March 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] VM crash on Windows

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Andreas, Stef, I agree that logs are good, especially for rare problems; sometimes just a callstack can point to a weakness that would otherwise be nearly impossible to find. I have had Dolphin apps logging for quite a long time, and have not run into problems (just had to say that...<g>). I am fairly new at running Pharo images, and even newer at running them on machines that actually work. A 500 MB log would be no problem as long as it does not itself crash the image trying to open it. Do you have any tools to parse logs? Chris Uppal wrote Ghoul for parsing Dolphin crash dumps. It parses the dump and uses current code in the image to create a debugger-like view of a single "record" (one crash) from the dump; a drop-down list allows switching between records in a given file. It would be nice to have something similar here. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Andreas Raab Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:10 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr; squeak-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] VM crash on Windows On 3/10/2010 11:40 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > did you not notice problem with the size of the log file with the appening behavior? > Because I started to have a huge file where all the crashes reports > were added one by one and I was wondering if on a server this may not be a problem (probably having a limit for the size of the report could be a good idea - but I do not know). One a production server? Do the math: 1GB of disk space costs cents. One hour of two of your engineers trying to recreate the problem or recover the information costs a few hundred bucks. That's a ratio of 10000:1. On our main server the size of the logs is 500MB going back six months or so when we reimaged it last. That's 0.1% of the disk space on the box. The other day we bought a few more TBs of cheap scratch storage which we use for throwaway VMs in QA (vmware VMs, not Squeak so it's 20+GB each). On a production server it makes no sense whatsoever to limit logging unless you're logging *excessively*. In an emergency the logs are all you have to find out what is going wrong, it's worth keeping them. Cheers, - Andreas > > Stef > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 2:12 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Andreas, >> >> I will give that a try. I think it should be active by default, but it won't matter too much once I modify the shortcuts on a few boxes. Other wish list items would be to have a similar option on Linux and to ensure that the contents of the log are concatenated vs. replaced with each crash. >> >> Thanks!! >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of >> Andreas Raab >> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:32 AM >> To: Pharo Development >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] VM crash on Windows >> >> Hi Bill - >> >> If you have problems like these consider cross-posting to squeak-dev or vm-dev. I only check Pharo in irregular intervals. >> >> On 3/8/2010 4:27 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >>> I am having a sudden problem with Pharo crashing on Windows - it's quitting on handling Seaside requests, and I'm getting **no** information. The VM pops up the output console, writes a lot of (probably useful) information to it, and then promptly exits. >> >> The issue you're seeing is caused by a recursive MessageNotUnderstood error. You can easily recreate this by doing the following: >> >> ((ProtoObject subclass: #Bummerator >> instanceVariableNames: '' >> classVariableNames: '' >> poolDictionaries: '' >> category: 'Kernel-Objects') >> superclass: nil; >> new) bummer. >> >> The reason why that doesn't result in a regular crash.dmp is that the support code (which catches the crashes and writes the dump) isn't involved at all. The interpreter just quits. >> >> Contrast this with, say the result of an FFI crash: >> >> (ExternalLibraryFunction >> name:'' module: '' callType: 0 >> returnType: ExternalType void argumentTypes: #()) >> setHandle: ((ExternalAddress new) at: 1 put: 1; yourself); >> invoke >> >> This does generate a crash.dmp since the support code can catch the problem. >> >> However, to catch the former issue you can run the vm with -log: >> <logfile> which will contain the resulting output. >> >>> The rebuttal: if it has time/ability to write information all over part of the screen, it can open a file and make sure it leaves a trace of what happened. Right? The current vms (Windows and Linux) appear to be totally disinterested in logging crashes, and that needs to change. >> >> They do if you tell 'em to. >> >> Cheers, >> - Andreas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] For those who use Nabble .... Universal Smalltalk list?

