August 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] squeaksource no license is dangerous

by Lukas Renggli

>>after get burned during some years about the license of Squeak. >>What do you think to force people to put a license on projects on squeaksource? >>I have the impression that it would avoid bad situation in the future. >>Even if I could live with it like it is too. This is just that we just wait to get bitten... The problem is that there are thousands of projects without a license. Additionally, since the "License" field was added to SqueakSource relatively late it cannot be easily added anymore. > There is an HTML parser on SS with a non-compete clause in its license. There are many other projects on SS that either have no explicit license or are licensed in a non-OSI-approved manner. I have thought of complaining in the past, but nowhere on SS (at least nowhere I could find) does it say that code uploaded to it must be open source; in fact, the site doesn't seem to even mention "open source" at all. If SS is supposed to be the Google Code or Source Forge of the Smalltalk community, only accepting open source code, it should be upfront about it; likewise if it is open to all Smalltalk code, including proprietary. SqueakSource is more like GitHub. There are various commercial and proprietary projects hosted there, some of them you can't even see as you lack the required permissions. There is no need for code to be open source to store it on SqueakSource. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Lukas Renggli

>> We want a library where people can participate. Now Pharoers will decide, >> I think that we do not have problem >> with sharing on WebClient. I can understand that people do not like that >> they cannot improve an infrastructure >> that they will rely upon. We do not want string to number conversion, and >> rely on squeakToUtf. > > I think Andreas solved these issues with the WebClient-Pharo package, but I > may be wrong. What WebClient-Pharo does is to patch (and break) Pharo in the most absurd ways to make it ill-behaved like Squeak. For example, check out the implementation of String>>#,. Philippe (an expert in writing platform independent code) and Sven have fixed all these issues so that the code works flawlessly on both platforms, Squeak and Pharo. > Well, we are about to use it for Seaside. It scales a lot better than Kom. > Cog can't really speed up Kom (based on our benchmarks done with JMeter)*, > probably because of the heavy use of notifications (DynamicBindings), but it > can boost WebClient significantly. Kom is not ideal, we all know that (thanks for sharing the benchmarks). However, the current licensing situation of WebClient makes it totally useless for me and presumably many other people. Luckily there are many other options. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Magnitude should be reimplemented as a Trait

by jaayer

---- On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 03:32:18 -0700 StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote ---- >+1 >So this is ok :) >What I would love in my wildest dream is to have magnitude using TComparable :) >But this may be too complex. >I would like to have the time to check how we can make trait implementation leaner, smaller..... > >Stef Actually, if you change Magnitude's class definition to this: Object subclass: #Magnitude uses: TComparable instanceVariableNames: '' classVariableNames: '' poolDictionaries: '' category: 'Kernel-Numbers' and then manually remove its "comparing" and "testing" messages, everything seems to work. (Same number of passed/failed tests in "KernelTests-Numbers" as before ) But I could see this potentially causing build issues. Also, Magnitude's "testing" messages, despite what their category name implies, do not return booleans; instead they return other Magnitudes. I have recategorized those messages (#min:, #max:, and #min:max:) in TComparable under "comparing" in the attached fileout.

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] squeaksource no license is dangerous

by jaayer

---- On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 03:35:28 -0700 StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote ---- >hi guys > >after get burned during some years about the license of Squeak. >What do you think to force people to put a license on projects on squeaksource? >I have the impression that it would avoid bad situation in the future. >Even if I could live with it like it is too. This is just that we just wait to get bitten... There is an HTML parser on SS with a non-compete clause in its license. There are many other projects on SS that either have no explicit license or are licensed in a non-OSI-approved manner. I have thought of complaining in the past, but nowhere on SS (at least nowhere I could find) does it say that code uploaded to it must be open source; in fact, the site doesn't seem to even mention "open source" at all. If SS is supposed to be the Google Code or Source Forge of the Smalltalk community, only accepting open source code, it should be upfront about it; likewise if it is open to all Smalltalk code, including proprietary.

