March 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo on Apple App Store

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>wrote: > >> Which is? > >> > >> Alexandre > > > > I read prediction Android may take it all. > > > > Remember the '80 with the PC open standard? Now it is the software which > > is standard and pretty sure the Asian manufacturers will jump into, no? > > Ah ah! I have a different opinion. I think the humanity, now, cannot > produce a reliable and efficient operating system that works on many > different platforms while caring about the user. Do you want to build the best OS ever? Just write a nice/sexy UI with: - a program to chat with all MSN/iChat/skype/etc - firefox (consider using a that a microsoft office like website for words, excels, etc) - a program to listen to music - a program to watch videos - a program to read pdfs And that's all. You have covered 90% of the needs of 90% of the existen users. An OS that never fails, and that has just 5 buttons for those things, is all they need. Don't even put names to programs, jsut: "chat" "internet" "music" "videos" and "pictures" cheers mariano > The effort is simply too big. Microsoft knows about it. State-of-the-Art > formal verification techniques simply cannot ensure that a driver will not > crash your machine. And so, whatever the amount of money poured into it. > > By shipping the hardware, Apple is playing on a safe side. So, in my > opinion, something like Ipad will rule on some point: a few different > platforms, gorgeous interface, regarding the user as an intelligent being. > > Alexandre > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > >

March 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo on Apple App Store

by Stephan Eggermont

Hilaire Fernandes wrote: >I read prediction Android may take it all. There are currently no signs of that. Stephen Elop (of Nokia) allegedly wrote "In 2008, Appleâs market share in the $300+ price range was 25 percent; by 2010 it escalated to 61 percent. They are enjoying a tremendous growth trajectory with a 78 percent earnings growth year over year in Q4 2010." That means there can be large numbers of Android devices on the market, but at a very low price. That's killing the producers, instead of making them rich. Or to explain it differently: Apple's problem is getting enough devices out the door. Not the price. If they want more market share, they can simply introduce lower-priced models, unlike the Android producers. As long as the Android market is so shattered and so incapable of producing compelling alternatives, they wait. Do you know "Inside the Tornado" by Geoffrey A. Moore (you might know him from "Crossing the Chasm"). My version has a quote by the founder and CEO, NeXT Computer on the title page. Stephan

March 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

by David T. Lewis

On Fri, Mar 04, 2011 at 10:29:05AM -0500, Dimitry Golubovsky wrote: > Hi, > > G??ran Krampe wrote: > > > ...or we need to get Squeak running inside/on-top-of Dalvik somehow. > > Weird ideas: > - PotatoSqueak is a port of the Squeak VM to java. Run that on Dalvik > and hey... > - PySqueak using Pypy could probably generate a fast Squeak VM running > in java bytecode which possibly also could be run on Dalvik. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Well the original discussion on the Squeak ML declined into the OLPC > issues (back to Intel that is ;) > > Let's continue here. > > Thanks for the hints, I looked into these projects, but: > > Potato Squeak (JSqueak) doesn't seem alive. I tried to run it on my PC > with some recent Java (don't remember which version, same as I use to > compile Android stuff). Very slow, crashed all the time. Plus image > version is 2.x ... > > PySqueak seems like the repo is gone. Also, it's old too. > > Anyway, wrt translation of Squeak/Pharo VM to Java. How much labor > would it take to change VMMaker so it generates Java code instead of > C? Given some similarity between the two languages syntax? I think this is a perfectly reasonable thing to consider. There is of course a C code generator already in place in VMMaker, and there is no reason that a Java code generator could not be written. Matched up with some support code written in Java, the result would in principle be a VM written entirely in Java with no clib calls, FFI, JNI, etc. I do not know what the resulting performance would be, and there is no good way to really know without trying it. But it might very well be good enough to produce a usable VM. My guess, based on absolutely no data whatsoever, is that such a VM might run perhaps 2 or 3 times slower than a standard interpreter VM. I note that the C VMs gain a lot of their performance through the C code inlining performed by the Slang translation (which is amazingly effective by the way). I don't know if similar optimizations would apply to a Java implementation, but it seems possible that a decent Java generator with inlining might produce acceptable results. > I need to move on with the native port because my endpoint is in a > concrete application rather than the port itself. But would anyone be > interested in adjusting VMMaker? If someone writes the Java code generator, then I would be happy to work on adjusting VMMaker to use it (and I'm sure others will help also). I'm not offering to write the code generator, but I think it would be great if someone wants to give it a try. Dave

