April 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

by stephane ducasse

On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:29 PM, Phil (list) wrote: > I've been surprised that I haven't seen any statement from ESUG re: how these policies negatively impact the future prospects for Smalltalk on the iPhone/iPad and the investments they've made in the platform to date that Apple seems willing to wipe out. Wouldn't now be a good time to try to get some visibility on the larger issue? We were waiting to get news from the scratch story. And also I'm not a really good politically correct person to write that so any text to start with would help the board to produce a statement going in that direction. Stef

April 21, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

by stephane ducasse

On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:26 PM, John M McIntosh wrote: > > On 2010-04-21, at 1:13 PM, stephane ducasse wrote: > >> Good! >> John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported this VM work for the iphone. >> >> STef > > Yes, I did conduct a magazine interview today where I ensured I did mentioned that ESUG funding was > instrumental in getting the foundations of Scratch (aka Squeak VM) onto the iPhone, otherwise it > would never have happened. Excellent! > As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not allowed, but in the > future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even if it's hidden from view > or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application. Great! But nothing really new on that front. Stef

April 21, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] HelpSystem (was Documentation Team)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Torsten may be you should trun your explanation mail into a book section on book.pharo-project.org because it was cool. > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html I think that HelpSystem will be an important piece of Pharo. And I was planning to push it into 1.1 dev :) ASCII is ok for us. Let us be incremental. I like the HelpBrowser openOn: SystemReference :) I think that this is the way to push people to write cool comment. Check the one of URI in 1.1 :) Now how can we turn pragma tagged method comments and Unit tests into entries in your HelpSystem. HelpBuilder of course :) Now could we agree on a nice pragma for tagging methods and another one sunit tests that should be promoted into the SystemReference I believe that we do not have the resources to write separate documentation as VW does. So at least I would have love to have HelpSystem minus minus where we could get book automatically created from the actual contents of the system. Tagging is way more reachable than writing specific documentation. Then I would love to see package level comments... this was this idea behind DrDoc and this is why I should kick my $%^&finger to finish RPackage Stef On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:56 PM, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion > on squeak-dev: > > 1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use > it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview. > I have clear goals how it should look like in the > next iterations. For this more patience is necessary. > > 2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual > information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with > the IRC example, the books and the API help). > > 3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions > (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...) > > The last additions from Hannes already broke the code > in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342 > > But please dont commit when it is only working in > Squeak since my development environment is Pharo. > > 4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared > to add other types in future releases. > > A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring > to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType" > in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types > (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...) > > 5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also > serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial > app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your > end user/customer > > 6. There are two types of help I see: > > A. SystemHelp: Help books/Tutorials/Manuals > B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments > > HelpSystem is supporting both. > I already wrote about the differences and details in > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html > > 7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing > in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper > to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the > current plain text. > If people want to contribute they should start right with this > task. > > I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo, > dont know about the state in Squeak. > > There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available > open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this. > > http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&… > > 8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...) > to use for describing the contents. > My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since > this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.) > and even when there are different syntax styles you can provides > builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes > afterwards. > > See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses. > > 9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then > the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar > to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly > map book structures to the class hierarchy. > > The intention was to be able to create, store and manage > these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools. > You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser. > > 10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute > right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the > standard image. > > HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual > sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this > or make it too complicated since this is what people are > used too. > > I dont see more documented classes by introducing a > special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about > - so lets clean up documenting the classes first. > > 11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources > (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing > could be done right from within the image. > Even when the result is stored external afterwards. > > Look at my example books: I can view and change them > right from the image and make them available to other images > using Metacello/Squeaksource. > Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep > the system and docu in sync and up to date. > > External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see > the Squeak Swiki). > > 12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and > Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early. > > 13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we > can generate static files or serve them with Seaside. > But I have no need for that right now, especially since > this is already available in various forms. > > We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it) > > But - let's do it step by step. As I said: > > - Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate > would really help moving this forward > (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle) > - Updating class comments would also help a lot > > Bye > Torsten > > > > > > > > > -- > GRATIS fÃ¼r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! > Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 21, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Some more dev on Polymorph for DrGeo

by Hilaire Fernandes

I would love to. In the meantime you may find the code instructing, starting from the DrGeo class you can follow to the polymorph use. Hilaire Simon Denier a Ã©crit : > It looks good already. It would be great if you could share your tips and tricks for Polymorph in the Pharo book ;) > > > On 21 avr. 2010, at 18:36, Hilaire Fernandes wrote: > >> Known to work with Pharo 1.0. >> >> Someone asked for a more elaborated UI for DrGeo, here are some progresses in this polymorphization of DrGeo. In its latest Monticello package one can grab DrGeo at http://www.squeaksource.com/DrGeoII >> >> See enclosed screenshot for a quick view. >> >> To start a DrGeo instance, do a "DrGeo new" in a workspace and enjoy the UI. >> >> Beware, style tools does not work in the toolbar. >> >> It is also possible to use DrGeo as a service for Etoys when executing a "DrGeo sample openInWorld" >> >> It is also possible to load XML description of DrGeo 1.1 geometric sketch, if one is interested you can grab it at http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/drgeo/trunk/examples/figures/ and load a sketch with a command: >> DrGeo newXml: path >> >> Beware sketch with embedded Scheme code will not work (just try) >> Working sketch: mercedes, euler-line, >> >> DrGeoII comes with a better interface for scripting with Smalltalk script, empower by the IDE, much nice than the former Scheme one. >> Elaborated demonstration at http://blog.ofset.org/hilaire/index.php?post/script-drgeo (automatic translation link with Google in a comment, at the end of the article) >> >> >> <drgeo-poly.png>_______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > Simon

April 21, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Hints and clues for a Pharo newb

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Apr 21, 2010, at 6:09 PM, Peter Hugosson-Miller wrote: > Hi all, > > So it's time for me to stop lurking and do some stuff. However, although I am an experienced Smalltalk programmer (VisualAge Smalltalk continuously since 1995), I am a complete newb when it comes to Pharo and Squeak, it's hard to find my way around, and it's going to take me some time to get up to speed. I'm happy to hear that.

