December 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Why Smalltalk ? Which Smalltalk ?

by Dmitri Zagidulin

Everyone, Thank you for an great discussion! I'm the author of the post in question, and I appreciate you clearing up my misconceptions. At the time that I found out about the Pharo project, those were the differences that I could find, from Wikipedia (and i suspect i also misunderstood what it was saying). I've edited the post in light of this discussion. I do want to fully understand though. What are the technical differences between Squeak and Pharo? And what are some of the reasons you choose to work in it? Thanks, Dmitri Zagidulin On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > In fairness to the blogger, it is not a stretch to go from Alan Kay's involvement in Squeak's origins to it's having started for the educational benefit of children. Â Early education has been a major focus of Alan's career. Â He probably WAS thinking "damn, this could be the dynabook that we would give to kids!" Â OLPC anyone? Â It was hardly a false statement; it's at best a difference of opinion. > > > > >

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Why Smalltalk ? Which Smalltalk ?

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

In fairness to the blogger, it is not a stretch to go from Alan Kay's involvement in Squeak's origins to it's having started for the educational benefit of children. Early education has been a major focus of Alan's career. He probably WAS thinking "damn, this could be the dynabook that we would give to kids!" OLPC anyone? It was hardly a false statement; it's at best a difference of opinion.

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Z3950 on OSX: module yaz3 not found

