June 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] Fwd: [Pharo-users] [SPAM] Re: WebClient

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > StÃ©phane, > > On 11 Jun 2010, at 23:09, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Hi sven >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Andreas Raab's 'new' WebClient/WebServer seems quite nice, as he says himself: >>> >>> As a result, we now have what I think is a pretty decent HTTP server and client implementation for Squeak 4.1 and hopefully we can nuke HTTPSocket sometime soon. WebClient is superior in every respect. >>> >>> Is this something that will / should fit seamlessly into Pharo ? Or even become preinstalled ? >> >> could be but not at the price to have concatenation of string and numbers. >> So this means that somebody would have to do a pass on the code and produce a pharo version that squeakers may want or not. > > I went over the code and produced a version of WebClient-Core (and WebClient-Test) that passes all units tests in Pharo 1.1 rc 2: > > Filename: WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.24.mcz > Author: Sven Van Caekenberghe > Timestamp: 14 June 2010 4:24:21 pm > UUID: 92b7f407-8df1-4472-962b-45d99f2364b8 > Ancestors: WebClient-Core-ar.23.mcz > > Filename: WebClient-Tests-SvenVanCaekenberghe.12.mcz > Author: Sven Van Caekenberghe > Timestamp: 14 June 2010 4:25 pm > UUID: f495c2cd-54bb-42a9-a6d7-f380cd656f3f > Ancestors: WebClient-Tests-ar.11.mcz > > Both at http://www.squeaksource.com/ADayAtTheBeach. > > The only remaining method needed from the old WebClient-Pharo package is String#squeakToUtf8 > > squeakToUtf8 > "Convert the receiver into a UTF8-encoded string" > > ^self convertToWithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new. > > There are only 4 callers so I could change that as well, should I ? I checked the references to UTF8TextConverter and it feels as if you don't want a method like #squeakToUtf8 (apart from the name ;-) If I remember correctly mike changed them because there were no use anymore. >>> I didn't try his ConfigurationOfWebClient since the last version was unreadable and it seemed like an experiment, while his textual explanation was easy to follow. >>> >>> To load it into and to make the unit tests run in Pharo 1.0 I had to make a couple of fixes (to WebCookie#printOn: and WebServer class#serverString). Who should I sent these changes to ? >> >> to andreas? >> may be ask him if he wants to have a version working also for pharo but without String#, override > > I will contact Andreas directly once I know your position on the last remaining item. Good > Sven > > BTW, Is there a way to make a (old school) ChangeSet (or even another 'patch' package) out of the differences between versions in Monticello ? Click on changes>history> and you can get the delta. Stef

June 14, 2010

[Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1

by Torsten Bergmann

Hi Stef, >do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized >that way? No, why do you think so? Please dont get off-topic. We talk about a menu here - nobody lamented about Pharo in general. Please reread what I wrote: "Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users" I think it was clear from my mail that moving KNOWN menues around from time to time is IMHO a bad idea. Maybe you disagree, but I'm still keep this opinion. So I dislike the idea of leaving it for now and MOVE the Help menu LATER (as Adrian suggested) since this is what confuses people, especially since user help is something really important. We can discuss it now, keep it or fix it. So we can avoid that moving menues from time to time will lead to irritation. >We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it Second time you write "we". For me it is still not clear who discussed it (you and Adrian?) and where and which arguments lead to the decision. Please tell us so we can also understand your point of view. Thx T. -- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl

June 14, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1

by laurent laffont

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:04 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > > > There are three items for me: > > > - Help Browser > > > - ProfStef Browser > > > - Welcome Workspace > > > > may be "Welcome Workspace" should be outside of the help and put in > system. > > > > I have a look again at the menus. IMHO the menu which has the least > "Raison d'Ãªtre" is the System Menu. > > > > We can put Integrator Menu and Settings in Tools, About in Help. This way > we remove System so the length of the world menu remains the same. > > what would be structure? > ------ means separator. I've tried to put related things together: Tools Transcript Script manager Process browser -------------- Message names Method finder -------------- Recent submissions Change sorter Recover lost changes File browser Integrator menu -------------- Settings Windows (unchanged) Debug (unchanged) Help System Help ProfStef Welcome workspace About I have never used Process Browser, isn't it used for debugging purposes ? If so we can put it in Debug menu. It seems that Windows>Send top window to back doesn't work. Anyway, someone use it ? > > > > Maybe we can also hide Integrator Menu (like software update) as very few > people use it. > > Yes it will disappear in the final > OK > > > > We can also remove 'Save and Quit' entry as 'Quit' asks whether we want > to save or not. > > this has been discussed a long time ago > OK, so I suppose the final decision was to keep it. Laurent > > > > Laurent > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

June 14, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > There are three items for me: > > - Help Browser > > - ProfStef Browser > > - Welcome Workspace > > may be "Welcome Workspace" should be outside of the help and put in system. > > I have a look again at the menus. IMHO the menu which has the least "Raison d'Ãªtre" is the System Menu. > > We can put Integrator Menu and Settings in Tools, About in Help. This way we remove System so the length of the world menu remains the same. what would be structure? > Maybe we can also hide Integrator Menu (like software update) as very few people use it. Yes it will disappear in the final > We can also remove 'Save and Quit' entry as 'Quit' asks whether we want to save or not. this has been discussed a long time ago > > Laurent > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 14, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1

by laurent laffont

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:20 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > this is already a menu! > > this is a menu with only one item right now. so we think that this it is > good where it is. > > > > ?? > > ok I did not check in pharo-dev > > > There are three items for me: > > - Help Browser > > - ProfStef Browser > > - Welcome Workspace > > may be "Welcome Workspace" should be outside of the help and put in system. > I have a look again at the menus. IMHO the menu which has the least "Raison d'Ãªtre" is the System Menu. We can put Integrator Menu and Settings in Tools, About in Help. This way we remove System so the length of the world menu remains the same. Maybe we can also hide Integrator Menu (like software update) as very few people use it. We can also remove 'Save and Quit' entry as 'Quit' asks whether we want to save or not. Laurent > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

June 14, 2010

[Pharo-project] Smallthought FUD

by Stephan Eggermont

As long as we're spreading FUD: Stephan

June 14, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, FWIW, the "only one item" argument argument breaks down in Pharo dev, because it adds items that belong in a help menu. Not only is the Prof Stef browser (the GUI version) likely to be of use to newbies, it is something that we should show off as an example for more experienced users. That gets to a different question. Suppose one is looking at something like the Prof Stef browser and want to browse the code that created it. Do we have a good way to do that? Dolphin's "subclass a presenter" approach makes that type of browsing fairly easy, but in Squeak and hence in Pharo, one tends to compose views using a generic top-level class. That is fine, but some type of connection to the package or better yet the "factory" that created the window and a way to browse same would be helpful. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 6:49 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1 >> I also moved it away from the top level into the system submenu because >there is no help content yet. When this is going to be a great help system >that is used a lot, then I agree we should move it to the top level. But for >now I would leave it in the system menu. > > People should feel familar and comfortable with each new version. > Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users! do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized that way? It would be sad because we spent really a lot of time. Now I can tell you that we did not change the menu immediately when we thought we should. We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it. Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 14, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > Yes, we reorganized this because it was just *one* menu item inside a > submenu (in PharoCore). > But w are not talking about PharoCore, but about Pharo. And it is not one, but 4 items: - Help Browser - ProfStef Browser - Welcome Workspace - About > > I also moved it away from the top level into the system submenu because > there is no help content yet. When this is going to be a great help system > that is used a lot, then I agree we should move it to the top level. But for > now I would leave it in the system menu. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > On Jun 14, 2010, at 11:36 , StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > > Guys > > > > this is already a menu! > > this is a menu with only one item right now. so we think that this it is > good where it is. > > > > Stef > > On Jun 14, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> 2010/6/14 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > >> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 10:25 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> this is in system>help > >> because we do not want a long menu and the help got in our way several > times. > >> > >> I understand we need to be careful about long menus, but I vote for > having a help menu. > >> > >> me too. +1 > >> Help menu is standard, useful and user friendy. > >> Every app in the world has a Help menu. > >> > >> Anyway, if you decide to reintegrate it, the slice is in inbox: > SLICE-Issue-2442-RestoreHelpMenu-LaurentLaffont.1 > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Laurent. > >> > >> > >> > >> Stef > >> > >> On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:21 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> 2010/6/14 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > >>> On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < > marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>> Hi folks. There is a new Pharo 1.1 rc2 image for beta testing. It is > based in PharoCore rc2 11400. > >>> > >>> Help menu is gone ? > >>> > >>> Thanks for reporting. Yes, it seems to have disappeared. I have just > checked in PharoCore 11400 and it is not there neither. So, it is not "Dev" > fault at least. > >>> > >>> Was fixed in http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2442 > >>> > >>> Maybe re integrate it ? > >>> > >>> Cheers > >>> > >>> Mariano > >>> > >>> > >>> Laurent Laffont > >>> > >>> > >>> http://pharocasts.blogspot.com/ > >>> http://magaloma.blogspot.com/ > >>> > >>> > >>> A little remark is that this is the first release candidate, not the > second one. There was a problem when building the PharoCore rc1 and thus, we > used PharoCore RC2. To be concistent we call it Pharo 1.1 rc2 to this image. > >>> > >>> We are getting closer to the stable release of Pharo 1.1 so we would > really appreaciate any kind of feedback. Use it, load your packages and > applications, run tests, etc. > >>> > >>> The download link is: > https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/27159/Pharo-1.1-11400-rc2dev10.06.… > >>> > >>> Cheers > >>> > >>> Mariano > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Pharo-users mailing list > >>> Pharo-users(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Pharo-project mailing list > >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Pharo-project mailing list > >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

