August 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Nicolas Cellier

2010/8/31 Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com>: > 2010/8/31 Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)elte.hu>: >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Nicolas Cellier wrote: >> >>> Hi Pharoers, >> >> snip >> >>> Come-on guys, despite Levente's cutting remark, you're not inferior to >>> squeakers ;) (and you don't have to answer to that stupid conclusion). >> >> Uh, what remark? >> > > Oh, you know, the missinterpreted _and_... (that's wall I call "lancer > une pique"). wall -> what, and I should go to bed, bye > I should have included you in the list of people not having to answer ;) > > Nicolas > >>> >>> Nicolas >>> >> >> snip >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ MartÃnez

El mar, 31-08-2010 a las 00:43 +0200, Levente Uzonyi escribiÃ³: > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ MartÃnez wrote: > > > El mar, 31-08-2010 a las 00:25 +0200, Levente Uzonyi escribiÃ³: > > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Friedrich Dominicus wrote: > > > > > Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)elte.hu> writes: > > > > > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > >>>> I suggest that the people that want and know, group together and build an open-source one. > > >>> > > >>> Why do you have to have your "own" library? > > >> > > >> Did I say "pharo library"? reread carefully I said an "open-source one". > > > > > > What I get from Andreas' words is that he's willing to make it open > > > source if it won't be forked. > > Hm I think this is impossible. If it's OS it's up to whomever get its > > hand on it. Or am I mistaken? > > > > > > Just think about GPL, it's open source, but you can't fork the code if you > > don't release your changes as GPL too. > > "I don't get it. If it is open source then is forkable. Period. > If it is a special case like GPL, it add some other restriction, like > you can't redistribute the new code without it being also GPL. You can > fork it and not using GPL for the new changes, the restriction is that > you can't redistribute it." > > From wikipedia: "Open-source software (OSS) is computer software that is > available in source code form for which the source code and certain other > rights normally reserved for copyright holders are provided under a > software license that permits users to study, change, and improve the > software." > > There's nothing about forking or redistributing here. I could make a > license that says: you can study, change and improve the software, but > you can't redistribute it without my permission. > > "But the fact remains that it is forkable always. If you don't want it > forkable, then use other non open source license." > > See above. You could "fork" it, but that wouldn't be open source anymore. > You must be kidding. The freedom to fork is a essential right of open source software: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10379280-16.html http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/wither-right-to-fork.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd http://www.opensource.org/node/357 period. > > Levente > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > Levente > > > > > > Regards > > Friedrich > > > > -- > > Q-Software Solutions GmbH; Sitz: Bruchsal; Registergericht: Mannheim > > Registriernummer: HRB232138; Geschaeftsfuehrer: Friedrich Dominicus > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > Miguel CobÃ¡ > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Nicolas Cellier

2010/8/31 Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)elte.hu>: > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > >> Hi Pharoers, > > snip > >> Come-on guys, despite Levente's cutting remark, you're not inferior to >> squeakers ;) (and you don't have to answer to that stupid conclusion). > > Uh, what remark? > Oh, you know, the missinterpreted _and_... (that's wall I call "lancer une pique"). I should have included you in the list of people not having to answer ;) Nicolas >> >> Nicolas >> > > snip > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Henrik Sperre Johansen