March 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] COG VM and Locale

by Hilaire Fernandes

Le 04/03/2011 14:37, Hilaire Fernandes a Ã©crit : > Now, I still don't figure out what I should look at when stepping in the > VM from GDB. I will try to figure out again. Here is the step by step from breakpoint to running state: Breakpoint 1, initialiseModule () at /home/hilaire/Travaux/pharo/temp/COG/src/plugins/LocalePlugin/LocalePlugin.c:112 112 return sqLocInitialize(); (gdb) n 113 } (gdb) n callInitializersIn (pluginName=<value optimized out>, ffiLoad=<value optimized out>) at /home/hilaire/Travaux/pharo/temp/COG/platforms/Cross/vm/sqNamedPrims.c:211 211 if(!okay) { (gdb) print The history is empty. (gdb) print init2 $1 = (void *) 0x559530 (gdb) print okay $2 = <value optimized out> (gdb) n findOrLoadModule (pluginName=0x559530 "U\211\345S\350\356\370\377\377\201Ã»\032", ffiLoad=5606992) at /home/hilaire/Travaux/pharo/temp/COG/platforms/Cross/vm/sqNamedPrims.c:286 286 } (gdb) n ioLoadFunctionFrom (functionName=0xbff5d74c "primitiveTimezoneOffset", pluginName=0xbff5d64c "LocalePlugin") at /home/hilaire/Travaux/pharo/temp/COG/platforms/Cross/vm/sqNamedPrims.c:298 298 if(!module) { (gdb) n 303 if(!functionName) { (gdb) n 309 } (gdb) n 308 return findFunctionIn(functionName, module); (gdb) n 309 } (gdb) n ioLoadFunctionFrom (functionName=0x78139a2c "primitiveTimezoneOffset", pluginName=0x17 <Address 0x17 out of bounds>) at /home/hilaire/Travaux/pharo/temp/COG/platforms/Cross/vm/sqNamedPrims.c:308 308 return findFunctionIn(functionName, module); (gdb) n findFunctionIn (functionName=0xbff5d74c "primitiveTimezoneOffset", module=0x81a11e8) at /home/hilaire/Travaux/pharo/temp/COG/platforms/Cross/vm/sqNamedPrims.c:157 157 { (gdb) n 158 if(module->handle == squeakModule->handle) (gdb) n 161 return findExternalFunctionIn(functionName, module); (gdb) n 162 } (gdb) n ioLoadExternalFunctionOfLengthFromModuleOfLength (functionNameIndex=2014550572, functionNameLength=23, moduleNameIndex=2014550204, moduleNameLength=12) at /home/hilaire/Travaux/pharo/temp/COG/platforms/Cross/vm/sqNamedPrims.c:332 332 } (gdb) n primitiveExternalCall () at /home/hilaire/Travaux/pharo/temp/COG/src/vm/gcc3x-cointerp.c:27113 27113 if (addr == 0) { (gdb) n 27118 for (i = GIV(externalPrimitiveTableFirstFreeIndex); i <= (MaxExternalPrimitiveTableSize - 1); i += 1) { (gdb) n 27122 goto l1; (gdb) n 27119 if ((externalPrimitiveTable[i]) == 0) { (gdb) n 27120 externalPrimitiveTable[i] = addr; (gdb) n 27121 index = GIV(externalPrimitiveTableFirstFreeIndex) = i + 1; (gdb) n 27128 longAtput((lit + BaseHeaderSize) + (3 << ShiftForWord), ((index << 1) | 1)); (gdb) n 27129 if (index >= 0) { (gdb) n 27130 rewriteMethodCacheEntryForExternalPrimitiveToFunction(addr); (gdb) n 27131 callExternalPrimitive(addr); (gdb) n 27137 } (gdb) n activateInterpreterMethodFromMachineCode () at /home/hilaire/Travaux/pharo/temp/COG/src/vm/gcc3x-cointerp.c:8598 8598 if (FailImbalancedPrimitives (gdb) n 8600 && ((GIV(framePointer) == savedFramePointer) (gdb) n 8598 if (FailImbalancedPrimitives (gdb) n 8601 && (!((((usqInt)(longAt(GIV(framePointer) + FoxMethod)))) < heapBase))))) { (gdb) n 8608 if (GIV(nextProfileTick) > 0) { (gdb) n 8613 if (GIV(primFailCode) == 0) { (gdb) n 8614 returntoExecutive(popStack(), 0); (gdb) n 8621 activateNewMethod(); (gdb) n -- Education 0.2 -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire

