March 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] about code formatting in pharo

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes for tool support even if I would like to have the code of the core to be nicely and consistently formatted. Since I learned smalltalk with VW I like > someVar = someValue > | ifTrue: [self doOneThing] > | ifFalse: > | [self > | doOtherThing ; > | doYetAnotherThing. > | anotherObject doSomething] :) But I can understand that other prefer the ifTrue: [ self doOtherThing ; doYetAnotherThing. anotherObject doSomething] On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Dale Henrichs wrote: > It is obvious that a consensus will not be reached on the "one and only true format." > > If my browser displays code formatted the way I want to see it and the difference tools are format neutral (i.e., the source and target code is formatted using the same rules) there is no need to agree on a standard style. For all intents and purposes each developer's favored format _is the standard_. > > We only need to agree to disagree and then figure out how to make it possible to customize the formatter and resolve any other technical details (performance and others) that are deemed important. These are technical problems with technical solutions. > > Dale > ----- "Chris Muller" <asqueaker(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > | > Another visual problem with "[" and "]" is that they are but one > | > character, and if you place them together with something else, like > | > "[self", they lose their visual identity (btw, we read words in > | chunks > | > not by characters) and get harder to spot. It's true that some fonts > | > and extra coloring could solve this problem, but whitespace is > | always > | > the best and least invasive design weapon. > | > | Tudor, for what its worth, the white-space surrounding the blocks is > | not really at issue or discussion here. It's about formatting blocked > | code into rectangular shapes. > | > | In fact, I agree with you about your point about the whitespace. IOW, > | I prefer: > | > | someVar = someValue > | ifTrue: [ self doOneThing ] > | ifFalse: > | [ self > | doOtherThing ; > | doYetAnotherThing. > | anotherObject doSomething ] > | > | Not: > | > | someVar = someValue > | ifTrue: [self doOneThing] > | ifFalse: > | [self > | doOtherThing ; > | doYetAnotherThing. > | anotherObject doSomething] > | > | Perhaps if you looked at a longer method example, with nested blocks, > | you might be able to "see", visually, the blocks more obviously. > | Perhaps not, I don't know. > | > | Regards, > | Chris > | > | > The lines are clearly belonging together, [ is clearly observed and > | > clicking anywhere on the first line after [ will select the whole > | block. > | > > | > Yet another thing it solves is the consistency between block and > | > method. They both define behavior, and thus it would be great if > | they > | > would be treated similarly. This is better seen in the context of a > | > block with parameter: > | > > | > aCollection do: [ :each | > | > self something. > | > self somethingElse. ] > | > > | > Just like a method has the top line with the signature and the > | > parameters, a block should be the same. In this case, each is a > | > parameter and it is clearly distinct from everything else. When > | there > | > is no parameter, this is information made very clear, too (because > | of > | > the absence of anything following [ ). > | > > | > > | > An argument against this convention was that it looks like C and > | that > | > blocks are not dumb {. While I understand the built-in adversity, we > | > are talking about a visual notation that makes sense for Smalltalk > | and > | > not one that make it different from everything else around us. > | > > | > Another option would be to have: > | > boolean ifTrue: > | > [ self clearCaches. > | > self current soleInstance yada yada blah blah > | > self recomputeAngle ] > | > > | > with everything inside the block being aligned. However, this has > | the > | > problem of wasting space. One space can also be used, but only when > | > the font is monospaced, so it would not work in general. > | Furthermore, > | > it would be inconsistent or even more space wasting when it comes to > | > blocks with parameters. > | > > | > Cheers, > | > Doru > | > > | > > | > On 4 Mar 2010, at 03:38, Chris Muller wrote: > | > > | >>>> ifTrue: [ > | >>>> line1 yo. > | >>>> line2 eh ] > | >>> > | >>> Horrible, horrible, horrible ;) Poor block. The block is an > | >>> object... > | >> > | >> Exactly what I was thinking; and how some of the new editor > | features > | >> since 3.9, that seem to reify "statements". For example, clicking > | >> inside parens or square-brackets selects that statement(s). I also > | >> really enjoyed the ability to "surround", thereby creating > | additional > | >> statement-levels. > | >> > | >> The whole interaction becomes much more liked working with tiled > | code > | >> rather than a text-editor. > | >> > | >>> I think the conclusion has to be (and I can confirm that the > | >>> VisualWorks > | >>> team was equally divided) that no one formatting regime will make > | >>> every one > | >>> happy and that all regimes will make a substantial minority > | >>> unhappy. So > | >>> perhaps we should step up to having code formatted automatically > | >>> according > | >>> to tailorable preferences. > | >> > | >> > | >> > | >>> My only concern is comment formatting but the way to deal with > | that > | >>> is to > | >>> use automatic formatting and deal with comment problems as they > | >>> arise. I > | >>> always used to be concerned about e.g. comments spanning multiple > | >>> lines. > | >>> But without day to day exposure I don't think one can know how > | >>> much of an > | >>> issue it is. > | >> > | >> As someone who's logged 5-digits of hours in Squeak these last few > | >> years, I think the best thing is to just not. Let 'em wrap! Use > | >> shout to turn them light gray, so they don't really intrude on the > | >> code, but are there if you want focus on the extra prose. > | >> > | >> Unfortunately, the real problem with comments within BlockNodes is > | how > | >> they duplicate themselves within the parse-tree.. ouch! I hope > | that > | >> is what you and Nicolas were talking about or that you'll have a > | fix > | >> for that.. > | >> > | >>> One upside will be less effort reformatting when indent levels > | >>> change. Have > | >>> you noticed that Smalltalk tends to be more difficult to reformat > | >>> than C > | >>> syntax languages, I guess because of keywords? Not having to > | worry > | >>> about > | >>> this could be great. > | >> > | >> Very cool, I hope there'll be enough additional consensus to adopt > | >> these Beckian formats for Squeaks pretty-print refinement. > | >> > | >>> Of course, what format gets written to a source file could still > | be > | >>> a source > | >>> of conflict ;) We may all want our syntax to be the format of > | >>> record :) > | >> > | >> Absolutely. To not, would be the machine dictating to the user. > | >> Invoking automatic formatting is always the users choice. > | >> browseWithPrettyPrint allows readers to have it formatted > | dynamically > | >> if they wish.. > | >> > | >> Cheers.. > | >> > | >>> P.S. and don't get me started on the trailing period (putrid > | >>> excressence), > | >>> or the space between ^ and the return expression (vomitous mass). > | >> > | >> _______________________________________________ > | >> Pharo-project mailing list > | >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > | > > | > -- > | > www.tudorgirba.com > | > > | > "Live like you mean it." > | > > | > > | > _______________________________________________ > | > Pharo-project mailing list > | > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > | > > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Pharo-project mailing list > | Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB

by Dale Henrichs

Lukas, Doesn't this enter into the same territory that you are in with Seaside ... you are dealing with multiple platforms 1.0 and 1.1. The code can to be partitioned into "platform-specific" and "common" packages or you can monkey-patch for one of the platforms (presumably 1.0 should be monkey patched) and then merge on a regular basis. Metacello can be taught to distinguish between different Pharo versions, so the technicalities of having different sets of packages to load based on which version of Pharo you are running is straightforward (I do this for GemStone already). Dale ----- "Lukas Renggli" <renggli(a)gmail.com> wrote: | Sorry, forgot to add the Pharo list ... | | ---------- Forwarded message ---------- | From: Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> | Date: 4 March 2010 20:13 | Subject: Re: [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB | To: Related to the development of Moose and other related tools | <moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch> | | | I am looking into this. I reply to the Pharo list, I think the Moose | list is the wrong one. | | The refactoring engine seems to work well. All tests pass. | | OmniBrowser is more difficult. There are 7 tests failing, and there | are 8 errors. | | There is a large number of deprecated code that OB is calling. What | am | I supposed to do so that OB continues to work in Pharo 1.0 and 1.1? | Can I expect that people have the deprecated warnings disabled? | | - How are menus registered? TheWorldMenu does not exist any longer. | | - What is the replacement for #intialExtent? | | Cheers, | Lukas | | -- | Lukas Renggli | http://www.lukas-renggli.ch | | | | -- | Lukas Renggli | http://www.lukas-renggli.ch | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB

by Lukas Renggli

On 4 March 2010 20:27, Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Also why are > > Â - Utilities changeStamp > Â - Utilities timeStampForMethod: > Â - SystemNavigation allMethodsNoDoitsSelect: > > gone and what is their replacement? Ok, #allMethodsNoDoitsSelect: is easy to replace with #allMethodsSelect: that works in Pharo 1.0 and 1.1 and should be ok, because do-its are not added to a class any longer for quite a long time. The two methods #changeStamp and #timeStampForMethod: are however more serious. They both break OB and the RB (however that is not covered by tests) in subtle ways. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