On 31.08.2010 00:34, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Henrik Johansen wrote: >> > > snip > >>> "MediumDoc is a pure ascii ByteString of size 4096" >>> [1 to: 100000 do: [:ix |MediumDoc >>> squeakToUtf8]] timeToRun 362 384 >>> [1 to: 100000 do: [:ix | MediumDoc >>> convertToEncoding: 'utf-8']] timeToRun 437 564 > > > And another with "SmallDoc": > > smallDoc := ByteString new: 20 streamContents: [ :stream | > 20 timesRepeat: [ stream nextPut: (Character value: 128 atRandom - > 1) ] ]. > (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | > [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | > smallDoc squeakToUtf8 ] ] timeToRun ]. > "===> #(15 15 15 15 15)" > (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | > [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | > smallDoc convertToWithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new ] ] > timeToRun ]. > "===> #(34 34 34 35 32)" > (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | > [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | > smallDoc convertToEncoding: 'utf-8' ] ] timeToRun ]. > "===> #(1256 1258 1259 1260 1260)" > > smallDoc := ByteString new: 20 streamContents: [ :stream | > 20 timesRepeat: [ stream nextPut: (Character value: 128 atRandom - > 1) ] ]. > smallDoc at: 10 put: (Character value: 129). > (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | > [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | > smallDoc squeakToUtf8 ] ] timeToRun ]. > "===> #(115 112 112 113 112)" > (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | > [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | > smallDoc convertToWithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new ] ] > timeToRun ]. > "===> #(157 125 124 126 125)" > (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | > [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | > smallDoc convertToEncoding: 'utf-8' ] ] timeToRun ]. > "===> #(1416 1419 1419 1429 1428)" > > > Levente Yeah, that's why I added the 200000 4KB docs / sec number. I really doubt the conversion will be a significant part of the processing time if what you send out is so small you are able to convert 800k messages per second... See the code I attached last mail, switching to convertToEncoding: 'utf8' sort of implied implementing something like that, which gives it nearly the same speed as convertToWithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new in your examples. IMHO, that might be a nice tradeoff between speed and the two desires of not bringing back #squeakToUtf8 in Pharo, nor having to use the convertToWithConverter: call Andreas was strongly opposed to (and which I agree is rather ugly). Cheers, Henry

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Levente Uzonyi

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > Hi Pharoers, snip > Come-on guys, despite Levente's cutting remark, you're not inferior to > squeakers ;) (and you don't have to answer to that stupid conclusion). Uh, what remark? > > Nicolas > snip

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Levente Uzonyi

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > GPL is designed to hold people (mostly commercial interests) hostage. Some of what is going on here sounds the same: it's open but not really. A web client is not so terribly difficult to write that we should compromise on licensing in order to use one. I have a *terribly* simple one that I can port if there is interest. IIRC, I used it to download some large files, but don't expect much. GPL was just an example for an open source license with restrictions, it has nothing to do with WebClient. Btw WebClient is far from simple (it's also a server, handles redirects, special responses, can support SSL, etc). Levente > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Levente Uzonyi [leves(a)elte.hu] > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:25 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final > > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Friedrich Dominicus wrote: > >> Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)elte.hu> writes: > >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>>>> >>>>> I suggest that the people that want and know, group together and build an open-source one. >>>> >>>> Why do you have to have your "own" library? >>> >>> Did I say "pharo library"? reread carefully I said an "open-source one". >> >> What I get from Andreas' words is that he's willing to make it open >> source if it won't be forked. > Hm I think this is impossible. If it's OS it's up to whomever get its > hand on it. Or am I mistaken? > > > Just think about GPL, it's open source, but you can't fork the code if you > don't release your changes as GPL too. > > > Levente > > > Regards > Friedrich > > -- > Q-Software Solutions GmbH; Sitz: Bruchsal; Registergericht: Mannheim > Registriernummer: HRB232138; Geschaeftsfuehrer: Friedrich Dominicus > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] return character magic?

by Henrik Sperre Johansen

On 30.08.2010 22:05, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > 2010/8/30 StÃ©phane Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> On Aug 30, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Johan Brichau wrote: >> >>> so what did you do? >>> >>> I see that the file got removed... I will submit a bug issue for that with the file attached. >>> >>> The *real* problem is that you cannot remove it either! It does _not_ want to go away! >> Oops! A bad spirit in pharo :) >> > Any person able to understand MultiDisplayScanner arcanes wouldn't see > any magic in this. But I really wonder whether a single person can > manage such complexity... Henrik ? > > Nicolas Hurr durr, I hate a challenge, can't really stop... In Pharo, the display primitive fails, and the fallback code does not deal correctly with the characterToGlyphMap used by StrikeFonts to store arrows at the normal ^_ spots, and substitute with characters at slots 128/129. In Squeak, the glyph-by-glyph rendering is encountered, and neither hasGlyphOf: nor glyphInfoInto: takes the map into account Attached is the fixed code for all three methods, should work in both Pharo and Squeak with these. (Issue 2886 on the Pharo tracker) Cheers, Henry

