August 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Aug 30, 2010, at 4:28 AM, Sudhakar Krishnamachari wrote: > > Good to see some of the concerns addressed. > > " > Now so far I do not see companies really putting effort so may be nothing will happen but this will not be > because of us. :)" > > > This is the chicken and egg situation. Bar highly motivated startups with some money in their pockets to splurge on with. The average co consists of average managers who want no risk..!. They want a technology they can blame for its shortcomings/ the support offered by another co if they are stuck for a fix. But in most ( I would say 90+% of timeline) cases the business continuity should not be affected. Sure this is clear. Now my point is pragmatic. > The average company will probably not invest their time on a technology if it does not meet the bar set by the current technology. Well lot of companies are using seaside and pharo and as such the fact that the infrastructure is getting better is important. > > Let me take Spring Architecture as an example in the Java world. J2EE was ( and to an extent is) entrenched in the world of Java enterprise. Way back about 8 yrs back or so .. Rod Johnson started his foray in to simplifying the complexity of J2EE with his framework. I would say through atleast 4+ yrs of the 8 he would have close to nil support from any company and like the Jim Collins "Good to Great" simile built up the giant wheel momentum now to engage nearly all known companies to use Spring all through instead of J2EE except in the niche cases. Its is an instruction to notice how Spring got interfaces to nearly all of Java connected that would be possibly needed for a medium enterprise case and then went into the depths/ specialization etc.. that is breadth first and then the depth. > > So I would say "WE" (including myself as a avowed Smaltalker) need to keep trying and pushing for a concerted go at getting Pharo up there.. and possibly the "GiantWheel momentum" will kick in with first a few co's and then more.. to push this rolling with god speed to its eventual greatness..!!.. welcome! > And that indeed is happening and its suprised me how far Pharo has already rolled and is building a momentum that is sure to go far if I can put my little effort as all others to get some of the minimal frameworks integrated. we need help > We have either of two approaches to take: meet up to the current bar set by Java/ .Net world in terms of programming baseline ( as I listed in the prior mail) or take a radical approach that differs so much and offers so much to pull in others..like Rails did. I would say if we are interested in the numbers game I would choose the former, if we wish to retain the intellectual high ground and move on the latter is fine.. we can have a vision, a vision without action does not exist. What we are doing are - providing robust infrastructure - making the system lean and clean - slowly rewriting parts now if people with other agendas want to focus on other parts we are more than happy. > > To get the numbers to have an interest in Pharo I will go back to my charter for Smalltalk spread in Universities / Colleges ( the underlying reason I started SmalltalkIndia) and see how far it can be resuscitated to create a mass base of users ( even if they are amateurs) and then hope a good percentage of them retain a greater interest to contribute spare time to improve the frameworks in Pharo. Would be great. Let me know how I can help Do you know I have free slides? http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/Resources/LecturesInPowerpoint/ > ************************* > Just count how many smalltalkers we can get in a low cost centers who can code.. well > Contrast this with how many Java programmers you can get.. can manage with google/ info base available > > Count the external frameworks open source developed , tested and trustable to be used in production code from Java nearly all free. > Count the same for Smalltalk > > App servers.. comparable to Websphere/ weblogic/ Tomcat / lots of others, not to mention messaging queue, transaction control , JDBC like framework for nearly all DBs with high performance guaranteed, the list goes on.. > > The support logistics in terms CMS: viz SVN kinds, better integration / build systems like maven etc.. and evolutions in terms of frameworks that Java has spewed.. .Net in its Visual Studio et als.. > > Good brains together can counter all of the above arguments, but that is a limitation by itself, you cannot get good 25-50brains in one premises to work together on one single product, even if you do have them you cannot easily replace them with new recruits and be cost effective in general. > > From an ease of development and risk free managment angle, I find this an impossible proposition to convince any mgmt to take up Smalltalk for their dev. > > The target is the average developer, the risk averse corporate entity in all its evolution whether its .Net or Java. > > For all the reasons above, corporate use of ST is a difficult game for niche languages like Smalltalk, but a target I would like to see achieved in the near term.. > > ********************************* > > -Skrish > > > On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Sudhakar Krishnamachari <skrishnamachari(a)gmail.com> wrote: > My two cents long time in my blog on exactly the same subject: > > -Skrish > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Sven and philippe I was wondering what was the license of your submissions to webClient. Because this will be also a problem. Either you totally give it to andreas and he can do what he wants with it, or you retain the right on the code and andreas has to decide what he will do with it. Since you can change the license of your code I imagine that andreas will not include any code if the code is not given to him. Funny situation. I think that it is even more confusing than with the old Squeak-L. Stef On Aug 30, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Andreas Raab wrote: > Hi Sven, > > [cc: pharo list since I think there are some larger issues to discuss] > > First of all thank you for your continued interest in WebClient. It is nice to see that people like to use it. However, I'm more than a bit surprised about what you are saying below about having WebClient in Pharo 1.2. Honestly, I was dumbfounded when I went to read some of the discussions on the Pharo list. > > May I ask what the due diligence process is for including packages in Pharo? I would have expected that the process includes 1) checking the project page on SS for the license and 2) sending the author a courtesy note along the lines of "hey we want to include your code, are you okay with that?" (in particular if the author of the package isn't on the Pharo list and consequently has no clue about what you're doing). > > 1. Regarding WebClient's license, please have a look at any of the following repositories, all of which are under MIT: > > http://www.squeaksource.com/Balloon3D.