March 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Hello squeakers

by GÃ¶ran Krampe

Fernando olivero wrote: > Hi Stef, i totally agree with the purpose and contents of the email. > > Just a remark, i don't know when you sent it. But i'm subscribed to the squeak-dev list and don't see your email posted. > Maybe it's a problem with my account, but i think its worth asking if anyone else has received it. It came through: http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-March/147697.ht… regards, GÃ¶ran

March 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Useless Netwoking classes?

by Marcus Denker

On Mar 26, 2010, at 12:03 PM, Bouraqadi Noury wrote: > On 24 mars 10, at 16:51, Marcus Denker wrote: > >> >> On Mar 24, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Bouraqadi Noury wrote: >> >>> InternetConfiguration >> >> >> this one is in the startup list, on Macos. >> > It is then strange (bug) that I get an empty references set for it, especially that I'm on Mac too. > The problem is that the class as an Object is registered with the startup logic. (someone called "Smalltalk addToStartUpList:" at some point in the past). This could be detected, a safe delete would check for: References, subclasses, instances and and known pointers like this. But in general, using reflection will give you situations where static analyis fails. e.g. (Smalltalk classNamed: 'Obj', 'ect') is a use of Object, but hard to detect, especially if the string is the result of some real computation. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

March 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Hello squeakers

by Fernando olivero

Hi Stef, i totally agree with the purpose and contents of the email. Just a remark, i don't know when you sent it. But i'm subscribed to the squeak-dev list and don't see your email posted. Maybe it's a problem with my account, but i think its worth asking if anyone else has received it. Fernando On Mar 26, 2010, at 12:19 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Hi guys > > I decided to send this mail with my name because I believe that. I asked marcus and adrian to look at it but it only engage me and not > you. I thought that it was important for me to say something :) > > > Stef > > > On Mar 26, 2010, at 12:17 PM, stephane ducasse wrote: > >> Dear Squeakers >> >> I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. >> So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise. >> >> First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure >> that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the >> past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than >> 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit >> Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk. >> >> So what are my dreams? >> >> For Pharo >> ====== >> We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation that makes other dynamic language jealous. >> We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. >> We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications. >> >> Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the system should be clean, robust and flexible. >> Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental. >> >> About innovation I mean in no order: >> Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, >> new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model >> without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, >> I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply. >> >> About clean >> Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance >> variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder... >> >> Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/ >> >> About Etoys >> ======== >> I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. >> Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it >> does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise. >> >> >> About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo >> ====================================== >> Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP >> will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. >> People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I >> found the red pill :) >> >> *I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or >> on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. >> Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I >> will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG >> we are doing a great job. >> >> About cross dialect energy >> ================= >> Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo >> but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a >> lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you >> pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision >> we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. >> Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too. >> >> If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :) >> >> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk >> The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves). >> >> Stef > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Hello squeakers

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi guys I decided to send this mail with my name because I believe that. I asked marcus and adrian to look at it but it only engage me and not you. I thought that it was important for me to say something :) Stef On Mar 26, 2010, at 12:17 PM, stephane ducasse wrote: > Dear Squeakers > > I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. > So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise. > > First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure > that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the > past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than > 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit > Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk. > > So what are my dreams? > > For Pharo > ====== > We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation that makes other dynamic language jealous. > We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. > We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications. > > Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the system should be clean, robust and flexible. > Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental. > > About innovation I mean in no order: > Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, > new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model > without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, > I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply. > > About clean > Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance > variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder... > > Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/ > > About Etoys > ======== > I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. > Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it > does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise. > > > About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo > ====================================== > Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP > will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. > People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I > found the red pill :) > > *I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or > on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. > Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I > will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG > we are doing a great job. > > About cross dialect energy > ================= > Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo > but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a > lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you > pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision > we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. > Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too. > > If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :) > > https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk > The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves). > > Stef