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Hi Laurent, Thanks for the feedback, I've uploaded the repository with the missing method but I cannot reproduce the crash in Windows. Have you unmangled every function name tested? Are you running just the Z3950FFILibraryTest? Notice the Z3950FFIServerLibraryTest tests are performed against a Z39.50 server running in local host, otherwise will fail (however that shouldn't crash the VM), so you may want to run only the Z3950FFILibraryTest suite. If you or anyone want a local Zebra server for Win32 - although most configuration files should work with other platforms - for testing purposes please let me know. Does the Kant test crash the VM too? Z3950Client new server: #Acadia; query: ( Z3950Query new author: 'Kant' ). (see http://67.222.12.200:8889/WebOpus/52 for sample successful results) I will set up a Linux box tomorrow and try to reproduce there. Cheers, 2010/12/22 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com>: > Hi Hernan, > finally I switch back to Linux to make it work, OSX gives me headaches. > So on linux the yaz module is found. I get the "Unable to find function > address" but I found that writing: > <cdecl: ZOOMOptions 'ZOOM_options_create' (void) module: 'yaz'> > instead of > <cdecl: ZOOMOptions '_ZOOM_options_create@0' (void) module: 'yaz3'> > works. If I understand, function names are not mangled when compiling with > gcc on Linux. > > Trying to run tests I've also had a "could not coerce arguments" in > Z3950FFILibrary>>createConnectionTo:port because Z3950TestCase>>portNumber > answers a String and > <cdecl: ZOOMConnection 'ZOOM_connection_new' (char* short) module: 'yaz'> > so it's waiting for a short. I've replaced portNumber to answer a > SmallInteger. > And now the image crashes on connectionIsIdle call: > write(1, "\ncreateConnectionTo:port:", 25) = 25 > write(1, "\nconnectionIsIdle:", 18) Â Â = 18 > rt_sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, [ABRT], NULL, 8) = 0 > write(1, "\n", 1) Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â = 1 > tgkill(25830, 25830, SIGABRT) Â Â Â Â Â = 0 > --- SIGABRT (Aborted) @ 0 (0) --- > > Any idea ? > > Laurent Laffont > > On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 7:58 AM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> The module is found ! How: >> - Using VM Squeak 5.8b12 2 Â (instead of Cog or the VM provided in Seaside >> One-Click image) >> - go inÂ Squeak\ 5.8b12\ 2.app/Contents/Resources/, then ln -s >> /usr/local/lib/libyaz.3.dylib . >> Now I have the "Unable to find function address" you have talked earlier >> :) I will look at the mangled function names. >> >> Laurent Â --- on the road to the FFI mountain. >> >> On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 6:59 AM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand >> <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Laurent, >>> I forward this e-mail to the squeak mailing list, may be someone there >>> have a better idea how the OSX VM works. BTW there are more >>> commentaries here >>> >>> http://forum.world.st/squeak-dev-Alien-amp-Squeak-FFI-issues-on-Snow-Leopar… >>> Cheers, >>> >>> HernÃ¡n >>> >>> 2010/12/20 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com>: >>> > Hi Hernan, >>> > the strace equivalent on OSX seems to be dtruss (yes I'm learning OSX >>> > too :) >>> > sudo dtruss -p [pid of process] >>> > in the trace I have this: >>> > >>> > stat("/Users/laurentlaffont/Downloads/Seaside.app/Contents/Resources/yaz3.bundle/Contents/MacOS/yaz3\0", >>> > 0xBFF59440, 0xBFF5AB28) = -1 Err#2 >>> > >>> > stat64("/Users/laurentlaffont/Downloads/Seaside.app/Contents/Resources/yaz3.bundle/Contents/MacOS/yaz3\0", >>> > 0xBFF5892C, 0xBFF5AB28) = -1 Err#2 >>> > >>> > stat("/Users/laurentlaffont/Downloads/Seaside.app/Contents/Resources/yaz3\0", >>> > 0xBFF59440, 0xBFF5AB28) = 0 0 >>> > >>> > stat64("/Users/laurentlaffont/Downloads/Seaside.app/Contents/Resources/yaz3\0", >>> > 0xBFF5892C, 0xBFF5AB28) = 0 0 >>> > >>> > open("/Users/laurentlaffont/Downloads/Seaside.app/Contents/Resources/yaz3\0", >>> > 0x0, 0x0) = 12 0 >>> > pread(0xC, "\317\372\355\376\a\0", 0x1000, 0x0) = 4096 0 >>> > close(0xC) = 0 0 >>> > >>> > stat("/Users/laurentlaffont/Downloads/Plugins/yaz3.bundle/Contents/MacOS/yaz3\0", >>> > 0xBFF59440, 0x1000) = -1 Err#2 >>> > >>> > stat64("/Users/laurentlaffont/Downloads/Plugins/yaz3.bundle/Contents/MacOS/yaz3\0", >>> > 0xBFF5892C, 0x1000) = -1 Err#2 >>> > stat("/Users/laurentlaffont/Downloads/Plugins/yaz3\0", 0xBFF59440, >>> > 0x1000) = >>> > -1 Err#2 >>> > stat64("/Users/laurentlaffont/Downloads/Plugins/yaz3\0", 0xBFF5892C, >>> > 0x1000) >>> > = -1 Err#2 >>> > >>> > so it looks like the VM is trying to find yaz3 at non standard Unix >>> > places >>> > (I don't know if it's SqueakVM or OSX related). >>> > I've createdÂ Contents/Resources/yaz3.bundle/Contents/MacOS/, put yaz >>> > lib >>> > there, ln -s libyaz.3.dylib yaz3 but no success. >>> > >>> > I've read good >>> > postÂ http://forum.world.st/FFI-Documentation-td2225150.html : >>> > >>> > Module Location - where the external library file lives >>> > Â Â Â - depends on the platform >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - Mac >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - pre Snow Leopard >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - checks VM path and common