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/CroquetGL.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/ToolBuilder.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/TweakCore.html > ... etc ... > > As you can see, when I mean to put code under the MIT license, I try to state that by including a copy of the license on the front page of the repository as well as setting the license field. Contrary to, for example, the following repositories: > > http://www.squeaksource.com/ar.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/SqueakSSL.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/WebClient.html > > which are not (or not yet) under MIT. Obviously, I'm trying to be as clear as possible on these matters, which is why I was pointing out that your repository incorrectly claims that the version of WebClient in it is LGPLv2. I'm surprised (and shocked) that apparently nobody in Pharo even tries to find out what the license status for WebClient is. > > 2. Regarding my intentions / position you'll have to keep in mind that I don't read the Pharo list. I tried to follow it in the past only to be faced with several vicious attacks against Squeak and myself and as a consequence I stopped reading it. Consequently, this is the first time anyone has ever mentioned the inclusion of WebClient in Pharo to me. > > In short, my position is that we need more shared libraries, not more forks. You will probably see the irony that I specifically didn't set a license on WebClient to prevent such forks without any prior discussion (under the hopelessly naive assumption that there would be some sort of due diligence process) only to find out that you've forked WebClient already. How very ironic indeed. > > Because of my position above, I think WebClient should be an external package, loaded for example via Metacello configuration. In fact, that's exactly why I provided a Metacello configuration to begin with. Can someone perhaps explain where the urge to include (and consequently fork) WebClient comes from? WebClient is a perfectly good external package and for the time being I prefer it should stay that way. If you want to replace HTTPSocket, then have a look at Squeak 4.2 which contains a very simple HTTPSocket implementation that has hooks so that WebClient will be used if it's loaded. > > Regarding fixes for Pharo, as far as I know the only changes that I haven't included was a bunch of #asString sprinkled all over the places, and the abominations of replacing #squeakToUtf8 and #utf8ToSqueak with "convert[From|To]WithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new". On both of these issues I feel very strongly; I will not make the code substantially worse only to deal with shortcomings of Pharo. So if you cannot come to a reasonable resolution for these, you'll need the extension methods. Outside of that, I believe that not only have I integrated all the fixes that have been sent to me, I have also added several patches to WebClient-Pharo that provide important fixes for (in Pharo broken) network operations without which WebClient would not work in any released Pharo versions. > > Summary: > * I'm surprised and I'm shocked to see that there is apparently no due diligence regarding new packages in Pharo. I find this in particular shocking giving the wild claims on the Pharo web site that "From the beginning of Pharo we have maintained a strict rule that every contributor has to sign our license agreement." I haven't. (and geez, when did Michael got dropped from the Pharo board?) > > * I don't want WebClient to be included in Pharo since this means you will be producing a Pharo-only fork of WebClient which is counter-productive from my perspective. I want WebClient to remain a shared loadable package with a canonical source repository available to all forks of Squeak, including Pharo. > > * I have, and will continue to do so, integrate fixes for Pharo as long as I consider them reasonable. If there is interest, I can also provide an updated Metacello configuration; although that really just boils down to updating it to the latest package versions. > > Cheers, > - Andreas > > On 8/29/2010 4:43 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >> Andreas, >> >> The lastest fiddling that I did is now in PharoInBox: >> >> Name: WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.74 >> Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe >> Time: 27 August 2010, 1:59:46 pm >> UUID: d97ff218-9bde-4259-bf8a-f9d0fe116138 >> Ancestors: WebClient-Core-StephaneDucasse.73, WebClient-Core-pmm.73 >> >> merged in pharo-core 1.2 >> >> We're down to 2 unit test failures/errors againt your latest tests. >> >> A number of people including myself are interested, enthousiastic and willing to help bring WebClient to Pharo (1.1 and 1.2), and by using it, help it improve its core functionality. However, the current process, whereby you mostly ignore Pharo related fixes, makes that very difficult (we basically almost have to start over again with each commit you do, comparing changes becomes harder and harder). You can check the Pharo mailing lists. >> >> As I said before, it is your code and your decision what your standpoint is regarding portability (to Squeak derivatives and even other Smalltalks). I can understand it if you find it too much work. But I do think you should make it clear what your standpoint is. >> >> Regards, >> >> Sven >> >> On 29 Aug 2010, at 04:30, Andreas Raab wrote: >> >>> You're probably busy, so just a little "ping" :-) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> - Andreas >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: Re: WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final >>> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:40:07 -0700 >>> From: Andreas Raab<andreas.raab(a)gmx.de> >>> To: Sven Van Caekenberghe<sven(a)beta9.be> >>> >>> Hi Sven, >>> >>> Sorry for the belated reply I think something is wrong with Thunderbird >>> 3's spam filter; it appears that messages with attachments get routinely >>> marked as spam or something. In any case a message on Squeak-dev just >>> got me to look for lost email and yours was among them :-) >>> >>> Do you know if these changes are still applicable? There have been >>> numerous changes in the meantime in WebClient and haven't been paying >>> much attention. >>> >>> Oh, and one more thing. When I went to the project page at >>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ADayAtTheBeach.html it claims that "Code >>> commited to this repository will be automatically under LGPLv2 license." >>> >>> Obviously, this is not true for WebClient; could I ask you to change the >>> declaration on your repository or move your versions to some other >>> repository? The way it is right now people might rightfully assume that >>> the WebClient versions in your repository are under LGPLv2 which is >>> simply incorrect. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> - Andreas >>> >>> On 8/12/2010 1:59 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>>> Hi Andreas, >>>> >>>> I made some changes to the latest WebClient-Core in order to run it on Pharo 1.1: >>>> >>>> Sven Van Caekenberghe uploaded a new version of WebClient-Core to project A Day At The Beach: >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ADayAtTheBeach/WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberg… >>>> >>>> ==================== Summary ==================== >>>> >>>> Name: WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.63 >>>> Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe >>>> Time: 12 August 2010, 10:46:11 am >>>> UUID: 149d44b2-138b-4d63-a158-f587b2bd391d >>>> Ancestors: WebClient-Core-ar.62 >>>> >>>> added some more #asString's where needed to deal with the different semantics of #, in Squeak vs Pharo; removed usage of #and:and:and:and: with a composition of #and: in WebClient>>connect >>>> >>>> ================================================ >>>> >>>> I still have some tests that fail, but I can't find the problem: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 39 run, 34 passes, 0 expected failures, 0 failures, 5 errors, 0 unexpected passes >>>> Failures: >>>> >>>> Errors: >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testMultipartFiles >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testMultipartFiles2 >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testServerError >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testWebSockets >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testWebSocketsFraming >>>> >>>> The #testServerError bothers me most. >>>> >>>> I am posting this to a Pharo list as well so that maybe others can help. >>>> Maybe I'll find the problems myself later on. >>>> >>>> Sven >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi andreas 1- We talked a lot about Webclient used in the Pharo mailing-list and we were stupid to think that you read it. Luckily you did it at last. 2- I'm also surprised that nobody checked the license (me the first). Shit happens even with the best attitude. We are paying attention to contributor and we learned something today. 3- Philippe contacted you with fixes several times and got no reply, sven too so people thought that you do not want to talk to them. Apparently not so this is good. 4- We want to have a good web library in Pharo, so this will not webclient. I do not believe that this is good to build any software on libraries that have an unclear license. At least I would not do it just to avoid to get trap in it. 5- We will remove (by today) WebClient from Pharo. 6- Pharoers will have to decide and probably to build an open one under MIT. 6- Some people do not like that they cannot improve the code they see and use daily. 7- This is your right to criticize the code quality and design of Pharo, there is no problem with that. We have another point of view after the years we spent. Now they may be some little glitches and if you have precise feedback we are open to hear them. We are working working working and ... working on it and we are improving everyday -- may be too slowly. Stef > Hi Sven, > > [cc: pharo list since I think there are some larger issues to discuss] > > First of all thank you for your continued interest in WebClient. It is nice to see that people like to use it. However, I'm more than a bit surprised about what you are saying below about having WebClient in Pharo 1.2. Honestly, I was dumbfounded when I went to read some of the discussions on the Pharo list. > > May I ask what the due diligence process is for including packages in Pharo? I would have expected that the process includes 1) checking the project page on SS for the license and 2) sending the author a courtesy note along the lines of "hey we want to include your code, are you okay with that?" (in particular if the author of the package isn't on the Pharo list and consequently has no clue about what you're doing). > > 1. Regarding WebClient's license, please have a look at any of the following repositories, all of which are under MIT: > > http://www.squeaksource.com/Balloon3D.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/CroquetGL.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/ToolBuilder.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/TweakCore.html > ... etc ... > > As you can see, when I mean to put code under the MIT license, I try to state that by including a copy of the license on the front page of the repository as well as setting the license field. Contrary to, for example, the following repositories: > > http://www.squeaksource.com/ar.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/SqueakSSL.html > http://www.squeaksource.com/WebClient.html > > which are not (or not yet) under MIT. Obviously, I'm trying to be as clear as possible on these matters, which is why I was pointing out that your repository incorrectly claims that the version of WebClient in it is LGPLv2. I'm surprised (and shocked) that apparently nobody in Pharo even tries to find out what the license status for WebClient is. > > 2. Regarding my intentions / position you'll have to keep in mind that I don't read the Pharo list. I tried to follow it in the past only to be faced with several vicious attacks against Squeak and myself and as a consequence I stopped reading it. Consequently, this is the first time anyone has ever mentioned the inclusion of WebClient in Pharo to me. > In short, my position is that we need more shared libraries, not more forks. You will probably see the irony that I specifically didn't set a license on WebClient to prevent such forks without any prior discussion (under the hopelessly naive assumption that there would be some sort of due diligence process) only to find out that you've forked WebClient already. How very ironic indeed. > Because of my position above, I think WebClient should be an external package, loaded for example via Metacello configuration. In fact, that's exactly why I provided a Metacello configuration to begin with. Can someone perhaps explain where the urge to include (and consequently fork) WebClient comes from? WebClient is a perfectly good external package and for the time being I prefer it