August 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

#[12 35] asInteger is not in 1.0, 1.1, and 1.2 It does not work in squeak trunk either did not work in 3.9 either. So I'm puzzled. Now everybody can create his own personal package with the extensions they like. Stef On Aug 23, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Gary Chambers wrote: > +1 > > One of our developers recently complained of #asInteger being removed from ByteArray for instance... > > Regards, Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Pinkney" <brent(a)zamail.co.za> > To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 8:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime > > >>> I would really like to have the approach proposed by K. Beck on conversion >>> methods. Conversion methods for API compatible objects. Of course it will >>> lead to less compact program (URL readFrom: 'http://' instead of 'http://' >>> url) but avoids a lot of code in String (of course class extensions limit >>> the plague). >> >> Hi, please reconsider this. There is just no way (Duration seconds: 3) is >> better than '3 seconds'. >> >> This smacks of working for the computer instead of the other way around. >> >> Brent >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes! I did not say anything the last time because I did not want to break the fun. > > > 2010/8/23 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> > > On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:40 AM, laurent laffont wrote: >> >> >> Indeed I don't like '2010/08/01' asTime, but I like 3 seconds. >> > > And I think the reason is the following: > > '2010/08/01' asTime > > this is just code... "string, you smalltalk object, please convert yourself into an object of another class that > you normally should know too much about". No reason why not to ask the Time class: hey, time, > I have a string, can you make a time for me? And it's even nicer... Time knows about time, string > about being a string. > > > Yes. So I think I should avoid to show 'http://www.google.com' asUrl in pharocasts...... > > > Laurent > > > > > BUT: > > 1 second + 3 hours > > This is different. This is a *domain specific language* for dealing with time. When you read that, you do > not think in term of general smalltalk code for coverting between classes. We are (kind of) outside of > our language model and the rules we normally follow do not apply. (e.g. there is no hour and second class...). > > Domain specific languages are powerful, and one can abuse them very easily. > (am guilty of having written once some awful DSL where even the *name* of a block > parameter had semantic meaning ;-) > > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

what is #[12 35] asInteger? Stef On Aug 23, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Gary Chambers wrote: > +1 > > One of our developers recently complained of #asInteger being removed from ByteArray for instance... > > Regards, Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Pinkney" <brent(a)zamail.co.za> > To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 8:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime > > >>> I would really like to have the approach proposed by K. Beck on conversion >>> methods. Conversion methods for API compatible objects. Of course it will >>> lead to less compact program (URL readFrom: 'http://' instead of 'http://' >>> url) but avoids a lot of code in String (of course class extensions limit >>> the plague). >> >> Hi, please reconsider this. There is just no way (Duration seconds: 3) is >> better than '3 seconds'. >> >> This smacks of working for the computer instead of the other way around. >> >> Brent >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime

by Gary Chambers

+1 One of our developers recently complained of #asInteger being removed from ByteArray for instance... Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Pinkney" <brent(a)zamail.co.za> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime >> I would really like to have the approach proposed by K. Beck on >> conversion >> methods. Conversion methods for API compatible objects. Of course it will >> lead to less compact program (URL readFrom: 'http://' instead of >> 'http://' >> url) but avoids a lot of code in String (of course class extensions limit >> the plague). > > Hi, please reconsider this. There is just no way (Duration seconds: 3) is > better than '3 seconds'. > > This smacks of working for the computer instead of the other way around. > > Brent > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime

by laurent laffont

2010/8/23 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> > > On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:40 AM, laurent laffont wrote: > > > > Indeed I don't like '2010/08/01' asTime, but I like 3 seconds. > > > And I think the reason is the following: > > '2010/08/01' asTime > > this is just code... "string, you smalltalk object, please convert yourself > into an object of another class that > you normally should know too much about". No reason why not to ask the Time > class: hey, time, > I have a string, can you make a time for me? And it's even nicer... Time > knows about time, string > about being a string. > Yes. So I think I should avoid to show 'http://www.google.com' asUrl in pharocasts...... Laurent > > BUT: > > 1 second + 3 hours > > This is different. This is a *domain specific language* for dealing with > time. When you read that, you do > not think in term of general smalltalk code for coverting between classes. > We are (kind of) outside of > our language model and the rules we normally follow do not apply. (e.g. > there is no hour and second class...). > > Domain specific languages are powerful, and one can abuse them very > easily. > (am guilty of having written once some awful DSL where even the *name* of a > block > parameter had semantic meaning ;-) > > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Aug. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] How can I load metacello without OB