library paths >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - Snow Leopard >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - only looks in VM bundle's Resources >>> > file, you must either [5]: >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - store all external libraries >>> > there >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - ln -s path/to/library >>> > path/to/VM/Resources/library_name >>> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â - Change the VM's Info.plist >>> > "SqueakPluginsBuiltInOrLocalOnly" key from >>> > "true" to "false." >>> > >>> > For thisÂ SqueakPluginsBuiltInOrLocalOnly I suppose I need to compile a >>> > VM ? >>> > Cheers, >>> > Laurent Laffont >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 4:12 PM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand >>> > <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Hi Laurent >>> >> >>> >> I've read there is a couple of system calll monitors in MacOS, ktrace >>> >> and dtrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ktrace , >>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTrace) so you may attach to the VM and >>> >> see what's missing? >>> >> Cheers, >>> >> >>> >> HernÃ¡n >>> >> >>> >> 2010/12/20 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com>: >>> >> > Thanks Hernan. >>> >> > It still doesn't work. I've also tried to play with LD_LOAD_PATH / >>> >> > LD_LIBRARY_PATH no success.... I want to make it work so I need to >>> >> > learn >>> >> > :) >>> >> > >>> >> > For the mangled function names, on Linux and OSX there's nm. >>> >> > Here's what I get: >>> >> > $ nm -g libyaz.3.dylib | grep ZOOM_connection_create >>> >> > 0000000000046a30 T _ZOOM_connection_create >>> >> > Cheers, >>> >> > Laurent >>> >> > >>> >> > On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 6:23 PM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand >>> >> > <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Hi Laurent, >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Thanks for reporting. The correct #moduleName for MacOS was >>> >> >> missing, >>> >> >> I've uploaded a new version answering 'libyaz.3.dylib' which I >>> >> >> guess >>> >> >> is the corresponding for 'yaz3.dll' (according to >>> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_library#Naming ). >>> >> >> >>> >> >> I haven't access to a MacOS, but in Windows I've had to find the >>> >> >> mangled function names (i.e. _ZOOM_connection_create@4) so FFI can >>> >> >> find the function addresses and you don't get the classic "Error: >>> >> >> Unable to find function address". I don't know if it's related >>> >> >> since >>> >> >> talks about C++, but you may want to check >>> >> >> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3735 >>> >> >> >>> >> >> The tool I've used to find the mangled function names in Windows is >>> >> >> the Steve Miller's Dependency Walker >>> >> >> http://www.dependencywalker.com/ >>> >> >> >>> >> >> 2010/12/19 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com>: >>> >> >> > Hi, >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > I want to useÂ http://www.squeaksource.com/Z3950 >>> >> >> > Following install instructions, I've dowloaded yaz sources (I've >>> >> >> > tried >>> >> >> > 4.1.2 >>> >> >> > and 3.0.52) as it seems there's no binary for OSX, ./configure >>> >> >> > &&Â make >>> >> >> > && >>> >> >> > make install. >>> >> >> > Then using latest Seaside One Click image I've copied >>> >> >> > /usr/local/lib/*yaz* >>> >> >> > Â in Seaside.app/Contents/MacOS >>> >> >> > $ ls ~/Downloads/Seaside.app/Contents/MacOS/ >>> >> >> > Squeak VM Opt Â Â Â Â libyaz.a Â Â Â Â Â Â Â libyaz.la >>> >> >> > libyaz_icu.a Â Â Â Â Â libyaz_icu.la Â Â Â Â libyaz_server.a >>> >> >> > libyaz_server.laÂ libyaz.3.dylib Â Â Â Â libyaz.dylib >>> >> >> > Â libyaz_icu.3.dylib Â Â libyaz_icu.dylib >>> >> >> > Â libyaz_server.3.dylib >>> >> >> > libyaz_server.dylib >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > But then I have a External Module Not Found on >>> >> >> > YAZPQFFFILibrary>>createParser >>> >> >> > " YAZPQDFFILibrary default createParser " >>> >> >> > <cdecl: YAZPQFParser 'yaz_pqf_create' (void) module: 'yaz3'> >>> >> >> > ^ self externalCallFailed >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Any hint ? >>> >> >> > Cheers, >>> >> >> > Laurent Laffont -- FFI newbie >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Pharo Smalltalk Screencasts: http://www.pharocasts.com/ >>> >> >> > Blog: http://magaloma.blogspot.com/ >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> >>> >> >> -- >>> >> >> HernÃ¡n Morales >>> >> >> Information Technology Manager, >>> >> >> Institute of Veterinary Genetics. >>> >> >> National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET). >>> >> >> La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina. >>> >> >> Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799. >>> >> >> Internal: 422 >>> >> >> Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> > >> > > -- HernÃ¡n Morales Information Technology Manager, Institute of Veterinary Genetics. National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET). La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina. Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799. Internal: 422 Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 2010 - Thank you!