should stay that way. If you want to replace HTTPSocket, then have a look at Squeak 4.2 which contains a very simple HTTPSocket implementation that has hooks so that WebClient will be used if it's loaded. > > Regarding fixes for Pharo, as far as I know the only changes that I haven't included was a bunch of #asString sprinkled all over the places, and the abominations of replacing #squeakToUtf8 and #utf8ToSqueak with "convert[From|To]WithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new". On both of these issues I feel very strongly; I will not make the code substantially worse only to deal with shortcomings of Pharo. So if you cannot come to a reasonable resolution for these, you'll need the extension methods. Outside of that, I believe that not only have I integrated all the fixes that have been sent to me, I have also added several patches to WebClient-Pharo that provide important fixes for (in Pharo broken) network operations without which WebClient would not work in any released Pharo versions. > > Summary: > * I'm surprised and I'm shocked to see that there is apparently no due diligence regarding new packages in Pharo. I find this in particular shocking giving the wild claims on the Pharo web site that "From the beginning of Pharo we have maintained a strict rule that every contributor has to sign our license agreement." I haven't. (and geez, when did Michael got dropped from the Pharo board?) > > * I don't want WebClient to be included in Pharo since this means you will be producing a Pharo-only fork of WebClient which is counter-productive from my perspective. I want WebClient to remain a shared loadable package with a canonical source repository available to all forks of Squeak, including Pharo. > > * I have, and will continue to do so, integrate fixes for Pharo as long as I consider them reasonable. If there is interest, I can also provide an updated Metacello configuration; although that really just boils down to updating it to the latest package versions. > > Cheers, > - Andreas > > On 8/29/2010 4:43 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >> Andreas, >> >> The lastest fiddling that I did is now in PharoInBox: >> >> Name: WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.74 >> Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe >> Time: 27 August 2010, 1:59:46 pm >> UUID: d97ff218-9bde-4259-bf8a-f9d0fe116138 >> Ancestors: WebClient-Core-StephaneDucasse.73, WebClient-Core-pmm.73 >> >> merged in pharo-core 1.2 >> >> We're down to 2 unit test failures/errors againt your latest tests. >> >> A number of people including myself are interested, enthousiastic and willing to help bring WebClient to Pharo (1.1 and 1.2), and by using it, help it improve its core functionality. However, the current process, whereby you mostly ignore Pharo related fixes, makes that very difficult (we basically almost have to start over again with each commit you do, comparing changes becomes harder and harder). You can check the Pharo mailing lists. >> >> As I said before, it is your code and your decision what your standpoint is regarding portability (to Squeak derivatives and even other Smalltalks). I can understand it if you find it too much work. But I do think you should make it clear what your standpoint is. >> >> Regards, >> >> Sven >> >> On 29 Aug 2010, at 04:30, Andreas Raab wrote: >> >>> You're probably busy, so just a little "ping" :-) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> - Andreas >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: Re: WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final >>> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:40:07 -0700 >>> From: Andreas Raab<andreas.raab(a)gmx.de> >>> To: Sven Van Caekenberghe<sven(a)beta9.be> >>> >>> Hi Sven, >>> >>> Sorry for the belated reply I think something is wrong with Thunderbird >>> 3's spam filter; it appears that messages with attachments get routinely >>> marked as spam or something. In any case a message on Squeak-dev just >>> got me to look for lost email and yours was among them :-) >>> >>> Do you know if these changes are still applicable? There have been >>> numerous changes in the meantime in WebClient and haven't been paying >>> much attention. >>> >>> Oh, and one more thing. When I went to the project page at >>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ADayAtTheBeach.html it claims that "Code >>> commited to this repository will be automatically under LGPLv2 license." >>> >>> Obviously, this is not true for WebClient; could I ask you to change the >>> declaration on your repository or move your versions to some other >>> repository? The way it is right now people might rightfully assume that >>> the WebClient versions in your repository are under LGPLv2 which is >>> simply incorrect. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> - Andreas >>> >>> On 8/12/2010 1:59 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>>> Hi Andreas, >>>> >>>> I made some changes to the latest WebClient-Core in order to run it on Pharo 1.1: >>>> >>>> Sven Van Caekenberghe uploaded a new version of WebClient-Core to project A Day At The Beach: >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ADayAtTheBeach/WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberg… >>>> >>>> ==================== Summary ==================== >>>> >>>> Name: WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.63 >>>> Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe >>>> Time: 12 August 2010, 10:46:11 am >>>> UUID: 149d44b2-138b-4d63-a158-f587b2bd391d >>>> Ancestors: WebClient-Core-ar.62 >>>> >>>> added some more #asString's where needed to deal with the different semantics of #, in Squeak vs Pharo; removed usage of #and:and:and:and: with a composition of #and: in WebClient>>connect >>>> >>>> ================================================ >>>> >>>> I still have some tests that fail, but I can't find the problem: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 39 run, 34 passes, 0 expected failures, 0 failures, 5 errors, 0 unexpected passes >>>> Failures: >>>> >>>> Errors: >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testMultipartFiles >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testMultipartFiles2 >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testServerError >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testWebSockets >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testWebSocketsFraming >>>> >>>> The #testServerError bothers me most. >>>> >>>> I am posting this to a Pharo list as well so that maybe others can help. >>>> Maybe I'll find the problems myself later on. >>>> >>>> Sven >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] New bytecodes not in blue book ... (Eliot Miranda)

