April 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] a monthly friday afternoon hacking day

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I will open the irc and send us an email. Stef On Apr 20, 2010, at 10:39 PM, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > OK, I'll block my agenda and try to wake up early ;-) > > > > > Em 20/04/2010 17:00, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: > we could try a skype pair programming session. > We will start around 13h00 local time = france. > > Stef > On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:43 PM, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > >> I'm in if we can figure out a way of gathering on-line in any way appropriate for this purpose. >> >> -- >> Cesar Rabak >> >> >> Em 20/04/2010 07:46, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: >> Hi >> >> I would really like that one afternoon a month we gather and we program pharo stuff. We could start Friday 30. >> Let me know if you are ok. >> The idea is to have fun together. >> >> Stef >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 20, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

OK, I do agree the statement about vision and your pragmatism. The matter specific with infrastructure things like FFI (I think even Alien still falls in this category) it that at some point there is need to test in all platforms supported by Pharo and I don't see this fitting in the 30'/week paradigm. . . HTH -- Cesar Rabak Em 20/04/2010 17:04, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: Now when I say FFI this is alien if alien is available. since alien deals better with callbacks apparently. Bill my plate is full :) but this is not a problem of vision. We have cool and real dreams for Pharo. Now we should be darned pragmatic. One stone at a time... but millions of time. This is why your 30 min a week for pharo makes a real difference. Back hakcing on Rapckage. Stef On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:56 PM, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > > Due the way I envisage using Pharo I have stakes in these matterÂ¹. Please read with a grain of salt. > > > I think the 'interpretation' of Stef's question is being different from person to person. The issue Wilhelm brings it seems to me more of "what priority we give to have FFI working". > > Putting it as part of core IMHO has more chances of having it prioritized as we think in the release of 1.1 that if we leave it as a package, because it may be still broken and 1.1 may be called ready for shipping. > > I also do agree that FFI is infrastructure and as such has to be seen as core, and since the ability to have Pharo more useful depends on the possibility to use a lot of code we are not able (in some case even not willing to) to rewrite in Pharo Smalltalk, I vote to have it as default and strive to have it working as soon as possible. > > my 0.01999... > > > -- > Cesar Rabak > > [1] If you're curious, I'm interested in seeing R http://www.r-project.org/ working with Pharo (at least as Martin Rubi's smallRApi for Dolphin) > > Em 20/04/2010 10:15, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com > escreveu: > > > > > 2010/4/20 Schwab,Wilhelm K > > > > Mariano, > > FFI, use of OS threads and callbacks are *very* basic needs that we should support. IMHO, we should be focused on making them work, not on classifying what is internal or external. > > > > > But is has nothing to do with what Stef asked: "Do we add FFI by default in 1.1?" > In my opinion, it shouldn't be by default. > > However, this doesn't mean that we don't support FFI. And I am not saying to focus in internal or external. I just answer Stef question with my opinion. > > Cheers > > Mariano > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 9:49 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1 > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:31 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > Hi all > > Do we add FFI by default in 1.1? > > > Noooooooooo!!! > > I wouldn't include neither FFI or Alien FFI in neither PharoCore or PharoDev image. > > FFI is an EXTERNAL package, NOT core, neither a dev tool. > > That's only my opinion. > > Cheers > > Mariano > This was the plan so. > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 20, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] a monthly friday afternoon hacking day

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

OK, I'll block my agenda and try to wake up early ;-) Em 20/04/2010 17:00, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: we could try a skype pair programming session. We will start around 13h00 local time = france. Stef On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:43 PM, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > I'm in if we can figure out a way of gathering on-line in any way appropriate for this purpose. > > -- > Cesar Rabak > > > Em 20/04/2010 07:46, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: > Hi > > I would really like that one afternoon a month we gather and we program pharo stuff. We could start Friday 30. > Let me know if you are ok. > The idea is to have fun together. > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 20, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: Easy SqueakVM build

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

you rock! We should have much more scripts to simplify our life! Stef > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > Date: Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:16 PM > Subject: Easy SqueakVM build > To: Squeak Virtual Machine Development Discussion <vm-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> > > > Hi, > > I've written a script to build the squeak vm from scratch on Linux in one command. It's here http://github.com/lolgzs/easy_squeakvm > To build the VM, just get the the script and > ./easy_squeakvm.sh > > This will > - checkout squeakvm sources from svn repository > - download PharoCore image > - load VMMaker into PharoCore > - generate the interpreter > - build the VM > - put binaries in out/squeakvm, ready to use > > I was tired of typing the same commands over and over :) > > Cheers, > > Laurent Laffont > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 20, 2010

[Pharo-project] Fwd: Easy SqueakVM build

by laurent laffont

If some people are interested ... Cheers, Laurent Laffont ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> Date: Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:16 PM Subject: Easy SqueakVM build To: Squeak Virtual Machine Development Discussion < vm-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> Hi, I've written a script to build the squeak vm from scratch on Linux in one command. It's here http://github.com/lolgzs/easy_squeakvm To build the VM, just get the the script and ./easy_squeakvm.sh This will - checkout squeakvm sources from svn repository - download PharoCore image - load VMMaker into PharoCore - generate the interpreter - build the VM - put binaries in out/squeakvm, ready to use I was tired of typing the same commands over and over :) Cheers, Laurent Laffont