March 26, 2010

[Pharo-project] Hello squeakers

by stephane ducasse

Dear Squeakers I want to send you a message because I estimate Squeakers and I want to open the door to see how new relationship can be build. So consider that as an open hand - even if my english may let you think otherwise. First, Pharo is not against Squeak. We forked because we believed that we could not make Squeak move in any coherent direction. We are sure that you understand our reasons. Just think a moment about the amount of time and energy we invested in Squeak in the past (I wrote more than anybody else books on squeak, build tutorials, lecture support, videos....- with esug over the years we spent more than 30 kEuros in Squeak related actions) so deciding to go for Pharo was not an easy choice but a necessary one: At one point I was thinking to quit Smalltalk and go to see Ruby and Python for real. Pharo is the only way that I get back my fun in Smalltalk. So what are my dreams? For Pharo ====== We want a clean, lean and fast Smalltalk. An implementation that makes other dynamic language jealous. We want a place where we/you can innovate. We want people to be able to invent THEIR future. We want a place where people can make money with it and build robust applications. Being able to experiment fast is important but for that the system should be clean, robust and flexible. Having a platform for experimentation requires that the platform is not experimental. About innovation I mean in no order: Support for multitouch screen, bootstrappable Smalltalk, immutability bit and its impact, ephemerons, new module system?, first class instance variables, using traits for real (like in ruby where any class can be a model without inheriting from model), VAT-like system?, event system like in AmbiantTalk?, I put ? because some of these should be implemented assessed tested... and understood deeply. About clean Clean network, clean event system, clean object kernel, better compiler (open - we got first class instance variable with no runtime penalties in one afternoon). Clean class builder... Now enough about Pharo. http://www.pharo-project.org/ About Etoys ======== I love Etoys (we translated the book and did more presentations of etoys than most squeakers) but I do not like its implementation. Why? Because it is bad. Any body that looks at it knows it. When I removed Etoys part from Pharo I'm sad but there is no other choices. Now it does not mean that I'm against Etoys and Etoys has the Etoys 40 image (note that we collected in 3.9 most of the etoys fixes with little support from Etoyers which forked way before, we did the same with the fixes of diego of Smalltalk). But again you can judge otherwise. About the ranting or the little war between Squeak and Pharo ====================================== Frankly I'm tired about us ranting against Squeak/andreas/... and the inverse. For example Traits are cool, Javascript and PHP will probably have them as Perl-6, Scala, Fortress. Now Squeak can remove them. I have no problem with that. Seriously this is your decision. People in squeak-dev can freely say negative points about me if this helps. I decided that I will not rant nor get negative feelings about that. I found the red pill :) *I* decided that I want to head to the future. So we will not rant nor make any bad statement about the past anymore. Not even report history or on old facts: if you were there you should remember, else there is the archive :). This is my last mail on the past. Frankly I have the best job I can dream about. I'm lucky just check my h-index for the fun, I have more than most researchers I know. In addition, I loved working and learning from people like lukas, adrian, nicolas, levente, marcus, ..... The next 10 years should be the best of my life and I will take advantage of that. I want to have **10/15** years of pure fun and I will do it. I want and will create positive energy. Look at ESUG we are doing a great job. About cross dialect energy ================= Now the key point of this mail. I **deeply** appreciate the attitude of people like nicolas, levente, and igor that do not bash us and help Pharo but also Squeak. I sent this message mainly because of their attitude. I'm sad to see all this (their) energy duplicated. We cleaned and improved a lot Pharo over the last two years (more than you may think) and we will continue. Squeak could have benefitted from it. Nicolas luckily for you pushed a lot of our fixes in Squeak already. I'm getting the fixes of Squeak that are interesting for Pharo. Now depending on the Squeak vision we could share some common things. May be we can build a better future together but not at all price. You see our goals is to get a clean, lean, flexible and robust system. If you want to share something with us let us know. You know now the vision of Pharo. Squeak may want to compete with us too. This is ok too. If you want to help us building our vision you are welcome. Our logo is a lighthouse and it means that it will stand and last long because it has to guide boats. So we will continue Pharo against tempests and giant waves :) https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26678/pharoVideo.zip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2LeNBY_5gk The video is really cool (dan this is the one you wanted on waves). Stef

March 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Useless Netwoking classes?

by Bouraqadi Noury

On 24 mars 10, at 16:51, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On Mar 24, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Bouraqadi Noury wrote: > >> InternetConfiguration > > > this one is in the startup list, on Macos. > It is then strange (bug) that I get an empty references set for it, especially that I'm on Mac too. Noury > The idea is that it sets to proxy automatically.... considering that > this is needed as SCG, > just imagine how much good this class did for Squeak and Smalltalk > (and Research! Humanity!) > over the last 4 years... > > When I added it, people mentioned that "it's not perfect" and thus > it should not be added to 3.9, > but, as one can imagine, nothing better has been ever proposed. > > Marcus > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Problem with TransformationMorph

by Henrik Johansen

On Mar 26, 2010, at 11:37 27AM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> If the text background color is consistent, it should be fakeble in image. >> Otherwise I'd reckon it requires more BitBlt fixes. > > Ok, converting the string morph to a bitmap works indeed. The text is > readable. However the transparency does not work. > > I hope the VM gets fixed :-) > >> Look at the text in a rotated browser first, that's the result you can expect. >> Basic way would be to instead of rendering the text glyphs rotated, render the glyphs on top of a bitmap of the proper rotated background, then rotate that opaque bitmap instead. >> Not a perfect solution by any means, but it can be done if you're desperate enough... waiting for VM fixes can take a looooong time :( > > Are there any examples for that? > > Lukas CornerRounder works this way. These are the basic steps (performed in method roundCornersOf: on: in: displayBlock: borderWidth: corners: ) 1. copy bits below to a bitmap. 2. render normal corner to bitmap 2. 3. mask out the rounded bits in bitmap 2. 4. render bitmap2 on top of bitmap1. 5. display the composite on screen. You'd probably skip 2 and 3 for text, replace 4 with "render text", and add: 2. rotate bits -X degrees 4.5 rotate bits X degrees. Cheers, Henry