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

And I shouldn't forget the cool people of FAST by the effort of organize a wonderful conference each year here in Argentina. For a lot of us is the only possibility of meet a lot of you and learn really lot and lot of things. Thanks to FAST I meet Stef, Markus, Lukas, Alex, James, Eliot, Dan, Gilad, John, Gabriela, AndrÃ©s, Esteban, HernÃ¡n, Francisco, Edgar, Natalia and a LOT of other persons (sorry the names I forgot to mention) that I could never found if not in the Argentinian conference. Thanks FAST. 2010/12/22 GermÃ¡n Arduino <garduino(a)gmail.com>: > Ey, I want join also to the feelings of Sven and Laurent. > > I'm in Smalltalk from year 2000 aproximately but only in the last > years I'm achieving one of my goals that is work 100% in Smalltalk in > my small entrepreneurship dream called Arduino Software. A big part of > this history is thanks to Pharo and Seaside and lot of other cool > stuff on squeaksource. > > I think that the business orientation of Pharo was a key factor to > caught my attention and, even when I also love Squeak and its people > (a lot of us are on both sides trying to help) I have now in Pharo the > tools to fight in the commercial arena. > > Modestly I try to help in the areas I can and in the time I have and > want to say here a big big thanks to a lot of people working hard and > (as Stef said) not only in the cool part of development but also on > more boring (but needed stuff) as admin, doc, etc. > > Thank you all dear fellow of Pharo/Seaside/etc community by the effort > put in this work and for the help I received each time I needed it. > And also a BIG thanks to ESUG by the continuos effort to help in the > Smalltalk advance. > > Now we must go for more in 2011, for example in develop the next big > success on the startups market, this one with Pharo :) > > Very good 2011 to all of you! > > GermÃ¡n. > > > > > 2010/12/22 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> :) >> >> I showed Smalltalk to hilaire too :) and he was living in this lost place too :) >> >> Stef >> >> On Dec 22, 2010, at 8:55 PM, laurent laffont wrote: >> >>> Funny, I was thinking of writing such mail two hours ago back from work :) >>> >>> I join my thanks to you because I feel 2010 has been my most intense year of my programmer life. I've learned tremendous stuff, meet amazing people and have the chance to contribute a little with lot of help from the community. >>> >>> The Pharo community is great, warm, cool people: thanks Mariano, Marcus, Adrian, Torsten, Alexandre, Christoph, Doru, German, Eliot, Dale and all and all !! >>> >>> And a special special big big thank you to Stephane who showed me Smalltalk 2 years ago at RMLL in a lost place in France. I remember he told me something like "We've just started a cool thing called Pharo, stay tuned". Now I teach Pharo at University :) >>> >>> Can't wait for an amazing 2011 ! >>> >>> Laurent Laffont >>> >>> Pharo Smalltalk Screencasts: http://www.pharocasts.com/ >>> Blog: http://magaloma.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)beta9.be> wrote: >>> Since about the middle of 2010 I have been actively following Pharo and it has been an amazing time. >>> >>> These are my highlights, there are probably many others. >>> >>> 0.x became 1.0, then came 1.1 and finally 1.1.1. There has been amazing activity on 1.2. >>> >>> Seaside became 3.0. >>> >>> I learned how to deploy Seaside and manage it in production. >>> >>> I learned how to work efficiently with Monticello and SqueakSource. >>> >>> Hudson integration servers were customized and deployed for various Smalltalk projects and for Pharo itself. >>> >>> I learned how to build my own development and deployment images. >>> >>> I learned how to do load balancing and static content serving for Seaside. >>> >>> I love the Glamorous theme and the improved DejaVuBitmapFonts loader, I like the the Pro theme. >>> >>> I am successfully using Glorp and PostresV2. >>> >>> I am using the Cog VM every day. >>> >>> I simply love developing in Pharo. >>> >>> The Pharo community is just as great, from the leadership to the core developers, the dev image developers, the application and framework developers, those doing documentation, screencasts, help systems, the testers, to the countless people answering questions on this list. >>> >>> Thank you all ! >>> >>> Sven >>> >>> PS: I can't wait for 2011. >>> >>> PPS: Of course, part of the above are results of the greater Smalltalk community. Pharo is my view into this world. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 2010 - Thank you!