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by Levente Uzonyi

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>> I suggest that the people that want and know, group together and build an open-source one. >> >> Why do you have to have your "own" library? > > Did I say "pharo library"? reread carefully I said an "open-source one". What I get from Andreas' words is that he's willing to make it open source if it won't be forked. > This is not our own library, this is a library we can contribute, control.... You can contribute to WebClient, but you don't have full control, just like any external packages. > We do not want to be in the situation that somebody can change the license under our feet. > We want a library where people can participate. Now Pharoers will decide, I think that we do not have problem > with sharing on WebClient. I can understand that people do not like that they cannot improve an infrastructure > that they will rely upon. We do not want string to number conversion, and rely on squeakToUtf. I think Andreas solved these issues with the WebClient-Pharo package, but I may be wrong. > > Now I was not even aware of the ConfigurationOfWebClient. There is none in the squeaksource repository. It's in MetacelloRepository. > So how can we guess? I'm not reading squeak-dev and no idea that there is even somebody using metacello. Well, Squeak users also use Metacello. Dale is kind enough to maintain Metacello configurations for Squeak too. > >> What's wrong with one that could be shared by all Squeak forks? > > We do not have problem with sharing. You can take anything you like from Pharo. > > Seaside, Magritte, Pier, RB,.... are all MIT > OB is MIT and lukas pushed it a lot recently for everybody. > Moose is BSD, MIT, > Glamour, Mondrian MIT > ... > and I'm sure that they are more. :) > they are all external projects. > > We discussed on the mailing-list what to do and people thought that it would be good to get > in included it. Probably we missed the point that we just need SocketStream to load the rest. I'm dull but learning > everyday. For me I just cannot stand HTTPSocket and the network package so anything is better. > > But may be it was a mistake. Note that I hope that squeakers will not bash us as the guys that want to > play it alone because this is not the case, but people can bash us if this helps them to feel good. Pharo is there for that too ;D. > WebClient was the perfect case for sharing but Andreas decided differently. I think he didn't decide yet, but prove me wrong. > > Now > - since the license is unclear > - since the license of the contributors is unclear > we will not use it as an infrastructural assets for Pharo. I imagine that Seaside will not use it either. Well, we are about to use it for Seaside. It scales a lot better than Kom. Cog can't really speed up Kom (based on our benchmarks done with JMeter)*, probably because of the heavy use of notifications (DynamicBindings), but it can boost WebClient significantly. Levente *The benchmark is done with 50 concurrent "users", clicking the counter example as fast as they can: Label Throughput (kB/s) Average response time (ms) Squeak-Kom 69.53 690 Squeak-WebClient 105.46 447 Cog-Squeak-Kom 74.54 617 Cog-Squeak-WebClient 226.80 193 I didn't include the Pharo results, because when we did the benchmark, there was no Cog support for Pharo. The max response time for Cog-Squeak-WebClient (575ms) was less than the average of Cog-Squeak-Kom. > > > Stef > > >> Levente >> >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 30, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Andreas Raab wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Sven, >>>> >>>> [cc: pharo list since I think there are some larger issues to discuss] >>>> >>>> First of all thank you for your continued interest in WebClient. It is nice to see that people like to use it. However, I'm more than a bit surprised about what you are saying below about having WebClient in Pharo 1.2. Honestly, I was dumbfounded when I went to read some of the discussions on the Pharo list. >>>> >>>> May I ask what the due diligence process is for including packages in Pharo? I would have expected that the process includes 1) checking the project page on SS for the license and 2) sending the author a courtesy note along the lines of "hey we want to include your code, are you okay with that?" (in particular if the author of the package isn't on the Pharo list and consequently has no clue about what you're doing). >>>> >>>> 1. Regarding WebClient's license, please have a look at any of the following repositories, all of which are under MIT: >>>> >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/Balloon3D.html >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/CroquetGL.html >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ToolBuilder.html >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/TweakCore.html >>>> ... etc ... >>>> >>>> As you can see, when I mean to put code under the MIT license, I try to state that by including a copy of the license on the front page of the repository as well as setting the license field. Contrary to, for example, the following repositories: >>>> >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ar.html >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/SqueakSSL.html >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/WebClient.html >>>> >>>> which are not (or not yet) under MIT. Obviously, I'm trying to be as clear as possible on these matters, which is why I was pointing out that your repository incorrectly claims that the version of WebClient in it is LGPLv2. I'm surprised (and shocked) that apparently nobody in Pharo even tries to find out what the license status for WebClient is. >>>> >>>> 2. Regarding my intentions / position you'll have to keep in mind that I don't read the Pharo list. I tried to follow it in the past only to be faced with several vicious attacks against Squeak and myself and as a consequence I stopped reading it. Consequently, this is the first time anyone has ever mentioned the inclusion of WebClient in Pharo to me. >>>> >>>> In short, my position is that we need more shared libraries, not more forks. You will probably see the irony that I specifically didn't set a license on WebClient to prevent such forks without any prior discussion (under the hopelessly naive assumption that there would be some sort of due diligence process) only to find out that you've forked WebClient already. How very ironic indeed. >>>> >>>> Because of my position above, I think WebClient should be an external package, loaded for example via Metacello configuration. In fact, that's exactly why I provided a Metacello configuration to begin with. Can someone perhaps explain where the urge to include (and consequently fork) WebClient comes from? WebClient is a perfectly good external package and for the time being I prefer it should stay that way. If you want to replace HTTPSocket, then have a look at Squeak 4.2 which contains a very simple HTTPSocket implementation that has hooks so that WebClient will be used if it's loaded. >>>> >>>> Regarding fixes for Pharo, as far as I know the only changes that I haven't included was a bunch of #asString sprinkled all over the places, and the