Â Â Â - Based on SimpleMorphic, clean also Morphic >>> > >>> > Alain told me that he want to take simpleMorphic and create a kernel >>> > that can be run and debugged on the side >>> > or morphic. Then he wants to add list and tree and see if he can add a >>> > better version of polymorph. >>> > Now he can fail too. so this is why the incremental points are >>> > important. >>> > >>> > Fixing and improving announcements is important >>> > Â Â Â Â - It was done during the last sprint >>> > Â Â Â Â - We were discussing how to make anonucement faster to avoid to >>> > climbing their parent tree - but no success so far. >>> > Â Â Â Â - Â We evaluated signals (as used in HPI frameworks) and we do >>> > not really like it. The use of thisContext is probably a problem among >>> > others. >>> > >>> > Widgets >>> > ------- >>> > We need better widgets >>> > Â Â Â Â - accordion >>> > Â Â Â Â - better text >>> > Â Â Â Â - grid >>> > Â Â Â Â We should evaluate your widgets to integrate them. But first we >>> > should clean what is there. >>> > Â Â Â Â Stacking on top of bad foundation just make the system more >>> > complex and difficult to maintain. >>> > >>> > >>> > Low level: a new Canvas and clean event >>> > ----------------------------------- >>> > Â Â Â Â Igor started to design a new canvas called Athens and we will >>> > see where it will go >>> > Â Â Â Â Again if people want to see this coming faster, they should >>> > help. >>> > Â Â Â Â The idea is to have a canvas for >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - opengl >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - cairo >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - bitbl >>> > >>> > Â Â Â Â We are evaluating the event hierarchy designed by Mickael Rueger >>> > and we would like >>> > Â Â Â Â to integrate it: eliminate the floating of arrays btween >>> > eventfetcher and HandMorph >>> > Â Â Â Â the idea is that event should be emitted by eventSensor not raw >>> > array >>> > >>> > Â Â Â Â I'm starting to clean Sensor references that are using the >>> > polling behavior because we should not have polling anymore >>> > Â Â Â Â the Windows virtual machine should be fixed and get the >>> > enhancement that Igor sent more than a year ago for the input semaphore >>> > Â Â Â Â and so that all the vm are aligned. >>> > >>> > >>> > Tools >>> > ----- >>> > Â Â Â Â We are rewriting from scratch the basic tools >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - Browser (Nautilus soon to be announced - with groups, >>> > package browsers, refactorings, may be plugin architecture) >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - Finder >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - TestRunner (soon) >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - MCBrowser >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - Debugger (waiting for a debugger model) >>> > Â Â Â Â The idea is that we want to kill the StringHolder hierarchy >>> > alltogther so in a first phase we will probably have to keep it >>> > Â Â Â Â for the debugger but only for it. >>> > >>> > Â Â Â Â We will remove toolBuilder (we are waiting to finish the >>> > TestRunner rewriting). >>> > >>> > Â Â Â Â Glamour will probably be used as a default super IDE of the >>> > future but it depends on people >>> > Â Â Â Â We are currently working on the fall back (the tools when you >>> > have nothing). >>> > >>> > So I hope it clarifies the picture and you are welcome to help. Now an >>> > important point >>> > This is not because something is under preparation that the other >>> > should not get clean and improve. >>> > We have no problem throwing away our effort if something better come up >>> > but we should be prepared that nothing come up or is delayed >>> > this is why we have this parallel strategy. >>> > >>> > >>> > Stef >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> Many new things is happens this days on Pharo, and I donÂ´t understand >>> >> the >>> >> status of all. >>> >> >>> >> What is the future of GUI in Pharo? what changes will happen? which is >>> >> the >>> >> roadmap? Â Now I see SimpleMorphic. Pharo will work with it? Pharo will >>> >> works >>> >> with another way of draw/render the morphs? >>> >> We will reduce the number of morph classes and hierarchy? The Morphic >>> >> UI >>> >> designer will be incorporated in dev image? >>> >> >>> >> Thanks for your answers. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Dennis Schetinin > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

March 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] pharo closures

by Stefan Marr

Hi: On 25 Mar 2011, at 11:01, Toon Verwaest wrote: > If you really win a lot of performance by doing so, this is justified (although I would still give it a different class than just Array ;)). I'm just trying to find out if that performance boost is really there. But I'm going to take this offline I think not to pollute the whole mailing list with our circular conversations, and I'll report back if we figure something interesting out ;) Well, for what it is worth, I really enjoy such discussions. And they are much more than all the usual ones here on the list ;) If you do not feel that the Pharo mailing list is the right place, there is always an almost unused smalltalk research mailing list... Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

March 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 3863 in pharo: packages cleanup needed

by pharo＠googlecode.com

Updates: Status: Closed Comment #2 on issue 3863 by marcus.d...(a)gmail.com: packages cleanup needed http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3863 in 13109

March 25, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] GUIs with Pharo / how to learn smalltalk

by Igor Stasenko

On 25 March 2011 06:48, Daniel Lyons <fusion(a)storytotell.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I have two questions, a technical one and a more general one. > > In broad strokes, what are people doing for GUIs? My guess would be using Morphic, but googling around you find more abuse than use, it looks like, and very little live links to up-to-date documentation. It makes me wonder: is there something other than Morphic which is being used? Or is everyone doing web apps? Or is there some other GUI toolkit I haven't found yet, and that's where all the action is? Whenever I see a neat Morphic window or something, I feel a bit like there's a party going on somewhere and I didn't get an invitation. Like the first rule of Morphic club is you don't talk about Morphic club. > > The general question I have is basically, am I the problem? Is it that the documentation isn't where I expect to find it, or in the form I'm used to seeing, or that it isn't relevant somehow in the Smalltalk universe? Or is it all really intuitive except for me? :) I could accept that, I suppose, but how did you Smalltalk wizards become wizards? Did you just dive in and start reading the code in your own image? in most cases. And reading mailing lists , asking questions .. >Was there some master Smalltalk wizard that you knew who showed you how to do these things? Just ask questions, read answers. It works here. :) Our community is quite inviting to newcomers and we help each other. That's what i discovered when i first came to squeak community (Pharo was not formed at those days). >I'm currently reading Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns and it's one of the best programming books I've ever read. I see that there is a great deal of mastery of programming going around in Smalltalk circles, but I don't see the books that take you past beginner towards master, other than SBPP. So what's the trick going on here? How did you guys become excellent? > By reading code and writing code, exchanging ideas and communicating :) > I hope none of this comes across as negative; I think surely it's that I'm missing something. > > Thanks, > > â > Daniel Lyons > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

March 25, 2011