by Geert Claes

Hi Stan, To my knowledge there is no ESUG list yet but I have to say that I was just wondering the same thing since Janko and Mariano now have to cross-post to communicate any GSoC messages for those not using Nabble. Maybe ESUG can create a Google Group so I can add it to Nabble too? Cheers, Geert ps. I have contacted Nabble support to see if we can add the usenets comp.lang.smalltalk, ibm.software.vasmalltalk and comp.lang.smalltalk.dolphin to Nabble. On 11 March 2010 15:10, Stan Shepherd [via Smalltalk] < ml-node+1589003-1811128994-4908(a)n4.nabble.com<ml-node%2B1589003-1811128994-4908(a)n4.nabble.com> > wrote: > Hi Geert, is there a separate ESUG list that is not under your Smalltalk > Nabble umbrella yet? > > The Google SOC thing got very confusing very quickly; depending on who is > subscribed to which list, you may or may not see bits of a thread. (less of > an issue if you're viewing on Nabble). Do we need an overall Smalltalk list > to be used in cases like this? > > ...Stan > > ------------------------------ > View message @ > http://n4.nabble.com/For-those-who-use-Nabble-tp1310998p1589003.html > To unsubscribe from For those who use Nabble ...., click here< (link removed) >. > > > -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/For-those-who-use-Nabble-tp1310998p1589021.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] For those who use Nabble .... Universal Smalltalk list?

by Stan Shepherd

Hi Geert, is there a separate ESUG list that is not under your Smalltalk Nabble umbrella yet? The Google SOC thing got very confusing very quickly; depending on who is subscribed to which list, you may or may not see bits of a thread. (less of an issue if you're viewing on Nabble). Do we need an overall Smalltalk list to be used in cases like this? ...Stan -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/For-those-who-use-Nabble-tp1310998p1589003.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [Esug-list] Smalltalk app demo for GSoC