abominations of replacing #squeakToUtf8 and #utf8ToSqueak with "convert[From|To]WithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new". On both of these issues I feel very strongly; I will not make the code substantially worse only to deal with shortcomings of Pharo. So if you cannot come to a reasonable resolution for these, you'll need the extension methods. Outside of that, I believe that not only have I integrated all the fixes that have been sent to me, I have also added several patches to WebClient-Pharo that provide important fixes for (in Pharo broken) network operations without which WebClient would not work in any released Pharo versions. >>>> >>>> Summary: >>>> * I'm surprised and I'm shocked to see that there is apparently no due diligence regarding new packages in Pharo. I find this in particular shocking giving the wild claims on the Pharo web site that "From the beginning of Pharo we have maintained a strict rule that every contributor has to sign our license agreement." I haven't. (and geez, when did Michael got dropped from the Pharo board?) >>>> >>>> * I don't want WebClient to be included in Pharo since this means you will be producing a Pharo-only fork of WebClient which is counter-productive from my perspective. I want WebClient to remain a shared loadable package with a canonical source repository available to all forks of Squeak, including Pharo. >>>> >>>> * I have, and will continue to do so, integrate fixes for Pharo as long as I consider them reasonable. If there is interest, I can also provide an updated Metacello configuration; although that really just boils down to updating it to the latest package versions. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> - Andreas >>>> >>>> On 8/29/2010 4:43 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>>>> Andreas, >>>>> >>>>> The lastest fiddling that I did is now in PharoInBox: >>>>> >>>>> Name: WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.74 >>>>> Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe >>>>> Time: 27 August 2010, 1:59:46 pm >>>>> UUID: d97ff218-9bde-4259-bf8a-f9d0fe116138 >>>>> Ancestors: WebClient-Core-StephaneDucasse.73, WebClient-Core-pmm.73 >>>>> >>>>> merged in pharo-core 1.2 >>>>> >>>>> We're down to 2 unit test failures/errors againt your latest tests. >>>>> >>>>> A number of people including myself are interested, enthousiastic and willing to help bring WebClient to Pharo (1.1 and 1.2), and by using it, help it improve its core functionality. However, the current process, whereby you mostly ignore Pharo related fixes, makes that very difficult (we basically almost have to start over again with each commit you do, comparing changes becomes harder and harder). You can check the Pharo mailing lists. >>>>> >>>>> As I said before, it is your code and your decision what your standpoint is regarding portability (to Squeak derivatives and even other Smalltalks). I can understand it if you find it too much work. But I do think you should make it clear what your standpoint is. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Sven >>>>> >>>>> On 29 Aug 2010, at 04:30, Andreas Raab wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> You're probably busy, so just a little "ping" :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> - Andreas >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>> Subject: Re: WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final >>>>>> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:40:07 -0700 >>>>>> From: Andreas Raab<andreas.raab(a)gmx.de> >>>>>> To: Sven Van Caekenberghe<sven(a)beta9.be> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Sven, >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry for the belated reply I think something is wrong with Thunderbird >>>>>> 3's spam filter; it appears that messages with attachments get routinely >>>>>> marked as spam or something. In any case a message on Squeak-dev just >>>>>> got me to look for lost email and yours was among them :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you know if these changes are still applicable? There have been >>>>>> numerous changes in the meantime in WebClient and haven't been paying >>>>>> much attention. >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh, and one more thing. When I went to the project page at >>>>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ADayAtTheBeach.html it claims that "Code >>>>>> commited to this repository will be automatically under LGPLv2 license." >>>>>> >>>>>> Obviously, this is not true for WebClient; could I ask you to change the >>>>>> declaration on your repository or move your versions to some other >>>>>> repository? The way it is right now people might rightfully assume that >>>>>> the WebClient versions in your repository are under LGPLv2 which is >>>>>> simply incorrect. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> - Andreas >>>>>> >>>>>> On 8/12/2010 1:59 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Andreas, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I made some changes to the latest WebClient-Core in order to run it on Pharo 1.1: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sven Van Caekenberghe uploaded a new version of WebClient-Core to project A Day At The Beach: >>>>>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ADayAtTheBeach/WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberg… >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ==================== Summary ==================== >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Name: WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.63 >>>>>>> Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe >>>>>>> Time: 12 August 2010, 10:46:11 am >>>>>>> UUID: 149d44b2-138b-4d63-a158-f587b2bd391d >>>>>>> Ancestors: WebClient-Core-ar.62 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> added some more #asString's where needed to deal with the different semantics of #, in Squeak vs Pharo; removed usage of #and:and:and:and: with a composition of #and: in WebClient>>connect >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ================================================ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I still have some tests that fail, but I can't find the problem: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 39 run, 34 passes, 0 expected failures, 0 failures, 5 errors, 0 unexpected passes >>>>>>> Failures: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Errors: >>>>>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testMultipartFiles >>>>>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testMultipartFiles2 >>>>>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testServerError >>>>>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testWebSockets >>>>>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testWebSocketsFraming >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The #testServerError bothers me most. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am posting this to a Pharo list as well so that maybe others can help. >>>>>>> Maybe I'll find the problems myself later on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sven >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Aug. 30, 2010

