November 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Simple vs. Easy

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Sure, Cuis is really cool as well as very impressive. However, it is limited: I want: Seaside Moose HTTP Client+Server Monticello Metacello XML JSON Glorp Database Access FFI UTF8 and other encodings â¦ I want a practical Smalltalk that I can use to build useful applications, building on top of great frameworks. Pharo takes on all these and at the same time tries to simplify things, the hard way. Sven On 04 Nov 2011, at 14:35, Jimmie Houchin wrote: > Forward with permission from Juan Vuletich Fri, 04 Nov 2011 08:42:03 -0300 > > Hi Folks, > > I'm answering you off-list because I'm not subscribed to the Pharo list. > Feel free to forward this there, if you wish. > > I think it is great to put focus on simplicity (an objective value) over > easyness (a subjective value). Rich also makes a good critic to usual > practices, including the dichotomy between understanding and TDD (test > driven development). > > However, the value of simplicity is not something new. The difference > between essential complexity and accidental complexity is the heart of > "No Silver Bullet â Essence and Accidents of Software Engineering" (by > Fred Brooks, 1986) and "There Is a Silver Bullet" (by Brad Cox, 1990, > http://drdobbs.com/184407534) It is also central to Smalltalk, see > "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" (by Dan Ingalls, 1981, > http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmps112/Spring03/readings/Ingalls81.html) > These three articles might be the most important writings on software > engineering ever. > > The problem with this discussion is that everybody will claim simplicity > is a crucial objective of their project. However, Pharo and Squeak don't > realize (or don't want to realize) that simplicity appears only by > removing complexity, never by adding more of it. > > Cuis is a Squeak fork with the #1 objective of being simple and > understandable. It is the result of more than 10 years suffering the > accidental complexity in Squeak, comparing with other Smalltalks, > together with a lot of reflection and work, by me and others. It is, I > believe, the only Smalltalk in active development that pursues this > objective of the original Smalltalk-80 project. You can get it from > http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html . Browse it a bit. Take > statistics (lines of code, etc). Compare. You might have a nice surprise. > > Jimmie, you asked "How can we move Pharo to be a better answer to Simple > vs. Easy?". My answer is: start anew. Rebase on top of Cuis. Give up > feature list as a priority, and focus on simplicity. Make a list of the > features in Pharo that are really important, and not part of Cuis, and > turn them into optional packages. Make that list as short as possible! > Worry more about code quality and less about discarding potentially > useful stuff, that is not good enough. > > Cheers, > Juan Vuletich > >

Nov. 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] crash of the vm on ubuntu

by Jorge Ressia

Hi guys, Flushing the selector is enough. Eliot fixed this problem some time ago. Look at the discussion http://forum.world.st/Re-Pharo-project-Troubles-with-flushCache-and-run-wit… @Alex I have a test case that I built for Eliot. If you send me your image and VM I can try out to see if there is a similar problem. Cheers, On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com > wrote: > Flushing the behavior is way too much, since if I understand correctly, it > will flush the whole method cache (including PICs etc ). > In my experience, with the latest version, just flushing the selector is > enough. It is not in your case? > > Cheers > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>wrote: > >> > What is still not clear to me is what you need to flush when replacing >> a method with an object. The selector, the old method, the new method, or >> the behavior? Last time I tried I got the best results flushing the >> behavior, but I would like to know what should be used for real. >> >> +1 >> I also flush the behavior. >> >> Alexandre >> >> > >> > On Friday, 4 November 2011, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> >> wrote: >> > > Ok >> > > Thanks, we will try >> > > >> > > Alexandre >> > > >> > > >> > > On 4 Nov 2011, at 11:01, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >> > > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel < >> alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: >> > >> Hi! >> > >> >> > >> My students are experiencing frequent crashes of the CogVM when >> playing with Spy (a profiling framework that instrument compile methods and >> replace them during the execution). My students use a MooseOneClick bundle. >> I am not sure which version of the CogVM they use actually. Is there a way >> to check this? >> > >> >> > >> Anyone has experienced frequent crashes with Ubuntu? >> > >> >> > >> There were some issues with #cannotInterpret: and #run:with:in with >> previous versions of Cog. However, with the last version Eliot' Cog all of >> them are fixed >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Cheers, >> > >> Alexandre >> > >> -- >> > >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> > >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> > >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> Mariano >> > >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >> > >> >> > > >> > > -- >> > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > -- >> > Lukas Renggli >> > www.lukas-renggli.ch >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > -- Jorge Ressia www.jorgeressia.com