by Stan Shepherd

Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > 2010/3/11 Ð®ÑÐ¸Ð¹ ÐÐ¸ÑÐ¾Ð½ÐµÐ½ÐºÐ¾ <tallman(a)inbox.ru> > >> > "...to show the rest of the world what kind of things can be done in >> Smalltalk nowadays" >> >> Yes. I really hate strange situation, when people "likes" smalltalk. >> Sometimes they even make some cryptic tools for smalltalk. But, when some >> end-user application needed, they don't choose smalltalk for it. Even if >> they have a choice. Don't know about ESUG, but in RSUG (Russian Smalltalk >> Users Group) it's a common situation. >> >> Generally, I hate the situation, when it's "cool" to make system tools, >> tools for developing, tools for tools for developing, fremeworks, >> sometimes >> really very cool and usefull...but somewhy it's "not cool" to use all >> this >> staff to make real applications to solve real problems. What all this >> cool >> stuff for then, huh? >> >> > The idea is to present potential newcomers to Smalltalk with a viable >> stack that could be picked up as is, to give a >> > starting point for developing web applications. >> >> I working for SmallPOS (http://squeaksource.com/SmallPOS.html) project >> for >> some time. And it's very close to what you talking about. Even more, it >> tends to be real application, with real shop using it for trading. I made >> it >> opensource for exactly same reason - to show possibilities, to give an >> example can be used to learn, to give a starting point to not start new >> application from scratch and finally - fight this strange situation with >> rarely practical application of smalltalk. >> >> > edit >> > copy >> > search >> > display in list >> > display in report >> > a stuff or a list of stuff. >> >> Yes, all this and lot of details. I trying to use >> Magritte+GLORP+Seaside+Scriptaculous enviroment. It was a good (and >> unexpectedly painfull) practical experience. So, you can find: >> - generating of lists and tree-like lists from magritte descriptions >> - list filters and list fast searches based on magritte descriports, too >> - custom magritte descriptors, components and memento, custom magritte >> renderers and, generally, how to use Magritte descriptions for something >> new, not-yet-implemented >> - using both full-generated, full-customized and _partially-customized_ >> (you don't touch component's structure, and you uses magrittes field >> editors, but you can fully control when they situated) web-forms >> - using web-forms with table parts inside them >> - nested editing (to add Order you need add person, to add person, you >> need >> to add City it lives at, to add a City you need to add a Country and so >> on) >> - using GLORP with sometimes not-trivial mappings (not VERY untrivial I'm >> sorry) >> - using (custom magritte) mementos to fight the absence of nested >> UnitOfWorks in GLORP, so nested editing becomes possible >> - using AJAX to make interactive - and painless - webforms. You just >> added >> list of affected fields in metadescriptor of given field - and they will >> be >> updated via AJAX when form will be generated. >> - using KomHttpServer to host files like icons and CSS-styles. >> >> I beleive this list will be expanded 'till GSoC will begins. So, maybe it >> will help to solve problem >> >> > The only thing I am concerned a bit is the scope of the project. It >> seems >> quite big. >> >> Maybe using SmallPOS as a basis will make things easier and faster, and >> avoid some already-made efforts. Well, SmallPOS is not "web shop", it's >> POS, >> but it should be quite posible - and even not too hard - to convert it >> into >> webshop. I especially tried to keep it as modular as possible. I want to >> try to use another persistence level and another GUI one day. >> >> Another problem necessary to solve is: I try to keep code more or less >> clean, but due to time restrictins I can't totally avoid fast dirty >> tricks. >> I just trying to mark them for future fixes :) >> >> Next, I absolutely do not worried about internationalisation. Taking into >> account SmallPOS practically (maybe even totally) have no hardcoded >> labels >> (they all comes from magritte descriptors or from domain-specific >> webforms) >> it's not a conceptual problem, but it makes fast education virtually >> impossible for non-russians. >> >> Finaly, PayPal prohibits receiving money for russian users, so I can't >> make >> a paypal connector for e-business...I just can't test it ;) >> >> So there are still a lot of work for a student, but, utilising ready >> results it may make things much easier - or, as an option, it make >> possible >> to reach much more shining results with great efforts ;) >> > Hi Ð®ÑÐ¸Ð¹ ÐÐ¸ÑÐ¾Ð½ÐµÐ½ÐºÐ¾ ( is that Tallman? - I got your reply third hand via different lists ;) ) I wasn't aware of SmallPOS, and indeed it sounds like it could be a great starting point for such a project. I'll try to load it up soon; are there any screenshots etc available? I'm glad you've used Magritte for it. Could this act as an abstraction layer for the GUI side? I ask because there seems more action in JQueryUI than Scriptaculous in the Seaside world. It would be perfect if the reference application could be GUI agnostic. Similar argument for persistence back-end. re internationalisation, & putting on a marketing hat for a moment, the name sounds a lot like the fatal disease smallpox. If you're willing to consider rebranding, that could be worth considering. It could be the sort of thing people only notice once your application becomes well known, and then rebranding is difficult. Also re internationalisation, it could be a nice to have feature that people could provide translations for a given phrase in their own language, from within the application. Not hard to do I think, but perhaps would need to be moderated. Thanks for the suggestion, and for supporting the idea, ...Stan -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Google-Summer-Of-Code-2010-news-tp1582769p1588990.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

March 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [update 1.1] #11257

by Adrian Lienhard

Makes sense. I added 1.0 and 1.1 tags. Adrian On Mar 11, 2010, at 14:34 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > >> Can we apply the script in issue 1850 to 1.0 and 1.1 >> to add the repo with metacello configs as one of >> the standard repos. Would really be a time saver >> and close one bug ;) >> >> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1850 >> >> > +1 for both 1.0 and 1.1 :) > > >> Thx >> T. >> >> >> -- >> GMX DSL: Internet, Telefon und Entertainment fÃ¼r nur 19,99 EUR/mtl.! >> http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [update 1.1] #11257

by Marcus Denker

On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Can we apply the script in issue 1850 to 1.0 and 1.1 > to add the repo with metacello configs as one of > the standard repos. Would really be a time saver > and close one bug ;) > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1850 > > > +1 for both 1.0 and 1.1 :) > I will do that tonight... I will check this, too: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1967 Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.

