April 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 6:12 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > > > > yes communication with C library. so this is just a tool too. > > > > > > > > Exactly. It is a tool. Not a dev tool in my opinion.In such way, > SqueakDBX is also a tool. A tool to persist in a relational database. > > Mariano FFI/ALIEN is ***REALLY*** important to get the possibility to call > and write code in smalltalk > as mentioned by john so this is more central (closer to core) than openDBX > or refactoring browser. > Look at lua... why lua is cool because he can be embeded seamlessly in C > and call C. So if we do not put pressure > on FFI to support callback well or ALIEN then we will stay this language > that has problem to interact with the outside world. > This is why having FFI in pharo-dev is important. We should be able to call > mac native menu. > Of course we should pay attention that we rely too much on C library but > the world is getting more complex and writing > everything in smalltalk is also costly. Not FFI/ALIEN can reduce our > dependency to C compilation and C-writing so this is already > an important step. > Am I clear? > > Yes, and I agree. However, that was not the discussion. I agree FFI is important. I don't care to add it to PharoDev 1.1 if you agree with that. But I STILL think and that's what I was discussing in the last mail, is that FFI is NOT A DEV TOOL for me. Anyway...forget this little discussion. In summary, should I add FFI when I start to build PharoDev 1.1 ? Cheers Mariano Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

April 25, 2010

[Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharocasts: SandstoneDb (with subtitles !)

by laurent laffont

Hi, I've just uploaded a new screencast which introduces SandstoneDb (and also HelpSystem). http://pharocasts.blogspot.com/2010/04/sandstonedb-simple-activerecord-styl… Note this is my first one with subtitles. There's a link so you can download it and translate it (some people have asked for that). I've used SubtitleEditor (http://home.gna.org/subtitleeditor/) but I don't really like it. Do you know a better software on Linux ? The video is accelerated, it's more dynamic IMHO ( to do this in avidemux, just go in video menu, framerate, and put a higher framerate). <http://pharocasts.blogspot.com/2010/04/sandstonedb-simple-activerecord-styl…> Cheers, Laurent Laffont

April 25, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Re: Need your help filling a FAQ

by Igor Stasenko

On 25 April 2010 20:46, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >>> Â Â Â Â - what is the representation that you use to convert it to assembly? >>> Â Â Â byteocde or ast >>> Â Â Â if AST which one? RBAst? >>> >> >> A NativeBoost package using AsmJit library >> (http://www.squeaksource.com/AsmJit) for generating native code. >> Its been ported from AsmJit project (http://code.google.com/p/asmjit/) >> written in C. > > I was more thinking if you analyze the method AST and automatically generate x86. > But I think that you do it by hand right :) Yup. Translating smalltalk code into native code requires an abstraction layer, i'm yet missing :) I know what you asking, like, if you can code like this: myNativeMethod: foo with: bar <native> ^ foo readByte + bar * self (I following this way , but in another project - Moebius ;) ). Sure, it can be possible to use it. And i slowly moving in that direction. The infrastructure in Moebius is following: (a)(Smalltalk parser) -> (b)(Native intermediate instructions generator (compiler)) -> (c)(Native code translator) -> (d)(AsmJit) I having a, b and d , but c is still not complete. And sure thing, one can use it for own purposes , since Moebius implemented purely in smalltalk, and works in Squeak/Pharo, so potentially it can be retargeted to anything else. > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

April 25, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

+2 :) -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:47 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1 On Apr 25, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > +1 > > I would even vote for a nice Java integration if one would be available :). I hope that johan will provide Javaconnect but this one will be a real external tool :) > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 25 Apr 2010, at 18:17, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > >> +1 >> >> On 25 Apr 2010, at 12:12, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>>> >>>> yes communication with C library. so this is just a tool too. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Exactly. It is a tool. Not a dev tool in my opinion.In such way, SqueakDBX is also a tool. A tool to persist in a relational database. >>> >>> Mariano FFI/ALIEN is ***REALLY*** important to get the possibility >>> to call and write code in smalltalk as mentioned by john so this is more central (closer to core) than openDBX or refactoring browser. >>> Look at lua... why lua is cool because he can be embeded seamlessly >>> in C and call C. So if we do not put pressure on FFI to support callback well or ALIEN then we will stay this language that has problem to interact with the outside world. >>> This is why having FFI in pharo-dev is important. We should be able to call mac native menu. >>> Of course we should pay attention that we rely too much on C library >>> but the world is getting more complex and writing everything in >>> smalltalk is also costly. Not FFI/ALIEN can reduce our dependency to C compilation and C-writing so this is already an important step. >>> Am I clear? >>> >>> Stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 25, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, You are clear, and (IMHO) correct. We need good ability to call out (FWIW, Alien's ability here has been questioned, fairly or not??), good callbacks (FFI is seriously weak here), and at least some ability to make calls on separate OS threads to protect the image from being locked by something that does not return - we are currently helpless on the latter point. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 11:13 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] FFI in 1.1 > > yes communication with C library. so this is just a tool too. > > > > Exactly. It is a tool. Not a dev tool in my opinion.In such way, SqueakDBX is also a tool. A tool to persist in a relational database. Mariano FFI/ALIEN is ***REALLY*** important to get the possibility to call and write code in smalltalk as mentioned by john so this is more central (closer to core) than openDBX or refactoring browser. Look at lua... why lua is cool because he can be embeded seamlessly in C and call C. So if we do not put pressure on FFI to support callback well or ALIEN then we will stay this language that has problem to interact with the outside world. This is why having FFI in pharo-dev is important. We should be able to call mac native menu. Of course we should pay attention that we rely too much on C library but the world is getting more complex and writing everything in smalltalk is also costly. Not FFI/ALIEN can reduce our dependency to C compilation and C-writing so this is already an important step. Am I clear? Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