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

can be a good solution mariano On Aug 23, 2010, at 10:43 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Gofer is the base class with which you can load everything else. So, why would it not make sense to have a utility method to load Metacello from Gofer? > > > Maybe. But maybe the applications wants to decide how or what to load from Metacello. For example, in ConfigurationOfPharo I may want to bootstrap the whole Metacello (UI, tutorial, tests, etc) because I want them all for PharoDev. Others may just want the core. Of course, we can make Gofer to load the core, and I can put all the rest of the Metacello dependencies in a baseline of ConfigurationOfPharo rather than in #ensureMetacello. But still, maybe there are other problems, like versions. Maybe in a particular Conf you want an specific version of Metacello, or an specific repo (I don't know why, but suppose). > > I think we can do a ensureMetacello delegated automatucally to gofer and to call it from ConfigurationOf. In addition, those who need special metacello packages or versions or whatever rather than the core (what will be done in Gofer), could be managed as any other dependency. > > Dale what do you think? > > Cheers > > Mariano > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > On 20 Aug 2010, at 23:17, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Indeed, now we could add this method in Gofer. > > > I didn't understand. Which method ? why in Gofer? > > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > On 20 Aug 2010, at 16:01, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 3:54 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > > The problem is in ConfigurationOfRPackage as in #ensureMetacello is like this: > > > > ensureMetacello > > Smalltalk at: #MetacelloProject ifAbsent: [ > > Gofer new > > disableRepositoryErrors; > > url: 'http://seaside.gemstone.com/ss/metacello'; > > package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; > > load. > > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) project latestVersion load: #('default' 'UI') ] > > I hate the fact that we should copy all the code around.... > what a crap. > > This was discussed several, severaaaaal times. As I remember the problem was that otherwise you class depends on a base class that should be included in the image you are working on. > But I guess we don't have problem to add such base class in PharoCore...if we have Gofer.. > > > > > > > > If you see, it is loading #('default' 'UI') of metacello..... UI -> OB. > > > > change that to #('default') and wala > > > > BTW, I would use the latest recommended #ensureMetacello: > > > > http://code.google.com/p/metacello/wiki/EnsureMetacello > > > > cheers > > > > mariano > > > > > > And stuck because OB does not load in 1.2 so I lost one hour...... boring. > > > > Stef > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Live like you mean it." > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every successful trip needs a suitable vehicle." > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] How can I load metacello without OB