Nov. 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Simple vs. Easy

by Igor Stasenko

On 4 November 2011 14:35, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Forward with permission from Juan Vuletich Fri, 04 Nov 2011 08:42:03 -0300 > > Hi Folks, > > I'm answering you off-list because I'm not subscribed to the Pharo list. > Feel free to forward this there, if you wish. > > I think it is great to put focus on simplicity (an objective value) over > easyness (a subjective value). Rich also makes a good critic to usual > practices, including the dichotomy between understanding and TDD (test > driven development). > > However, the value of simplicity is not something new. The difference > between essential complexity and accidental complexity is the heart of > "No Silver Bullet â Essence and Accidents of Software Engineering" (by > Fred Brooks, 1986) and "There Is a Silver Bullet" (by Brad Cox, 1990, > http://drdobbs.com/184407534) It is also central to Smalltalk, see > "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" (by Dan Ingalls, 1981, > http://classes.soe.ucsc.edu/cmps112/Spring03/readings/Ingalls81.html) > These three articles might be the most important writings on software > engineering ever. > > The problem with this discussion is that everybody will claim simplicity > is a crucial objective of their project. However, Pharo and Squeak don't > realize (or don't want to realize) that simplicity appears only by > removing complexity, never by adding more of it. > can't say about Squeak, but i observing Pharo activities, i don't see how Juan's claim fit: - bug fixing a bugs found in system could lead to changes which in order to fix them could increase complexity, or otherwise decrease it. So, this activity cannot objectively considered as evil which automatically and always plays against simplicity. - refactoring/rewriting parts of system The intent to rewrite parts were always: reduce complexity. And if it including adding new features, it was always to do it carefully and without horrible complexity. - removing obsolete/unused code no need to comment this one, since obviously it cannot increase complexity of system. > Cuis is a Squeak fork with the #1 objective of being simple and > understandable. It is the result of more than 10 years suffering the > accidental complexity in Squeak, comparing with other Smalltalks, > together with a lot of reflection and work, by me and others. It is, I > believe, the only Smalltalk in active development that pursues this > objective of the original Smalltalk-80 project. You can get it from > http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html . Browse it a bit. Take > statistics (lines of code, etc). Compare. You might have a nice surprise. > a little of advertisement never hurts, of course :) > Jimmie, you asked "How can we move Pharo to be a better answer to Simple > vs. Easy?". My answer is: start anew. Rebase on top of Cuis. Give up > feature list as a priority, and focus on simplicity. Make a list of the > features in Pharo that are really important, and not part of Cuis, and > turn them into optional packages. Make that list as short as possible! > Worry more about code quality and less about discarding potentially > useful stuff, that is not good enough. > This is a bit controversial. If you arm such ideology for developing a software, then you end up with 'hello world' application, which is of course very simple and easy to use, but utterly useless. I think the right way to do things is: - improve things which people using - add things which people want to have - remove things which nobody using. f you sacrifice everything for the sake of simplicity, then you will end up with hello world application. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] crash of the vm on ubuntu

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Flushing the behavior is way too much, since if I understand correctly, it will flush the whole method cache (including PICs etc ). In my experience, with the latest version, just flushing the selector is enough. It is not in your case? Cheers On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>wrote: > > What is still not clear to me is what you need to flush when replacing a > method with an object. The selector, the old method, the new method, or the > behavior? Last time I tried I got the best results flushing the behavior, > but I would like to know what should be used for real. > > +1 > I also flush the behavior. > > Alexandre > > > > > On Friday, 4 November 2011, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> > wrote: > > > Ok > > > Thanks, we will try > > > > > > Alexandre > > > > > > > > > On 4 Nov 2011, at 11:01, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel < > alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > >> Hi! > > >> > > >> My students are experiencing frequent crashes of the CogVM when > playing with Spy (a profiling framework that instrument compile methods and > replace them during the execution). My students use a MooseOneClick bundle. > I am not sure which version of the CogVM they use actually. Is there a way > to check this? > > >> > > >> Anyone has experienced frequent crashes with Ubuntu? > > >> > > >> There were some issues with #cannotInterpret: and #run:with:in with > previous versions of Cog. However, with the last version Eliot' Cog all of > them are fixed > > >> > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> Alexandre > > >> -- > > >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Mariano > > >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Lukas Renggli > > www.lukas-renggli.ch > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Nov. 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] crash of the vm on ubuntu