April 20, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Cesar, Driving R from Pharo - interesting!! But I digress. I am indeed looking at internal/external debates as a statement on priorities, and I believe FFI/Alien/os-threads/callbacks[*] should be given a very high priority. Stef clearly wants the core to be simple, and I have no desire to hobble him in that effort. A compromise there would be to have FFI and friends in Pharo, not necessarily in the core. Bill [*] From what I am reading, Alien is not so good at making calls to functions. FFI has little/no sense of callbacks, and I'm not sure that either will do anything like Dolphin's overlapped calls, which allows functions to be called from separate OS threads. The latter is critical to making things that can defend themselves against code that hangs. Don't tell me that shouldn't happen :) A hang can be as simple as something that does not return as quickly as a user had hoped; it can be as functional as using OS threads to allow OpenSSL to attempt a blocking connect w/o taking down the entire image, etc. -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of csrabak(a)bol.com.br Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:56 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1 <blatant warning> Due the way I envisage using Pharo I have stakes in these matterÂ¹. Please read with a grain of salt. </blatant warning> I think the 'interpretation' of Stef's question is being different from person to person. The issue Wilhelm brings it seems to me more of "what priority we give to have FFI working". Putting it as part of core IMHO has more chances of having it prioritized as we think in the release of 1.1 that if we leave it as a package, because it may be still broken and 1.1 may be called ready for shipping. I also do agree that FFI is infrastructure and as such has to be seen as core, and since the ability to have Pharo more useful depends on the possibility to use a lot of code we are not able (in some case even not willing to) to rewrite in Pharo Smalltalk, I vote to have it as default and strive to have it working as soon as possible. my 0.01999... -- Cesar Rabak [1] If you're curious, I'm interested in seeing R http://www.r-project.org/ working with Pharo (at least as Martin Rubi's smallRApi for Dolphin) Em 20/04/2010 10:15, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com > escreveu: 2010/4/20 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> Mariano, FFI, use of OS threads and callbacks are *very* basic needs that we should support.Â IMHO, we should be focused on making them work, not on classifying what is internal or external. But is has nothing to do with what Stef asked: "Do we add FFI by default in 1.1?" In my opinion, it shouldn't be by default. However, this doesn't mean that we don't support FFI. And I am not saying to focus in internal or external. I just answer Stef question with my opinion. Cheers Mariano Bill From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 9:49 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1 On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:31 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: Hi all Do we add FFI by default in 1.1? Noooooooooo!!! I wouldn't include neither FFI or Alien FFI in neither PharoCore or PharoDev image. FFI is an EXTERNAL package, NOT core, neither a dev tool. That's only my opinion. Cheers Mariano This was the plan so. Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 20, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] a monthly friday afternoon hacking day

by Lawson English

csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > I'm in if we can figure out a way of gathering on-line in any way appropriate for this purpose. > There's always Croquet/Squeak, with VNC. You can also use Second LIfe viewer 2 + voice/skype and webpage-based collaborative tools Lawson

April 20, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Now when I say FFI this is alien if alien is available. since alien deals better with callbacks apparently. Bill my plate is full :) but this is not a problem of vision. We have cool and real dreams for Pharo. Now we should be darned pragmatic. One stone at a time... but millions of time. This is why your 30 min a week for pharo makes a real difference. Back hakcing on Rapckage. Stef On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:56 PM, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > <blatant warning> > Due the way I envisage using Pharo I have stakes in these matterÂ¹. Please read with a grain of salt. > </blatant warning> > > I think the 'interpretation' of Stef's question is being different from person to person. The issue Wilhelm brings it seems to me more of "what priority we give to have FFI working". > > Putting it as part of core IMHO has more chances of having it prioritized as we think in the release of 1.1 that if we leave it as a package, because it may be still broken and 1.1 may be called ready for shipping. > > I also do agree that FFI is infrastructure and as such has to be seen as core, and since the ability to have Pharo more useful depends on the possibility to use a lot of code we are not able (in some case even not willing to) to rewrite in Pharo Smalltalk, I vote to have it as default and strive to have it working as soon as possible. > > my 0.01999... > > > -- > Cesar Rabak > > [1] If you're curious, I'm interested in seeing R http://www.r-project.org/ working with Pharo (at least as Martin Rubi's smallRApi for Dolphin) > > Em 20/04/2010 10:15, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com > escreveu: > > > > > 2010/4/20 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > > > > Mariano, > > FFI, use of OS threads and callbacks are *very* basic needs that we should support. IMHO, we should be focused on making them work, not on classifying what is internal or external. > > > > > But is has nothing to do with what Stef asked: "Do we add FFI by default in 1.1?" > In my opinion, it shouldn't be by default. > > However, this doesn't mean that we don't support FFI. And I am not saying to focus in internal or external. I just answer Stef question with my opinion. > > Cheers > > Mariano > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 9:49 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1 > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:31 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Hi all > > Do we add FFI by default in 1.1? > > > Noooooooooo!!! > > I wouldn't include neither FFI or Alien FFI in neither PharoCore or PharoDev image. > > FFI is an EXTERNAL package, NOT core, neither a dev tool. > > That's only my opinion. > > Cheers > > Mariano > This was the plan so. > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 20, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] a monthly friday afternoon hacking day

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

we could try a skype pair programming session. We will start around 13h00 local time = france. Stef On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:43 PM, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > I'm in if we can figure out a way of gathering on-line in any way appropriate for this purpose. > > -- > Cesar Rabak > > > Em 20/04/2010 07:46, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: > Hi > > I would really like that one afternoon a month we gather and we program pharo stuff. We could start Friday 30. > Let me know if you are ok. > The idea is to have fun together. > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 20, 2010

[Pharo-project] what expectedfailures expected to do?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi I tagged some tests as expected failures and I got a strange behavior. On the the tests which was passing was listed under the failures. When I renamed the method without updating the expected failures my bar was green. So expected failures really expect that the tests failed? We cannto have green tests in there? Stef

April 20, 2010