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes this would be cool Stef On Aug 23, 2010, at 10:36 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Gofer is the base class with which you can load everything else. So, why would it not make sense to have a utility method to load Metacello from Gofer? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 20 Aug 2010, at 23:17, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Indeed, now we could add this method in Gofer. >> >> >> I didn't understand. Which method ? why in Gofer? >> >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> On 20 Aug 2010, at 16:01, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 3:54 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> > >> > The problem is in ConfigurationOfRPackage as in #ensureMetacello is like this: >> > >> > ensureMetacello >> > Smalltalk at: #MetacelloProject ifAbsent: [ >> > Gofer new >> > disableRepositoryErrors; >> > url: 'http://seaside.gemstone.com/ss/metacello'; >> > package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; >> > load. >> > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) project latestVersion load: #('default' 'UI') ] >> >> I hate the fact that we should copy all the code around.... >> what a crap. >> >> This was discussed several, severaaaaal times. As I remember the problem was that otherwise you class depends on a base class that should be included in the image you are working on. >> But I guess we don't have problem to add such base class in PharoCore...if we have Gofer.. >> >> >> > >> > >> > If you see, it is loading #('default' 'UI') of metacello..... UI -> OB. >> > >> > change that to #('default') and wala >> > >> > BTW, I would use the latest recommended #ensureMetacello: >> > >> > http://code.google.com/p/metacello/wiki/EnsureMetacello >> > >> > cheers >> > >> > mariano >> > >> > >> > And stuck because OB does not load in 1.2 so I lost one hour...... boring. >> > >> > Stef >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Pharo-project mailing list >> > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Pharo-project mailing list >> > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Live like you mean it." >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every successful trip needs a suitable vehicle." > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Yes! > On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Fernando olivero <fernando.olivero(a)usi.ch> wrote: > humm...I agree with Kent Beck and Stef, because conceptually a String shouldnt know how to answer #seconds. > > Maybe its a matter of having better interactions, smarter text morphs , than introducing this in the "model". > > > > maybe where are discussing what we prefer...if nice in words/language or better in OOP. > > For example, I may (not sure) agree Number understands #seconds. But I may think also that a better OOP would not Number understand #seconds but stead have Duration seconds: 3 > > But...'3 seconds' is nicer...it is more similar to our language. > > > What do you think of http://api.rubyonrails.org/classes/ActiveSupport/CoreExtensions/Numeric/Tim… ? > > Indeed I don't like '2010/08/01' asTime, but I like 3 seconds. > > Laurent > > > > > Fernando > > > On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Brent Pinkney wrote: > > >> I would really like to have the approach proposed by K. Beck on conversion > >> methods. Conversion methods for API compatible objects. Of course it will > >> lead to less compact program (URL readFrom: 'http://' instead of 'http://' > >> url) but avoids a lot of code in String (of course class extensions limit > >> the plague). > > > > Hi, please reconsider this. There is just no way (Duration seconds: 3) is > > better than '3 seconds'. > > > > This smacks of working for the computer instead of the other way around. > > > > Brent > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

3 seconds is indeed better. Right now we are talking about string over extension. Stef On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Brent Pinkney wrote: >> I would really like to have the approach proposed by K. Beck on conversion >> methods. Conversion methods for API compatible objects. Of course it will >> lead to less compact program (URL readFrom: 'http://' instead of 'http://' >> url) but avoids a lot of code in String (of course class extensions limit >> the plague). > > Hi, please reconsider this. There is just no way (Duration seconds: 3) is > better than '3 seconds'. > > This smacks of working for the computer instead of the other way around. > > Brent > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] 'foo' asTime

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:39 AM, Johan Brichau wrote: > > I agree that String>>asTime is an accident waiting to happen. It's not that much effort to use the following: Time readFromString: aString > > But there is a problem with the readFromString: method as well. > At the very least, if the string does not represent a valid time, it should throw an error. yes > > > On 23 Aug 2010, at 09:16, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Fernando olivero <fernando.olivero(a)usi.ch> wrote: >> humm...I agree with Kent Beck and Stef, because conceptually a String shouldnt know how to answer #seconds. >> >> Maybe its a matter of having better interactions, smarter text morphs , than introducing this in the "model". >> >> >> >> maybe where are discussing what we prefer...if nice in words/language or better in OOP. >> >> For example, I may (not sure) agree Number understands #seconds. But I may think also that a better OOP would not Number understand #seconds but stead have Duration seconds: 3 >> >> But...'3 seconds' is nicer...it is more similar to our language. >> >> >> Fernando >> >> >> On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Brent Pinkney wrote: >> >>>> I would really like to have the approach proposed by K. Beck on conversion >>>> methods. Conversion methods for API compatible objects. Of course it will >>>> lead to less compact program (URL readFrom: 'http://' instead of 'http://' >>>> url) but avoids a lot of code in String (of course class extensions limit >>>> the plague). >>> >>> Hi, please reconsider this. There is just no way (Duration seconds: 3) is >>> better than '3 seconds'. >>> >>> This smacks of working for the computer instead of the other way around. >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 23, 2010