by Eliot Miranda

Hi James, perhaps you could use the implementations of ContextPart pushRemoteTemp:inVectorAt: popIntoRemoteTemp:inVectorAt: storeIntoRemoteTemp:inVectorAt: (& Interpreter pushRemoteTemp:inVectorAt: popIntoRemoteTemp:inVectorAt: if you have them to hand) as the spec and check the documentation. The intent is that k..k is the index of the temp containing the remote vector and j..j is the index in the remote temp vector. cheers Eliot 2010/8/29 James Ladd <james_ladd(a)hotmail.com> > Thanks Eliot. Your linked article clears it up: > http://www.mirandabanda.org/cogblog/2008/07/22/closures-part-ii-the-bytecod… > > 140 10001100 kkkkkkkk jjjjjjjj Push Temp At > kkkkkkkk In Temp Vector At: jjjjjjjj This fetches the local at offset j..j > on the stack and push the k..kâth element in it. > The next two store into the k..kâth element of the local at j..j, one > version popping the result off the stack. This is a general convention in > the Smalltalk-80 compiler. These are store and store-pop forms of almost > every store opcode. The store form is used in the stores into vat and vax in > things like > var := vat := vax := expr > whereas the pop form gets used in the store into var. > 141 10001101 kkkkkkkk jjjjjjjj Store Temp > At kkkkkkkk In Temp Vector At: jjjjjjjj > 142 10001110 kkkkkkkk jjjjjjjj Pop and > Store Temp At kkkkkkkk In Temp Vector At: jjjjjjjj > The final bytecode is more interesting. > > The wording is unclear to me: "This fetches the local at offset j..j on the > stack and push the k..kâth element in it." > > Does it mean, get local at index j..j and push onto the stack the k..k'th > element in it? > > So > > 109 <8C 00 01> pushTemp: 0 inVectorAt: 1 > > Get temp at 1 (j..j) and push element at 0 (k..k) ?? > > 97 <8E 00 01> popIntoTemp: 0 inVectorAt: 1 > > get vector at temp index 1 (j..j) and pop and store stack value into element 0 (k..k) ?? > > 116 <8D 00 01> storeIntoTemp: 0 inVectorAt: 1 > > I dont understand this one, store what? into element 0 of vector at 1 ?? > > In the pop variation I can understand where the value is coming from, but not the above > form. Please can you clarify? > > Rgs, James. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business