March 4, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB

by Alexandre Bergel

> - Utilities changeStamp > - Utilities timeStampForMethod: > - SystemNavigation allMethodsNoDoitsSelect: > > gone and what is their replacement? > > All in all I noticed a huge performance boost. So this is really > cool :-) Indeed! Alexandre > > On 4 March 2010 20:21, Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Sorry, forgot to add the Pharo list ... >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> >> Date: 4 March 2010 20:13 >> Subject: Re: [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB >> To: Related to the development of Moose and other related tools >> <moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch> >> >> >> I am looking into this. I reply to the Pharo list, I think the Moose >> list is the wrong one. >> >> The refactoring engine seems to work well. All tests pass. >> >> OmniBrowser is more difficult. There are 7 tests failing, and there >> are 8 errors. >> >> There is a large number of deprecated code that OB is calling. What >> am >> I supposed to do so that OB continues to work in Pharo 1.0 and 1.1? >> Can I expect that people have the deprecated warnings disabled? >> >> - How are menus registered? TheWorldMenu does not exist any longer. >> >> - What is the replacement for #intialExtent? >> >> Cheers, >> Lukas >> >> -- >> Lukas Renggli >> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch >> >> >> >> -- >> Lukas Renggli >> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch >> > > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 4, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB

by Alexandre Bergel

> I am looking into this. I reply to the Pharo list, I think the Moose > list is the wrong one. Indeed. Maybe a psy can tell why I always choose the wrong list. > - How are menus registered? TheWorldMenu does not exist any longer. > > - What is the replacement for #intialExtent? I also bump into this. I do not have a satisfactory solution however. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 4, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB

by Lukas Renggli

Also why are - Utilities changeStamp - Utilities timeStampForMethod: - SystemNavigation allMethodsNoDoitsSelect: gone and what is their replacement? All in all I noticed a huge performance boost. So this is really cool :-) Lukas On 4 March 2010 20:21, Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry, forgot to add the Pharo list ... > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> > Date: 4 March 2010 20:13 > Subject: Re: [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB > To: Related to the development of Moose and other related tools > <moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch> > > > I am looking into this. I reply to the Pharo list, I think the Moose > list is the wrong one. > > The refactoring engine seems to work well. All tests pass. > > OmniBrowser is more difficult. There are 7 tests failing, and there > are 8 errors. > > There is a large number of deprecated code that OB is calling. What am > I supposed to do so that OB continues to work in Pharo 1.0 and 1.1? > Can I expect that people have the deprecated warnings disabled? > > - How are menus registered? TheWorldMenu does not exist any longer. > > - What is the replacement for #intialExtent? > > Cheers, > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

March 4, 2010

[Pharo-project] Fwd: [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB

by Lukas Renggli

Sorry, forgot to add the Pharo list ... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> Date: 4 March 2010 20:13 Subject: Re: [Moose-dev] Re: ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB To: Related to the development of Moose and other related tools <moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch> I am looking into this. I reply to the Pharo list, I think the Moose list is the wrong one. The refactoring engine seems to work well. All tests pass. OmniBrowser is more difficult. There are 7 tests failing, and there are 8 errors. There is a large number of deprecated code that OB is calling. What am I supposed to do so that OB continues to work in Pharo 1.0 and 1.1? Can I expect that people have the deprecated warnings disabled? - How are menus registered? TheWorldMenu does not exist any longer. - What is the replacement for #intialExtent? Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

March 4, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB

by Dale Henrichs

Alexandre, You _can_ load Metacello without requiring OB. The current default is to _not_ include the tools (at one point in time OB was required, but with more recent versions that is no longer the case). I just loaded ConfigurationOfMetacello into PharoCore-1.1-11239 this morning: Gofer new gemsource: 'metacello'; package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load ...doesn't help with not being able to load OB though:) Dale ----- "Alexandre Bergel" <alexandre(a)bergel.eu> wrote: | Hi all, | | Installing ConfigurationOfMetacello requires the installation of OB. | | However, OB does not properly install in Core 1.1. | Is there something we can do against that? It would be great to do | so. | | Cheers, | Alexandre | -- | _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: | Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu | ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. | | | | | | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [1.1] Object>>initialExtent

by Michael Roberts

I ran into this as well. I tried to avoid triggering the deprecation, to see if the model understood initialExtent before sending it and guarding for nil models and things like that. otherwise just dispatching to the default extent, however this is difficult because all objects understand initialExtent! i needed a method respondsToButNotInObject:... at that point I got distracted. it is ugly to do this deep respondsTo: check so I was not sure what the correct way of approaching this deprecation was. I assumed someone had a nice solution when they deprecated it? Mike On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre(a)bergel.eu> wrote: > Hi! > > I do not have a solution, but Object>>initialExtent was recently > deprecated and this causes great usability problem. This deprecation > is very valuable for a clean UI separation. However, I have a warning > deprecation each time a window is open. The reason stems from the > method: > > SystemWindow>>initialExtent > Â Â Â Â ^ model initialExtent > > For now, in my image, I suppressed this deprecation. > Again, I do not have a clean solution. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel Â http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 4, 2010

[Pharo-project] ConfigurationOfMetacello and OB

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi all, Installing ConfigurationOfMetacello requires the installation of OB. However, OB does not properly install in Core 1.1. Is there something we can do against that? It would be great to do so. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 4, 2010