by Alexandre Bergel

> What is still not clear to me is what you need to flush when replacing a method with an object. The selector, the old method, the new method, or the behavior? Last time I tried I got the best results flushing the behavior, but I would like to know what should be used for real. +1 I also flush the behavior. Alexandre > > On Friday, 4 November 2011, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > Ok > > Thanks, we will try > > > > Alexandre > > > > > > On 4 Nov 2011, at 11:01, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > >> Hi! > >> > >> My students are experiencing frequent crashes of the CogVM when playing with Spy (a profiling framework that instrument compile methods and replace them during the execution). My students use a MooseOneClick bundle. I am not sure which version of the CogVM they use actually. Is there a way to check this? > >> > >> Anyone has experienced frequent crashes with Ubuntu? > >> > >> There were some issues with #cannotInterpret: and #run:with:in with previous versions of Cog. However, with the last version Eliot' Cog all of them are fixed > >> > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Alexandre > >> -- > >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Mariano > >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >> > > > > -- > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Nov. 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] keymappings question

by Sean P. DeNigris

Sean P. DeNigris wrote: > > What are the minimum things one has to do to have shortcuts working for a > morph class? > Nevermind, I got so excited about shortcuts that I forgot to grab keyboard focus on mouse over :) Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/keymappings-question-tp3660905p3990226.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Nov. 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] crash of the vm on ubuntu

by Lukas Renggli

What is still not clear to me is what you need to flush when replacing a method with an object. The selector, the old method, the new method, or the behavior? Last time I tried I got the best results flushing the behavior, but I would like to know what should be used for real. Lukas On Friday, 4 November 2011, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > Ok > Thanks, we will try > > Alexandre > > > On 4 Nov 2011, at 11:01, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: >> Hi! >> >> My students are experiencing frequent crashes of the CogVM when playing with Spy (a profiling framework that instrument compile methods and replace them during the execution). My students use a MooseOneClick bundle. I am not sure which version of the CogVM they use actually. Is there a way to check this? >> >> Anyone has experienced frequent crashes with Ubuntu? >> >> There were some issues with #cannotInterpret: and #run:with:in with previous versions of Cog. However, with the last version Eliot' Cog all of them are fixed >> >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Mariano >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

Nov. 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] keymappings question

by Sean P. DeNigris

Guillermo Polito wrote: > > Look at the examples > (the ones defined by Camillo, Laurent or me) and tell me if they are > understandable, hehe. > Where are the examples? I found some methods with <keymap>, and wrote my own using them as a guide, but my ImageMorph subclass is not responding to them. What are the minimum things one has to do to have shortcuts working for a morph class? Thanks. Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/keymappings-question-tp3660905p3990184.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Nov. 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] crash of the vm on ubuntu

by Alexandre Bergel

Ok Thanks, we will try Alexandre On 4 Nov 2011, at 11:01, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > Hi! > > My students are experiencing frequent crashes of the CogVM when playing with Spy (a profiling framework that instrument compile methods and replace them during the execution). My students use a MooseOneClick bundle. I am not sure which version of the CogVM they use actually. Is there a way to check this? > > Anyone has experienced frequent crashes with Ubuntu? > > There were some issues with #cannotInterpret: and #run:with:in with previous versions of Cog. However, with the last version Eliot' Cog all of them are fixed > > > Cheers, > Alexandre > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Nov. 4, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] crash of the vm on ubuntu

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>wrote: > Hi! > > My students are experiencing frequent crashes of the CogVM when playing > with Spy (a profiling framework that instrument compile methods and replace > them during the execution). My students use a MooseOneClick bundle. I am > not sure which version of the CogVM they use actually. Is there a way to > check this? > > Anyone has experienced frequent crashes with Ubuntu? > There were some issues with #cannotInterpret: and #run:with:in with previous versions of Cog. However, with the last version Eliot' Cog all of them are fixed > > Cheers, > Alexandre > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Nov. 4, 2011