by Sudhakar Krishnamachari

Good to see some of the concerns addressed. " Now so far I do not see companies really putting effort so may be nothing will happen but this will not be because of us. :)" This is the chicken and egg situation. Bar highly motivated startups with some money in their pockets to splurge on with. The average co consists of average managers who want no risk..!. They want a technology they can blame for its shortcomings/ the support offered by another co if they are stuck for a fix. But in most ( I would say 90+% of timeline) cases the business continuity should not be affected. The average company will probably not invest their time on a technology if it does not meet the bar set by the current technology. Let me take Spring Architecture as an example in the Java world. J2EE was ( and to an extent is) entrenched in the world of Java enterprise. Way back about 8 yrs back or so .. Rod Johnson started his foray in to simplifying the complexity of J2EE with his framework. I would say through atleast 4+ yrs of the 8 he would have close to nil support from any company and like the Jim Collins "Good to Great" simile built up the giant wheel momentum now to engage nearly all known companies to use Spring all through instead of J2EE except in the niche cases. Its is an instruction to notice how Spring got interfaces to nearly all of Java connected that would be possibly needed for a medium enterprise case and then went into the depths/ specialization etc.. that is breadth first and then the depth. So I would say "WE" (including myself as a avowed Smaltalker) need to keep trying and pushing for a concerted go at getting Pharo up there.. and possibly the "GiantWheel momentum" will kick in with first a few co's and then more.. to push this rolling with god speed to its eventual greatness..!!.. And that indeed is happening and its suprised me how far Pharo has already rolled and is building a momentum that is sure to go far if I can put my little effort as all others to get some of the minimal frameworks integrated. We have either of two approaches to take: meet up to the current bar set by Java/ .Net world in terms of programming baseline ( as I listed in the prior mail) or take a radical approach that differs so much and offers so much to pull in others..like Rails did. I would say if we are interested in the numbers game I would choose the former, if we wish to retain the intellectual high ground and move on the latter is fine.. To get the numbers to have an interest in Pharo I will go back to my charter for Smalltalk spread in Universities / Colleges ( the underlying reason I started SmalltalkIndia) and see how far it can be resuscitated to create a mass base of users ( even if they are amateurs) and then hope a good percentage of them retain a greater interest to contribute spare time to improve the frameworks in Pharo. ************************* Just count how many smalltalkers we can get in a low cost centers who can code.. well Contrast this with how many Java programmers you can get.. can manage with google/ info base available Count the external frameworks open source developed , tested and trustable to be used in production code from Java nearly all free. Count the same for Smalltalk App servers.. comparable to Websphere/ weblogic/ Tomcat / lots of others, not to mention messaging queue, transaction control , JDBC like framework for nearly all DBs with high performance guaranteed, the list goes on.. The support logistics in terms CMS: viz SVN kinds, better integration / build systems like maven etc.. and evolutions in terms of frameworks that Java has spewed.. .Net in its Visual Studio et als.. Good brains together can counter all of the above arguments, but that is a limitation by itself, you cannot get good 25-50brains in one premises to work together on one single product, even if you do have them you cannot easily replace them with new recruits and be cost effective in general. From an ease of development and risk free managment angle, I find this an impossible proposition to convince any mgmt to take up Smalltalk for their dev. The target is the average developer, the risk averse corporate entity in all its evolution whether its .Net or Java. For all the reasons above, corporate use of ST is a difficult game for niche languages like Smalltalk, but a target I would like to see achieved in the near term.. ********************************* -Skrish On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Sudhakar Krishnamachari < skrishnamachari(a)gmail.com> wrote: > My two cents long time in my blog on exactly the same subject: > > -Skrish > > >