[Pharo-project] Fwd: WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Begin forwarded message: > From: Philippe Marschall <philippe.marschall(a)netcetera.ch> > Date: August 30, 2010 12:17:13 PM GMT+02:00 > To: stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > Subject: Re: WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final > > On 08/30/2010 09:45 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> Sven and philippe >> >> I was wondering what was the license of your submissions to webClient. >> Because this will be also a problem. Either you totally give it to andreas and he can do what he wants with it, >> or you retain the right on the code and andreas has to decide what he will do with it. >> Since you can change the license of your code I imagine that andreas will not include any code if the >> code is not given to him. > > Well with intentionally no license there is no way to telling what > you're allowed to do and what not: > - modify > - redistribute > - redistribute modifications > - even loading > > Without knowing that there's no way I can put any license on my code. > There's no way of telling whether what I did (redistribute modifications > under the same name) was even legal. > > Cheers > Philippe

Aug. 30, 2010

[Pharo-project] Fwd: ImageSegment incompatible with swapping classes that have instances?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Begin forwarded message: > From: Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > Date: August 30, 2010 12:06:36 PM GMT+02:00 > To: Noury Bouraqadi <bouraqadi(a)gmail.com> > Cc: Ducasse StÃ©phane <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)mines-douai.fr> > Subject: Re: ImageSegment incompatible with swapping classes that have instances? > > > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Noury Bouraqadi <bouraqadi(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > The swapping out a class that has instances does not work. More precisely, it crashes the image when loading back. > > What a hacky guy you are ;) > I discover that it fails even before...Implement this in ClassProxy: > > hello > Transcript show: 'Hello' > > Then evaluate: > > o := MyObject new. > o foo: 123. > p := ClassProxy new. > p become: MyObject. > o hello. > > and the vm will crash and nothing in the transcript... > > funny, does someone know why it doesn't work ? > > Cheers > > mariano > > At least in my small example. > Evaluate the code in the ClassProxy comment. > > Noury >

Aug. 30, 2010

[Pharo-project] Fwd: ImageSegment incompatible with swapping classes that have instances?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Begin forwarded message: > From: Noury Bouraqadi <bouraqadi(a)gmail.com> > Date: August 30, 2010 11:18:44 AM GMT+02:00 > To: Martinez Peck Mariano <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > Cc: Ducasse StÃ©phane <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)mines-douai.fr> > Subject: ImageSegment incompatible with swapping classes that have instances? > > Hi, > > The swapping out a class that has instances does not work. More precisely, it crashes the image when loading back. > At least in my small example. > Evaluate the code in the ClassProxy comment. > > Noury >

Aug. 30, 2010

[Pharo-project] squeaksource no license is dangerous

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

hi guys after get burned during some years about the license of Squeak. What do you think to force people to put a license on projects on squeaksource? I have the impression that it would avoid bad situation in the future. Even if I could live with it like it is too. This is just that we just wait to get bitten... Stef

Aug. 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Magnitude should be reimplemented as a Trait

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

+1 So this is ok :) What I would love in my wildest dream is to have magnitude using TComparable :) But this may be too complex. I would like to have the time to check how we can make trait implementation leaner, smaller..... Stef On Aug 30, 2010, at 12:11 PM, jaayer wrote: > > > ---- On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 07:28:19 -0700 Nicolas Cellier wrote ---- > >> I'm not comfortable with English, but to me Magnitude is about >> ordering rather than just comparing. >> I expect a TOrderable to describe a fully or partially ordered set. >> If you define this, then it is a fully ordered set: >> <= aMagnitude >> ^(self > aMagnitude) not >> >> Beware, due to introduction of NaN, Float is not fully ordered, this >> require overriding above message in Number. >> >> Nicolas > > Comparable has parallels in other languages like Java and C#'s Comparable and IComparable interfaces. Also, one of its categories is "comparing." > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 30, 2010