November 2011 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo suffers internal Traffic Jams ...

by Norbert Hartl

Am 07.11.2011 um 00:00 schrieb Guido Stepken: > >> Reading was not a problem. But I have problems to understand what I am supposed to understand? >> >> Norbert > > You are just coder, no software architect, right? > What is the difference? > Ever tried Pharo 1.3 on a older machine, e.g. P75 with 32 MBytes RAM, some load on Seaside? Funny effects occurring... machine hangs, crashes, spends lots of time in useless functions, unneccessarily locking resouces, memory pumping, eating up resources while waiting for e.g. database answer, spending increasing amount of time (up to 98%) in removing garbage .... > I need to think a little while to come up with a single reason why I should do this. I'll come back to you if I find some. But don't wait for it. > It's a good way of identifying unmatured software designs. > Yes, and spending most of your time on non-realistic cases and yagni makes you just a bad developer. > Colliding mental models (e.g. event driven vs. polling) > Such things happen, when all members are just coding, fixing, refactoring, without bothering about algorithms, that still work reliable at low memory and high load. > Ok, how clever are you if you design your machines to have too low memory and suffer from high load? If I recap you are saying that the reason you need to be a good software architect is because you are a bad system architect? If that's right why you don't just learn a little bit about system architecture? > Pharo at the moment is still very unreliable. > > Sorry to say that! Think about, why FreeBSD works reliably even at a load of 50, whereas other OS stop working. > Explain it to me, please! Norbert

Nov. 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo suffers internal Traffic Jams ...

by Guido Stepken

> Life is short and good for positive energy. > > Stef How do i code that "positive energy" in Pharo without periodically crashing the systen? "FreeHugsClass" with extra positive energy spending methods? Have fun! Guido > > On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:00 AM, Guido Stepken wrote: > >> >>> Reading was not a problem. But I have problems to understand what I am supposed to understand? >>> >>> Norbert >> >> You are just coder, no software architect, right? >> >> Ever tried Pharo 1.3 on a older machine, e.g. P75 with 32 MBytes RAM, some load on Seaside? Funny effects occurring... machine hangs, crashes, spends lots of time in useless functions, unneccessarily locking resouces, memory pumping, eating up resources while waiting for e.g. database answer, spending increasing amount of time (up to 98%) in removing garbage .... >> >> It's a good way of identifying unmatured software designs. >> >> Colliding mental models (e.g. event driven vs. polling) >> Such things happen, when all members are just coding, fixing, refactoring, without bothering about algorithms, that still work reliable at low memory and high load. >> >> Pharo at the moment is still very unreliable. >> >> Sorry to say that! Think about, why FreeBSD works reliably even at a load of 50, whereas other OS stop working. >> >> regards, Guido Stepken > >

Nov. 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo suffers internal Traffic Jams ...

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi guido I never saw saying anything positive in this mailing-list. May be you should pay attention to you and breath a bit and try another system if pharo is so bad. You are not forced to us it. There is a VisualWorks new license or even other languages. Give a try to them, may be you will like them and do not hurt yourselves like that. Life is short and good for positive energy. Stef On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:00 AM, Guido Stepken wrote: > >> Reading was not a problem. But I have problems to understand what I am supposed to understand? >> >> Norbert > > You are just coder, no software architect, right? > > Ever tried Pharo 1.3 on a older machine, e.g. P75 with 32 MBytes RAM, some load on Seaside? Funny effects occurring... machine hangs, crashes, spends lots of time in useless functions, unneccessarily locking resouces, memory pumping, eating up resources while waiting for e.g. database answer, spending increasing amount of time (up to 98%) in removing garbage .... > > It's a good way of identifying unmatured software designs. > > Colliding mental models (e.g. event driven vs. polling) > Such things happen, when all members are just coding, fixing, refactoring, without bothering about algorithms, that still work reliable at low memory and high load. > > Pharo at the moment is still very unreliable. > > Sorry to say that! Think about, why FreeBSD works reliably even at a load of 50, whereas other OS stop working. > > regards, Guido Stepken

Nov. 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo suffers internal Traffic Jams ...

by Guido Stepken

> Reading was not a problem. But I have problems to understand what I am supposed to understand? > > Norbert You are just coder, no software architect, right? Ever tried Pharo 1.3 on a older machine, e.g. P75 with 32 MBytes RAM, some load on Seaside? Funny effects occurring... machine hangs, crashes, spends lots of time in useless functions, unneccessarily locking resouces, memory pumping, eating up resources while waiting for e.g. database answer, spending increasing amount of time (up to 98%) in removing garbage .... It's a good way of identifying unmatured software designs. Colliding mental models (e.g. event driven vs. polling) Such things happen, when all members are just coding, fixing, refactoring, without bothering about algorithms, that still work reliable at low memory and high load. Pharo at the moment is still very unreliable. Sorry to say that! Think about, why FreeBSD works reliably even at a load of 50, whereas other OS stop working. regards, Guido Stepken