Aug. 30, 2010

[Pharo-project] MethodName

by Benjamin Van Ryseghem

Hello everyone As you may already known, I'm working on a new tool named MethodName which is the merge of MethodFinder and MessagesName with some cool improvement :) It works on Pharo1.2 - 12109 because it needs NullTextStyler ( Gofer new squeaksource: 'PharoTaskForces'; package: 'NullTextStyler'; load.) You can download the sources by evaluating this : Gofer new squeaksource: 'PharoTaskForces'; package: 'MethodName'; load. For opening a new MethodName window there's two ways : - evaluate : MethodName new openInWorld. - click World >> Tools >> Method Name How it works : - You choose thank to the radio button where you want to search (Selectors / Class names/ Source) - You type the text you want to search : + Source : 1) *string or string or string* or *string* -> it answers all the methods which source contains string 2) begin*end -> it answers all the methods which source contains begin(whatever)end. + Class names : 1) name -> it answers the class which the name is name 2) name* / *name / *name* / begin*end ... -> * replaces any string. + Selectors: 1) the same behaviour that for class names 2) the behaviour of MethodFinder Moreover you can reduce the field of search by clicking on "Change environment" which open a PackageChooser window. A PackageChooser let you choose the set of classes which will be browsed during the search. The left list shows all the available packages and the right list shows the already selected packages. To add packages, just select them then click ">" to add them or click ">>" to select all the packages. It's the same to remove packages. Instead of browsing tons of packages in the goal of finding the one you want, you can use the text field to enter the name of the package or a part of the name using some *. When all the packages are selected, just click "Ok" :) I hope it's a bit clear and a bit useful ^^ Benjamin

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] this style looks cool

by Tudor Girba

That would be cool. Cheers, Doru On 30 Aug 2010, at 00:55, ja(a)anymorphic.com wrote: > Tudor Girba <tudor.girba@...> writes: > > >> Is this Theme available? > > I can push the change monday morning. > ja > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow."

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] this style looks cool

by Tudor Girba

Hi Bill, As I said, all you have to do is to override #browserIcon on the class side of your class to return a symbol that corresponds to a method in OBMorphicIcons. Please look at the implementors of #browserIcon. For example: Announcement class>>browserIcon ^ #announcement OBMorphicIcons>>announcement ^ ((ColorForm extent: 12@12 depth: 8 fromArray: ... Cheers, Doru On 30 Aug 2010, at 00:02, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Doru, > > That gets me a step closer to understanding them, but all I see so > far are symbols. #browserIcon:selector: is getting complicated. > Dolphin's sending #icon to classes being displayed a lot more clear, > although I suspect some of the complexity in OB is to allow things > like the success/failure icons in test cases - I'm not sure whether > Dolphin has an answer to that?? > > What are the icon choices, and how would I add to them? > > Bill > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba [tudor.girba(a)gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 2:48 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] this style looks cool > > Hi Bill, > > The icons are available the OB browser by overriding #browserIcon. > > Some of the icons that you see are shipped with Seaside. The blueish > bubble denotes an announcement and is already present in Pharo. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 29 Aug 2010, at 20:43, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Stef, >> >> The first thing I notice in it is background colors, or is it just >> variation in backlighting on my monitor? Have we evolved to the >> point that background colors can be readily set? Last I looked into >> it, there was mention of a background style that I could never find. >> >> Another thing is that a large fraction of the classes have icons >> associated with them. Dolphin makes that easy to do: just implement >> a class-side #icon, which I always did in terms of a rich set of >> class icons present in the base system, so I never had to mess with >> the details. It would be nice if it were that easy in Pharo; when >> well designed, such icons can aid perception. Since I constantly >> praise Dolphin, I will point out that D6's use of apples for most >> classes was not the best choice. It was visually grating and lead >> to a rather unprofessional look in a deployed executable where I had >> previously never given a second thought when the default icon was a >> dot. A rich (and expendable) set of clean icons for collections/ >> composites, views, plugs/sockets, various metaphors that are easy to >> associate with one's own classes would be helpful. >> >> This might be similar to Dolphin's ability to apply multiple >> categories to a method: you won't miss it if you have never had >> access to it, but it is a *good* thing to have. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> ] On Behalf Of stephane ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr] >> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 2:17 PM >> To: Pharo Development >> Subject: [Pharo-project] this style looks cool >> >> http://www.anymorphic.com/softwareentwicklung.html >> >> Stef >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "From an abstract enough point of view, any two things are similar." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com "Problem solving efficiency grows with the abstractness level of problem understanding."