April 25, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] making O/Ecompletion even better

by Sean P. DeNigris

I just dug up MacVim to double-check... I also always found not adding a space after completion to flow better than having to delete the space at the end of the word, even if it may require a few extra key strokes over the course of a line; because I don't have to do a mental double hop to 'correct the correction' and my finger is right on the spacebar anyway. Otherwise, I agree it works awesomely well :) Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/making-O-Ecompletion-even-better-tp2064224p2064393.ht… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

April 25, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: Easy SqueakVM build

by Mariano Martinez Peck

thanks :) I was in the airport. I couldn't test it. I parse and compile it with my mind it three times...and I thought "how this can be working?" :) 2010/4/25 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > > > 2010/4/25 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > > Excellent. There is something I dont understand.... (probably because my >> shell scripts are very limited) >> > > What I don't understand is that it works with this soooo stupid error :) > Fixed and committed. Thanks. > > Laurent Laffont > > > >> >> When you do: >> >> echo "Download PharoCore 1.0" >> if [ ! -e $pharo_archive ]; then >> wget $download_url >> fi >> >> >> >> but... download_url is >> >> download_url=" >> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26775/$pharo_archive" >> >> and $pharo_archive is >> >> pharo_archive=$pharo_dir.zip >> >> and $pharo_dir is >> >> pharo_dir=$working_dir/$pharo_version >> >> >> and finally, $working_dir is >> >> working_dir=`pwd`/out >> >> So...I don't understand how $download_url can be >> >> >> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26775/PharoCore-1.0-10517.zip >> >> Cheers >> >> Mariano >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2010/4/20 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >> >>> If some people are interested ... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Laurent Laffont >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >>> Date: Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:16 PM >>> Subject: Easy SqueakVM build >>> To: Squeak Virtual Machine Development Discussion < >>> vm-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I've written a script to build the squeak vm from scratch on Linux in one >>> command. It's here http://github.com/lolgzs/easy_squeakvm >>> To build the VM, just get the the script and >>> ./easy_squeakvm.sh >>> >>> This will >>> - checkout squeakvm sources from svn repository >>> - download PharoCore image >>> - load VMMaker into PharoCore >>> - generate the interpreter >>> - build the VM >>> - put binaries in out/squeakvm, ready to use >>> >>> I was tired of typing the same commands over and over :) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Laurent Laffont >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

April 25, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Re: Need your help filling a FAQ

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> >> - what is the representation that you use to convert it to assembly? >> byteocde or ast >> if AST which one? RBAst? >> > > A NativeBoost package using AsmJit library > (http://www.squeaksource.com/AsmJit) for generating native code. > Its been ported from AsmJit project (http://code.google.com/p/asmjit/) > written in C. I was more thinking if you analyze the method AST and automatically generate x86. But I think that you do it by hand right :)

April 25, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Re: Need your help filling a FAQ

by Igor Stasenko

On 25 April 2010 15:04, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > super cool :) > Questions: > Â Â Â Â - does it work on mac, linux..? Currently supported is only Win32 platform. It should be easy to port plugin on any other platform, which based on x86 architecture. Porting plugin on x64 or other archs will require additional work. Also, it requires a change in VM virtual memory allocation (a memory, which used for squeak object memory), to allow execution of native code. It won't work on platforms, where VM will be unable to control what regions of memory is executable and what is not (as well as any other JIT implementation). > Â Â Â Â - how to enable it? 1. Build a VM with NativeBoost plugin, and you have it. Also, plugin can be made external, so you can use it as any other plugin. 2. On image side , it requires a small change to CompiledMethodTrailer, to add a new trailer kind for methods, to allow methods to hold a native code and to easily work with it (encode/decode etc). You can put any native code (bytes) into a method's trailer from any sourse. Just make sure that your method using a NativeBoost's primitive: <primitive: 'primitiveNativeCall' module: 'NativeBoostPlugin'> > Â Â Â Â - why did you choose ffi and not alien? You don't need either of them to run native code. FFI stands for Foreign Function Interface, and NativeBoost project will have own interface for generating foreign function calls using native code. It having dependencies from FFI-Kernel package, but ultimately, they can be avoided. Its using FFI to simply not duplicate the code and for some testing. > Â Â Â Â - does it work on pharo? It can be used in any fork , where we already having a compiled methods trailers adopted. Pharo is supported. > Â Â Â Â - what is the representation that you use to convert it to assembly? > byteocde or ast > if AST which one? RBAst? > A NativeBoost package using AsmJit library (http://www.squeaksource.com/AsmJit) for generating native code. Its been ported from AsmJit project (http://code.google.com/p/asmjit/) written in C. By using a small AsmJit library you can emit almost any x86 instruction directly to generate native code from them. So, there currently no any platform-neutral DSL (and therefore AST) for representing a native code in more platform-neutral and abstract way. An AsmJit can be used as a basis for making a more advanced/abstract compiler/parser, as well as one can use any other JIT implementation which can translate some intermediate instructions into native code. > Stef > Thanks for questions! -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

April 25, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] making O/Ecompletion even better

by Sean P. DeNigris

StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > So it would be good if we could eat the current text when doing the > substitution. > I would add one twist to that: only if the remaining part of the word matches the tail end of the selected completion. Equally as disruptive as what you correctly discribed is: bar foo... ^ cursor Then I type meta the system proposes metaclassDefinedSelector I type enter and I get metaclassDefinedSelector foo Where is my bar!!! Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/making-O-Ecompletion-even-better-tp2064224p2064362.ht… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

April 25, 2010