March 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [update 1.1] #11257

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Can we apply the script in issue 1850 to 1.0 and 1.1 > to add the repo with metacello configs as one of > the standard repos. Would really be a time saver > and close one bug ;) > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1850 > > +1 for both 1.0 and 1.1 :) > Thx > T. > > > -- > GMX DSL: Internet, Telefon und Entertainment fÃ¼r nur 19,99 EUR/mtl.! > http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 11, 2010

[Pharo-project] Collection

by stephane ducasse

Hi guys tristan is a new student here and he would like to work on collection optimization and implementation. I would like the get some ideas from you. - are there some collections that would be cool to improve? - are there some collections that would be cool to have and that we do not have yet? If you have any idea related to optimizations let me know. Stef

March 11, 2010

[Pharo-project] [ANN] Trax downloads

by Stephen Pair

I have made the source code (as well as a pre-loaded image) for Trax available here: http://squeak.pairhome.net/trax Trax is a general object versioning system for Squeak. As of right now, I've only tried to run it in Squeak 3.9. It also depends on the pinesoft widgets. If anyone is interested in porting this forward to any other version of squeak, let me know. Regarding the extension of Trax to store Monticello packages, I had considered storing individual methods in the repository instead of MC packages, but always felt that computing the SHA-1 on potentially a large number of methods when committing a package would be prohibitively expensive (but would have clear space advantages because new versions of packages might only change a few methods). Due to the interest in doing that by someone conversing with me off-list, I reconsidered. Then it occurred to me that you could use the SHA-1 as the source pointer for methods and compute it at the time a method is saved. It also means that you could discard the sources and changes files and simply use a Trax repository for storing method source code. Furthermore, it opens up the possibility of committing objects to a repository that capture and create a content based address (a SHA-1) to the entire bundle of source code in an image. If anyone is interested in working on such an experiment, let me know. - Stephen

March 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] MIT strikes back (was Re: [smalltalk-research] Re: [Esug-list] Google Summer Of Code 2010 news!!!)

by Stephen Pair

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:37 PM, Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2010/3/10 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > >> What the starting point is will depend on to what extent Cog has > >>>> been open sourced (Teleplace may choose to open source > >>>> single-threaded Cog initially, keeping back the threaded FFI for > >>>> a while, it may not open source Cog at all; we'll see :) ). > >>> May be I the only one to notice the:) which I have problem to > >>> understand since for me it announces that COG may not be > >>> open-source. > >> > >> Isn't this what you wanted to allow companies to do, when you chose the > >> MIT license? I don't understand, why should you care? > > We shouldn't. Well, except if previous annoucements strongly > suggested this would be the case... > > >> > >> I see some irony... > > Not me. Freedom of choice is a political attitude. I understand GPL goal > but I > > do not adhere to it. I respect people pushing it but not in my way. I'm > not sure > > that we should debate that here but we do not have the single answer. > > > > > > Not sure the goals differ much, but indeed these are two radically > different strategies. > The question is: would COG have ever started under a GPL derivative? > Who knows? > Since it did not happen, current choice is between an hypothetical > something MIT or nothing... > Bah, at least we already get a closure VM in Squeak. I would guess that Cog would not have started because if squeak were under GPL, squeak wouldn't have been used by Teleplace to begin with...of course, that's just speculation on my part (and Cog may very well have gotten started under different circumstances). I actually appreciate the role that the GPL played in the evolution of the GNU Unix tools. Without GPL, the Unix vendors would very likely have simply co-opted that code and sucked the life out of the GNU project very early on. I don't believe GPL should be used for squeak however (and I think there are general problems with that license as it relates to Smalltalk code (i.e. it was written with C like linking in mind)). What I believe is needed is a license that has time limited, GPL like requirements for sharing enhancements and after that time period reverts to a pure and simple MIT license (where the conversion date can be chosen by the author). It is essential that such a date be specified in the license upon initial release. Each new version would also come under a new license that could have a timeout further into the future. That would help ensure that a project isn't co-opted early on by commercial interests while simultaneously ensuring that at a defined point in time, it becomes available for anyone to use without any restrictions of any kind (except the limitations on liability in the MIT license). It also would not preclude commercial interests from paying for a different license in that early period. - Stephen

March 11, 2010