March 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [update 1.1] #11296

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

gorgeous! Stef > StÃ©phane Ducasse a Ã©crit : >> 11296 >> ----- >> >> Issue 2208: Preferences setting >> * range setting: bad widget height in the SettingBrowser >> * improve TimeProfiler (MorphTreeMorph example) > Few words about that: > TimeProfiler is a improvement of the current TimeProfileBrowser. > just try it: > TimeProfiler new openOnBlock: [ 10 timesRepeat: [Transcript show: 'n' asString, String cr]]. > or simply > TimeProfiler new open > and then type-in the code you want to profile. > > For now, it is in the Morphic-MorphTreeWidget-Examples sys cat, > maybe it can replace TimeProfileBrowser in the core. > what do you think ? > > Cheers > Alain > > > <Time profiler.png>_______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Stateful Traits Literature

by Simon Denier

On 25 mars 2010, at 23:26, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > I agree. Most of our extensions are really complex. > > In my opinion, traits must define variable. Else it defeats the whole purpose of having a better modularity. Each time I use traits, I need variables. > > The solution of Visualworks was quite simple, and I think it makes sense in most of the practical cases: when you compose traits, you simply concatenate the variables defined in the composed traits with the variables defined in the class. Duplicated names are then removed. Easy. Funny, I also need state when I use traits, but in a more conservative approach: by default, I prefer states to be separated and possibly duplicated. I think it's easier to notice that state needs to be shared than to notice a weird bug happens because state is shared in a wrong way. If you need state to be shared, it's easy to refactor the accessors to access the same state. But it's my completely insubstantial opinion (it's a deal between sharing states to have easy consistency and having compatible constraints (pre/post conditions) on shared state) As for the argument with recompiling methods, it's the same deal right now because required methods need to be overridden right? The rule of thumb is that you should not access state directly, but only through pure accessors. So only pure accessors need to be recompiled. But the stuff discussed by Markus could be helpful. As for traitInitialization, I have my ideas but I guess there is no silver bullet. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > > On 25 Mar 2010, at 17:19, Stefan Marr wrote: > >> Hi Alexandre: >> >> >> Thanks. >> I have read all these papers already, but kind of hoped that there is something I missed so far. >> >> On 25 Mar 2010, at 23:00, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>> "Stateful Traits and their Formalization" http://scg.unibe.ch/scgbib?_k=OiaJOIuA&query=Berg08e&display=abstract >>> => It describes stateful traits >>> >>> "User-Changeable Visibility: Resolving Unanticipated Name Clashes in Traits" http://scg.unibe.ch/scgbib?_k=NNRwidu5&query=freezable+traits&display=abstr… >>> =>Freezable traits >>> >>> "Adding State and Visibility Control to Traits using Lexical Nesting" http://scg.unibe.ch/scgbib?_k=J-wbMltV&query=tom+cutsem+bergel >>> => Traits for a class-less language >> My problem is, that these proposals involve a lot additional complexity. >> And, Tom's paper is not really applicable to PHP. PHP just does not have a real notion of lexical context. >> >> Thanks >> Stefan >> >> >> >> -- >> Stefan Marr >> Software Languages Lab >> Vrije Universiteit Brussel >> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium >> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr >> Phone: +32 2 629 2974 >> Fax: +32 2 629 3525 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Simon

March 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Problem with TransformationMorph

by Lukas Renggli

> If the text background color is consistent, it should be fakeble in image. > Otherwise I'd reckon it requires more BitBlt fixes. Ok, converting the string morph to a bitmap works indeed. The text is readable. However the transparency does not work. I hope the VM gets fixed :-) > Look at the text in a rotated browser first, that's the result you can expect. > Basic way would be to instead of rendering the text glyphs rotated, render the glyphs on top of a bitmap of the proper rotated background, then rotate that opaque bitmap instead. > Not a perfect solution by any means, but it can be done if you're desperate enough... waiting for VM fixes can take a looooong time :( Are there any examples for that? Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

March 26, 2010