June 14, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> I also moved it away from the top level into the system submenu because >there is no help content yet. When this is going to be a great help system >that is used a lot, then I agree we should move it to the top level. But for >now I would leave it in the system menu. > > People should feel familar and comfortable with each new version. > Moving menues around is throwing eggs onto you end users! do you think that all the good energy that we put on pharo can be summarized that way? It would be sad because we spent really a lot of time. Now I can tell you that we did not change the menu immediately when we thought we should. We waited a bit until we got more convinced that we should move it. Stef

June 14, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Help menu disappeared [WAS] [ANN] Pharo-1.1-11400-rc1dev10.06.1

by Mariano Martinez Peck

+1 to all your comments, included moving System about. On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > +2 for Laurent/Mariano and -1 for Stef here: > > Why I agree with Laurent and Mariano: > > - every app has a help menu > - in almost any case such a help menu is at the top level of > menus/toolbars/context menues > - if one needs help then it should be easily accessible > since it means the end user is lost and needs guidance > > Why I disagree with Stef: > - currently "Help" is really HIDDEN under "System" > (it's not obvious to a newbie, I tried with a > friend today) > - having it under "System" is too technical - think of any > kind of end user help than (technical) system help > (If you deploy a commercial app based on Pharo you > still have "Help" but no "System" menu) > - it is not a menu with a one item since AFAIK it could > be extended and the idea was to place also ProfStef under > it (when loaded in Pharo dev) or other help related stuff > > I understand we need to be careful about long menus, but > then I would rather see "Debug" moved under "System" > since it's a rare use case compared to looking for help. > > So I would vote for having it always as the last entry in > the middle section of the world menu: > > Monticello Browser > _____________ > - Tools > - Windows > - System > -- Debug > -- ... > - Whatever 1 > - Whatever 2 > - Help > -- Help Contents -> full Browser > -- ProfStef -> when loaded > -- ... > -- About -> Info dialog > _____________ > Save > Save as... > > That's easy recognizable even when the menu is extended/changed. > I would also place the "About" as the last item under "Help" > since this is also a typical place for it. > > This discussion may not be important to most of us but > usability is key to acceptance and success. > > My 0,02â¬ > > Bye > T. > > > -- > GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. > Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

June 14, 2010