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Levente Uzonyi

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ MartÃnez wrote: > El mar, 31-08-2010 a las 00:25 +0200, Levente Uzonyi escribiÃ³: > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Friedrich Dominicus wrote: > > > Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)elte.hu> writes: > > > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > > >>>> > >>>> I suggest that the people that want and know, group together and build an open-source one. > >>> > >>> Why do you have to have your "own" library? > >> > >> Did I say "pharo library"? reread carefully I said an "open-source one". > > > > What I get from Andreas' words is that he's willing to make it open > > source if it won't be forked. > Hm I think this is impossible. If it's OS it's up to whomever get its > hand on it. Or am I mistaken? > > > Just think about GPL, it's open source, but you can't fork the code if you > don't release your changes as GPL too. "I don't get it. If it is open source then is forkable. Period. If it is a special case like GPL, it add some other restriction, like you can't redistribute the new code without it being also GPL. You can fork it and not using GPL for the new changes, the restriction is that you can't redistribute it." >From wikipedia: "Open-source software (OSS) is computer software that is available in source code form for which the source code and certain other rights normally reserved for copyright holders are provided under a software license that permits users to study, change, and improve the software." There's nothing about forking or redistributing here. I could make a license that says: you can study, change and improve the software, but you can't redistribute it without my permission. "But the fact remains that it is forkable always. If you don't want it forkable, then use other non open source license." See above. You could "fork" it, but that wouldn't be open source anymore. Levente Cheers > > > Levente > > > Regards > Friedrich > > -- > Q-Software Solutions GmbH; Sitz: Bruchsal; Registergericht: Mannheim > Registriernummer: HRB232138; Geschaeftsfuehrer: Friedrich Dominicus > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

GPL is designed to hold people (mostly commercial interests) hostage. Some of what is going on here sounds the same: it's open but not really. A web client is not so terribly difficult to write that we should compromise on licensing in order to use one. I have a *terribly* simple one that I can port if there is interest. IIRC, I used it to download some large files, but don't expect much. ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Levente Uzonyi [leves(a)elte.hu] Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:25 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Friedrich Dominicus wrote: > Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)elte.hu> writes: > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >>>> >>>> I suggest that the people that want and know, group together and build an open-source one. >>> >>> Why do you have to have your "own" library? >> >> Did I say "pharo library"? reread carefully I said an "open-source one". > > What I get from Andreas' words is that he's willing to make it open > source if it won't be forked. Hm I think this is impossible. If it's OS it's up to whomever get its hand on it. Or am I mistaken? Just think about GPL, it's open source, but you can't fork the code if you don't release your changes as GPL too. Levente Regards Friedrich -- Q-Software Solutions GmbH; Sitz: Bruchsal; Registergericht: Mannheim Registriernummer: HRB232138; Geschaeftsfuehrer: Friedrich Dominicus _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Levente Uzonyi

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Henrik Johansen wrote: > snip >> "MediumDoc is a pure ascii ByteString of size 4096" >> [1 to: 100000 do: [:ix |MediumDoc >> squeakToUtf8]] timeToRun 362 384 >> [1 to: 100000 do: [:ix | MediumDoc >> convertToEncoding: 'utf-8']] timeToRun 437 564 And another with "SmallDoc": smallDoc := ByteString new: 20 streamContents: [ :stream | 20 timesRepeat: [ stream nextPut: (Character value: 128 atRandom - 1) ] ]. (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | smallDoc squeakToUtf8 ] ] timeToRun ]. "===> #(15 15 15 15 15)" (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | smallDoc convertToWithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new ] ] timeToRun ]. "===> #(34 34 34 35 32)" (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | smallDoc convertToEncoding: 'utf-8' ] ] timeToRun ]. "===> #(1256 1258 1259 1260 1260)" smallDoc := ByteString new: 20 streamContents: [ :stream | 20 timesRepeat: [ stream nextPut: (Character value: 128 atRandom - 1) ] ]. smallDoc at: 10 put: (Character value: 129). (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | smallDoc squeakToUtf8 ] ] timeToRun ]. "===> #(115 112 112 113 112)" (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | smallDoc convertToWithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new ] ] timeToRun ]. "===> #(157 125 124 126 125)" (1 to: 5) collect: [ :run | [ 1 to: 100000 do: [ :ix | smallDoc convertToEncoding: 'utf-8' ] ] timeToRun ]. "===> #(1416 1419 1419 1429 1428)" Levente

Aug. 30, 2010