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Experimental Cocoa OS-X based Squeak Cog JIT VM 5.8b4.

by Tudor Girba

Ok, let me explain better. On 4.2.x (Mac OS X 10.5.8): - ctrl+arrow = jump between words - ctrl+shift+arrow = select up to the next word On 5.8 (Mac OS X 10.5.8): - ctrl+arrow = nothing happens - ctrl+shift+arrow = nothing happens I only mentioned regular Mac widgets for reference. Cheers, Doru On 29 Aug 2010, at 23:16, John M McIntosh wrote: > Ok, you are mixing two issues here > > (a) I need to make the 5.8 behaviour the same as the 4.2.x VM > behaviour. > > (b) Once we have the same behaviour then you are welcome to propose > changing the smalltalk text editor code to make the cursor and word > selection dance however you or the community would like it to... > > > On 2010-08-29, at 11:55 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Ahh, I see. >> >> I expect it to jump between words. On regular Mac applications, you >> get this behavior by pressing alt-arrow. >> >> And when I press shift-ctrl-arrow, I expect it to select up to the >> end of the word. On regular Mac applications, you get this behavior >> by pressing alt-shift-arrow. >> >> Of course, I would not mind if instead of ctrl we would have alt :). >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> > > -- > = > = > = > = > = > ====================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: > squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http:// > www.smalltalkconsulting.com > = > = > = > = > = > ====================================================================== > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] OSProcess - can it pipe 1 MB?

by David T. Lewis

Bill, I think that you should be able to design a reasonable loop with a delay to provide the needed flow control without modifying the underlying #primWrite:from:startingAt:count: semantics. That is exactly what I think you should do in this case. Be pragmatic about it; break your 1MB data into digestible pieces, set the pipe writer to be nonblocking, and loop with a delay until the whole thing gets digested by whatever is reading it on the other end of the pipe. HTH, Dave On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 03:47:18PM -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Dave, > > Why does > > primWrite: id from: stringOrByteArray startingAt: startIndex count: count > "Write count bytes onto this file from the given string or byte array starting at the given index. Answer the number of bytes written." > > raise an error? Perhaps it or a related method should answer the number of bytes written. There should be a compromise between locking up the VM and having no idea how quickly the other side can accept data. Given a count of what was written (as suggested in the comment, and perhaps zero bytes if the other side is struggling), then one could design a reasonable loop with a delay to provide the needed flow control. Otherwise, it's just guesswork. > > Bill > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of David T. Lewis [lewis(a)mail.msen.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 3:05 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] OSProcess - can it pipe 1 MB? > > It does not belong in OSProcess unless it's something that the underlying > operating system actually supports, which is not the case here. As far > as I know, there is no Unix system call for determining how much data a > pipe is ready to accept. > > You'll need to manage your flow control yourself. You may also need to > call #setNonBlocking on the pipe writer, otherwise you can block on > write and lock up the virtual machine(I think you know that already but > just in case). If the process at the other end of your pipe is keeping > up with the data, it won't be a problem, but if you try to write to a > full pipe without pulling something out of the other end, you will lock > up your VM completely unless the stream has been set to non-blocking > mode. > > Dave > > On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 02:28:50PM -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > > Dave, > > > > Sure, but then the command shell must then be doing something that OSProcess should do: transfer "large" (1MB isn't much these days) blobs in pieces that are manageable. The questions are where does it belong, and what if anything is necessary to ensure the pipe is ready for the next piece? > > > > One thought would be > > > > AttachableFileStream>>nextPutAll:blob > > | in | > > in := ReadStream on:blob. > > [ in atEnd ] whileFalse:[ > > self nextPutAll:( in next:32000). > > ]. > > > > but it should run into the same problem after a few times through the loop. It needs some "flow control" and could easily belong elsewhere in the hierarch?? The above assumes the (should be changed) silent truncation of #next:. > > > > Bill > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of David T. Lewis [lewis(a)mail.msen.com] > > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 12:37 PM > > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] OSProcess - can it pipe 1 MB? > > > > On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 11:36:02AM -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > > > I am trying to pipe roughly 1 MB of data into a program on Linux; I know it can handle the load, because I have tested it with by cat-ing a script and the data. I do not yet promise that my Pharo code is correct; if the program did not respond or returned junk, I would look to myself. But I am getting errors suggesting that AttachableFileStream is failing on writing to the pipe, and it's very suspicious that it simply can't handle the size of the string. Any ideas? > > > > > > Bill > > > > Try googling "maximum size of write to linux pipe". Unix pipes > > have a capacity limit, and the write will fail if you try to write > > too large a chunk all at once. > > > > Dave > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 30, 2010