Nov. 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo suffers internal Traffic Jams ...

by Norbert Hartl

Am 06.11.2011 um 15:05 schrieb Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com>: > Hi guys! > > Please first first have a look at that simulation: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmMY1nq_tgI > > Surprisingly the architecture of pharo looks very much this. Message sends, "information flow" through a dynamic ambience of "living objects" cause serious "hangs" > > Unpredictable traffic jams occurr, depending on load, e.g. Seaside, during GC, Image sync, subtile timeouts or countdows, waiting for resources to be freed, network timeouts, database lookups, e.t.c. > > Those can much easier be identified, when you downclock your machine to good old 50MHz of ancient times of squeak and develop/profile then. Design flows pretty soon become visible then, that are not visible when you proudly use always the newest Apple machine for development. > > From advanced Software architects of a new old Smalltalk OS i expect to know about such dynamic phenomenons, having deep insight into analytically identifying such normally difficult to indentifying problems, that always should be part of TDD ... > > Tnx for reading and understanding. > Reading was not a problem. But I have problems to understand what I am supposed to understand? Norbert

Nov. 6, 2011

[Pharo-project] [update 1.4] #14220

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

14220 ----- - Issue 4978: DNU: RGMethodDefinition>>first. Thanks Guillermo Polito and Benjmain van Ryseghem. http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4978 - Issue 4909: Fraction readFromString: 1/2 ---> 1. Thanks Nicolas Cellier. http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4909 Here is a restricted implementation (with tests) which - does not handle parenthesis - does not handle spaces - does not modify Number class>>readFrom: Number readFrom: 1/2 --> 1 Fraction readFrom: 1/2 --> 1/2 - Issue 4971: adding author to compiledMethod and authors to class. http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4871 - Issue 4975: Some tests that verify system consistency. Thanks lukas Renggli. http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4975 Stef

Nov. 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] MAC OS upgrade and Pharo compatibility

by Dario Trussardi

Thanks, > No, Stef, I'm the same: bugs love me! > > I am sooooooo glad for the excellent backup program SuperDuper. I did the Lion install two times before it worked OK (third time just like I wrote in my post above), but the other two times I was very happy to have the backup to go back to, I can tell you! > > -- > Cheers, > Peter > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 10:56 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Yes because I could not update after the first install. > So I was lucky to have another machine where I could install and update **then** migrate. > I was mad during 3 days. I can't lose some time now, i will not be mad. I will do it ...... ...... Ciao > Of course for everybody around it worked well but I attrack bugs. > Stef > On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:40 PM, Peter Hugosson-Miller wrote: > > > Definitely do a backup, then format the disk and perform a clean install, then do all the necessary software updates until the machine is completely up to date. Finally restore your user settings and apps from the backup. That's my recipe for minimum frustration when dealing with Lion :-) > > > > -- > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 10:34 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > There is no problem for pharo on lion. > > Now do a backup because lion of your machine. > > Lion frustrated me a lot. > > > > And in general when I see the amount of applications spinning to death on normal usage, I think that pharo is doing well. > > > > Stef > > > > On Nov 5, 2011, at 8:09 PM, Dario Trussardi wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > i'm interested to upgrade my MacBook Operating System, from Leopard to Lion version. > > > > > > I'm not expert about it and i will not do error. > > > > > > My question is about Pharo compatibility. > > > > > > Now i work with Pharo 1.0 #10517 and GemTools 1.0-beta.8.3. > > > > > > I need to do something or all work fine after upgrade the O/S ? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Dario > > > > > > P.S. Excuse me if question is not very very pertinent to Pharo > > > >

Nov. 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Funny DrGeo sketch

by Hilaire Fernandes

Le 06/11/2011 15:42, Schwab,Wilhelm K a Ã©crit : > Small typo: look at the status bar of the second image. It reads > "Erase and object..." - should be "an." The second "and" is of > course correct. > Thanks, I fixed it indeed > Dumb question: what is it that makes the file so big? At first > glance, it looks very simple. Seeing the "hidden constructions" > reveals that there has to be more to it. Is it big because of the > construction process, or are there other elements that are not > rendered? It is big because there is a lot of hidden construction, exposed in the second screenshot, then I guess it is big because it took a lot of time to the author to design it. > the top. Options are good; mandates are often bad. I have worked > around 3D simulations; the group in question is moving from Director > to Unity. With the ability to embed 3D in otherwise 2D apps, I think > Pharo would be highly competitive with those environments. Interesting perspective. I am curious. Hilaire -- Education 0.2 -- http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire

Nov. 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] crash of the vm on ubuntu

by Igor Stasenko

On 6 November 2011 08:35, Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Yes, seems to work quite stable. Only with Eliot's VM though, not with > any of the official Pharo VMs. Maybe consider updating them? > Yes, they need to be updated. > Lukas > > On 4 November 2011 16:22, Jorge Ressia <jorge.ressia(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi guys, >> >> Flushing the selector is enough. >> >> Eliot fixed this problem some time ago. Look at the discussion >> http://forum.world.st/Re-Pharo-project-Troubles-with-flushCache-and-run-wit… >> >> @Alex I have a test case that I built for Eliot. If you send me your image >> and VM I can try out to see if there is a similar problem. >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck >> <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Flushing the behavior is way too much, since if I understand correctly, it >>> will flush the whole method cache (including PICs etc ). >>> In my experience, with the latest version, just flushing the selector is >>> enough. It is not in your case? >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > What is still not clear to me is what you need to flush when replacing >>>> > a method with an object. The selector, the old method, the new method, or >>>> > the behavior? Last time I tried I got the best results flushing the >>>> > behavior, but I would like to know what should be used for real. >>>> >>>> +1 >>>> I also flush the behavior. >>>> >>>> Alexandre >>>> >>>> > >>>> > On Friday, 4 November 2011, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> >>>> > wrote: >>>> > > Ok >>>> > > Thanks, we will try >>>> > > >>>> > > Alexandre >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On 4 Nov 2011, at 11:01, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel >>>> > >> <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: >>>> > >> Hi! >>>> > >> >>>> > >> My students are experiencing frequent crashes of the CogVM when >>>> > >> playing with Spy (a profiling framework that instrument compile methods and >>>> > >> replace them during the execution). My students use a MooseOneClick bundle. >>>> > >> I am not sure which version of the CogVM they use actually. Is there a way >>>> > >> to check this? >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Anyone has experienced frequent crashes with Ubuntu? >>>> > >> >>>> > >> There were some issues with #cannotInterpret: and #run:with:in Â with >>>> > >> previous versions of Cog. However, with the last version Eliot' Cog all of >>>> > >> them are fixed >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Cheers, >>>> > >> Alexandre >>>> > >> -- >>>> > >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>> > >> Alexandre Bergel Â http://www.bergel.eu >>>> > >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> -- >>>> > >> Mariano >>>> > >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >>>> > >> >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>> > > Alexandre Bergel Â http://www.bergel.eu >>>> > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Lukas Renggli >>>> > www.lukas-renggli.ch >>>> >>>> -- >>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>> Alexandre Bergel Â http://www.bergel.eu >>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mariano >>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Jorge Ressia >> www.jorgeressia.com >> > > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 6, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo suffers internal Traffic Jams ...

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Guido, Interesting. On the subject of traffic, that simulation is not realistic :) First, you need the college kid in a $50k sport car (complete with lights underneath it, noise-enhancing exhaust and custom rims) talking on a cell phone instead of driving. You also need to add an old lady with her turn signal blinking for miles. Looking at other links, this one caught my eye: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=goVjVVaLe10 I was caught in a jam like they describe, but on a small scale. There is one thing they forgot to mention: people sitting a standstill at the front of the line of traffic and paying NO attention to when they might be able to make forward progress. You had to see this one to believe it - trust me. Back to software, EXCELLENT point about slow machines revealing defects. 50MHz might be overkill, but the point is well taken. This (and some of its links) might be of interest: http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2007-March/000850.html My guess is that the system itself should do very little based on time itself; things should happen based on events. Decisions about what is fast/slow or critical/nonnegotiable are probably best made at the application level. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Guido Stepken [gstepken(a)googlemail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 9:05 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: [Pharo-project] Pharo suffers internal Traffic Jams ... Hi guys! Please first first have a look at that simulation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmMY1nq_tgI Surprisingly the architecture of pharo looks very much this. Message sends, "information flow" through a dynamic ambience of "living objects" cause serious "hangs" Unpredictable traffic jams occurr, depending on load, e.g. Seaside, during GC, Image sync, subtile timeouts or countdows, waiting for resources to be freed, network timeouts, database lookups, e.t.c. Those can much easier be identified, when you downclock your machine to good old 50MHz of ancient times of squeak and develop/profile then. Design flows pretty soon become visible then, that are not visible when you proudly use always the newest Apple machine for development. >From advanced Software architects of a new old Smalltalk OS i expect to know about such dynamic phenomenons, having deep insight into analytically identifying such normally difficult to indentifying problems, that always should be part of TDD ... Tnx for reading and understanding. Have fun! Guido Stepken

Nov. 6, 2011