March 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Kernel

by Eliot Miranda

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 8:07 AM, Benjamin < benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mar 4, 2011, at 4:38 PM, Eliot Miranda wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 4:51 AM, Benjamin < > benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hello guys, >> >> >> I finally success (with the help of Igor) to trace and create a new >> Smalltalk kernel based on Pharo. The new born weight 2.2Mb and includes 230 >> classes ;) >> > > > > > Woot!!!!! Is this still a tracer or does it create a new kernel from > source? > > > It's a tracer that uses a list of classes (your kernel) to serialize a new > image. > > One of the planned step is to use a minimal image and try to recompile code > from source :) > > > > If it's still a tracer when do you think you'll have a creator and what are > you calling it? > > > I do not understand your question :( > I mean what are your plans regarding recompiling from source. What's the name of this step and when are you planning to start work on it? It's the step I'm really waiting for :) best, Eliot > > > Ben ;) > > > > great news > thanks > Eliot > > >> >> You can try it here: >> >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'PharoTaskForces'; >> package: 'SystemTracing'; >> load. >> >> Gofer new >> squeaksource: 'Seed'; >> package: 'Seed-HazelBuilder'; >> load. >> >> HazelTracer2 writeImage: 'hazel.image'. >> >> >> If you have an error in Point>>#printOn: , you can use this fix >> >> >> >> >> >> I want to thank Igor again, because he helps me a lot :) >> >> >> >> Ben >> > > >

March 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Kernel

by Benjamin

On Mar 4, 2011, at 4:38 PM, Eliot Miranda wrote: > Hi Ben, > > On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 4:51 AM, Benjamin <benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello guys, > > > I finally success (with the help of Igor) to trace and create a new Smalltalk kernel based on Pharo. The new born weight 2.2Mb and includes 230 classes ;) > > > Woot!!!!! Is this still a tracer or does it create a new kernel from source? It's a tracer that uses a list of classes (your kernel) to serialize a new image. One of the planned step is to use a minimal image and try to recompile code from source :) > If it's still a tracer when do you think you'll have a creator and what are you calling it? I do not understand your question :( Ben ;) > great news > thanks > Eliot > > > You can try it here: > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'PharoTaskForces'; > package: 'SystemTracing'; > load. > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'Seed'; > package: 'Seed-HazelBuilder'; > load. > > HazelTracer2 writeImage: 'hazel.image'. > > > If you have an error in Point>>#printOn: , you can use this fix > > > > > > I want to thank Igor again, because he helps me a lot :) > > > > Ben >

March 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 1332 in pharo: String literals are not cloned

by pharo＠googlecode.com

Comment #9 on issue 1332 by dimac...(a)gmail.com: String literals are not cloned http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1332 My vote for immutable Strings. The actual behavior is, in my opinion, misleading.

March 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 1332 in pharo: String literals are not cloned

by pharo＠googlecode.com

Comment #8 on issue 1332 by dimac...(a)gmail.com: String literals are not cloned http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1332 My vote for immutable Strings. The actual behavior in my opinion is misleading.

March 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

by Marcus Denker

On Mar 4, 2011, at 4:29 PM, Dimitry Golubovsky wrote: > > Well the original discussion on the Squeak ML declined into the OLPC > issues (back to Intel that is ;) > > Let's continue here. > > Thanks for the hints, I looked into these projects, but: > > Potato Squeak (JSqueak) doesn't seem alive. I tried to run it on my PC > with some recent Java (don't remember which version, same as I use to > compile Android stuff). Very slow, crashed all the time. Plus image > version is 2.x ... > > PySqueak seems like the repo is gone. Also, it's old too. > > Anyway, wrt translation of Squeak/Pharo VM to Java. How much labor > would it take to change VMMaker so it generates Java code instead of > C? Given some similarity between the two languages syntax? > > I need to move on with the native port because my endpoint is in a > concrete application rather than the port itself. But would anyone be > interested in adjusting VMMaker? This is *far* more complicated then that. An interpreter for Smalltalk written in Java would be *very* slow. So one would need to do a "JIT" that translates smalltalk to java... difficult, and a huge project in itself. The worst aspect: You need to be *the* expert on Java VM internals to do that. I am doing Pharo because this is exactly where I do not want to go. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

March 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Kernel

by Eliot Miranda

Hi Ben, On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 4:51 AM, Benjamin < benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello guys, > > > I finally success (with the help of Igor) to trace and create a new > Smalltalk kernel based on Pharo. The new born weight 2.2Mb and includes 230 > classes ;) > Woot!!!!! Is this still a tracer or does it create a new kernel from source? If it's still a tracer when do you think you'll have a creator and what are you calling it? great news thanks Eliot > > You can try it here: > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'PharoTaskForces'; > package: 'SystemTracing'; > load. > > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'Seed'; > package: 'Seed-HazelBuilder'; > load. > > HazelTracer2 writeImage: 'hazel.image'. > > > If you have an error in Point>>#printOn: , you can use this fix > > > > > > I want to thank Igor again, because he helps me a lot :) > > > > Ben >

March 4, 2011