April 21, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

by Phil (list)

I've been surprised that I haven't seen any statement from ESUG re: how these policies negatively impact the future prospects for Smalltalk on the iPhone/iPad and the investments they've made in the platform to date that Apple seems willing to wipe out. Wouldn't now be a good time to try to get some visibility on the larger issue? Phil On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:13 PM, stephane ducasse wrote: > Good! > John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported > this VM work for the iphone. > > STef > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:12 PM, John M McIntosh wrote: > >> Morning, I've posted the letter I had posted to the Apple developer >> forums and sent to Steve Jobs at >> >> http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Interpreters.html >> >> I'll suggest there was some lifting of concept and quotes by Wired >> from letter. >> >> As of this morning I have no further news, I have heard thru >> various sources that the issue is not dead yet, >> >> So I wait. >> >> On 2010-04-16, at 11:09 AM, John M McIntosh wrote: >> >>> Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app >> >> -- >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> ===================================================================== >> John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: >> squeaker68882 >> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> = >> ===================================================================== >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >

April 21, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

by John M McIntosh

On 2010-04-21, at 1:13 PM, stephane ducasse wrote: > Good! > John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported this VM work for the iphone. > > STef Yes, I did conduct a magazine interview today where I ensured I did mentioned that ESUG funding was instrumental in getting the foundations of Scratch (aka Squeak VM) onto the iPhone, otherwise it would never have happened. As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not allowed, but in the future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even if it's hidden from view or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application. -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ===========================================================================

April 21, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Hints and clues for a Pharo newb

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> thisContext is a special object for representing an activation in a >> stack frame in a stack-based VM. > > Actually "thisContext" represents *the current* activation/stack-frame. > > foo: anObject > ^ thisContext at: 1 > > is the same as > > foo: anObject > ^ anObject > >> There are two kinds of contexts: >> Method Contexts and Block Contexts. > > Actually in Pharo images there are only instances of MethodContext. > Though you can ask the context if it comes from a block by sending the > message #isExecutingBlock. > >> Context creation is optimized in the VM in most Smalltalks, so it's >> only really created as an object in the environment (reified) when >> it's specifically needed through "thisContext". > > In Pharo contexts are not reified like that. Stack-frames are actual > objects at all times. However, for speed reasons, their creation and > garbage-collection is optimized by the VM. Stack frames get > automatically recycled if nobody refers to them. Hernan you used VW I see :) In Pharo this is like lukas said, we got this discussion with him for some seaside papers :) > >> There are several applications related with computational reflection >> (Reflective Programming, Meta-Programming, MOP, etc) which makes use >> of the current context. > > Also: exception handling, generators, continuations, co-routines, ... > > For another fun use of "thisContext" check this Stack-Overflow question: > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2500483/is-there-a-way-in-a-message-only… > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 21, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

by stephane ducasse

Good! John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported this VM work for the iphone. STef On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:12 PM, John M McIntosh wrote: > Morning, I've posted the letter I had posted to the Apple developer forums and sent to Steve Jobs at > > http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Interpreters.html > > I'll suggest there was some lifting of concept and quotes by Wired from letter. > > As of this morning I have no further news, I have heard thru various sources that the issue is not dead yet, > > So I wait. > > On 2010-04-16, at 11:09 AM, John M McIntosh wrote: > >> Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app > > -- > =========================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > =========================================================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 21, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Doc about Coral?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

well this is in a bad taste but you can by loading Gofer new squeaksource: 'Coral'; load CoralLoader load I did not try in 1.1 let me know if you succeed Now I'm too busy to push it but I should.... argh. Syntax is like that: [ Point < #ColoredPoint iv: 'color'; iv: 'z'. ] or [Point < #ColoredPoint package: #Box. ] or [Point < #ColoredPoint iv: 'color z'. ] or [Point < #ColoredPoint shared: 'DefaultColor'.] then [Console print: ''''Coral is working'''', String lf. Console print: ''''Yahoo!''''] [ Object <: #SaBox iv: 'bob' package: 'SandBox' ] SaBox>>convertToFiles: aClass inDirectory: rootDir [ "a dummy example that convert a class in a file hierarchy" | classDir categoryNames | classDir := (rootDir / aClass asString) mkdir. categoryNames := aClass organization categories collect: [ :aCategory | aCategory asString ]. categoryNames do: [ :aCategoryName | | protocolDir | protocolDir := (classDir / aCategoryName) mkdir. (aClass methodsInCategory: aCategoryName) do: [ :aSelector | (protocolDir / (aSelector asFileName replaceAll: $: with: $_)) asFile contents: (aClass sourceCodeAt: aSelector) ] ]. ^classDir ] [ SaBox new convertToFiles: Object inDirectory: Directory home. Console print: ''''The directory '''', Directory home path, ''''/Object has been created'''' ] now the parser works and I was in the middle of moving to filessytem and got stuck in pharo. Stef On Apr 21, 2010, at 6:44 PM, Nicolas Petton wrote: > Hi, > > I was wondering if there is some documentation about Coral? > I would like to play a bit with it :) > > Cheers, > > Nico > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 21, 2010