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

Ey, I want join also to the feelings of Sven and Laurent. I'm in Smalltalk from year 2000 aproximately but only in the last years I'm achieving one of my goals that is work 100% in Smalltalk in my small entrepreneurship dream called Arduino Software. A big part of this history is thanks to Pharo and Seaside and lot of other cool stuff on squeaksource. I think that the business orientation of Pharo was a key factor to caught my attention and, even when I also love Squeak and its people (a lot of us are on both sides trying to help) I have now in Pharo the tools to fight in the commercial arena. Modestly I try to help in the areas I can and in the time I have and want to say here a big big thanks to a lot of people working hard and (as Stef said) not only in the cool part of development but also on more boring (but needed stuff) as admin, doc, etc. Thank you all dear fellow of Pharo/Seaside/etc community by the effort put in this work and for the help I received each time I needed it. And also a BIG thanks to ESUG by the continuos effort to help in the Smalltalk advance. Now we must go for more in 2011, for example in develop the next big success on the startups market, this one with Pharo :) Very good 2011 to all of you! GermÃ¡n. 2010/12/22 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > :) > > I showed Smalltalk to hilaire too :) and he was living in this lost place too :) > > Stef > > On Dec 22, 2010, at 8:55 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > >> Funny, I was thinking of writing such mail two hours ago back from work :) >> >> I join my thanks to you because I feel 2010 has been my most intense year of my programmer life. I've learned tremendous stuff, meet amazing people and have the chance to contribute a little with lot of help from the community. >> >> The Pharo community is great, warm, cool people: thanks Mariano, Marcus, Adrian, Torsten, Alexandre, Christoph, Doru, German, Eliot, Dale and all and all !! >> >> And a special special big big thank you to Stephane who showed me Smalltalk 2 years ago at RMLL in a lost place in France. I remember he told me something like "We've just started a cool thing called Pharo, stay tuned". Now I teach Pharo at University :) >> >> Can't wait for an amazing 2011 ! >> >> Laurent Laffont >> >> Pharo Smalltalk Screencasts: http://www.pharocasts.com/ >> Blog: http://magaloma.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)beta9.be> wrote: >> Since about the middle of 2010 I have been actively following Pharo and it has been an amazing time. >> >> These are my highlights, there are probably many others. >> >> 0.x became 1.0, then came 1.1 and finally 1.1.1. There has been amazing activity on 1.2. >> >> Seaside became 3.0. >> >> I learned how to deploy Seaside and manage it in production. >> >> I learned how to work efficiently with Monticello and SqueakSource. >> >> Hudson integration servers were customized and deployed for various Smalltalk projects and for Pharo itself. >> >> I learned how to build my own development and deployment images. >> >> I learned how to do load balancing and static content serving for Seaside. >> >> I love the Glamorous theme and the improved DejaVuBitmapFonts loader, I like the the Pro theme. >> >> I am successfully using Glorp and PostresV2. >> >> I am using the Cog VM every day. >> >> I simply love developing in Pharo. >> >> The Pharo community is just as great, from the leadership to the core developers, the dev image developers, the application and framework developers, those doing documentation, screencasts, help systems, the testers, to the countless people answering questions on this list. >> >> Thank you all ! >> >> Sven >> >> PS: I can't wait for 2011. >> >> PPS: Of course, part of the above are results of the greater Smalltalk community. Pharo is my view into this world. >> >> >> > > >

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 2611 in pharo: DNU when clicking on active text in class comment

by pharo＠googlecode.com

Updates: Status: Fixed Comment #8 on issue 2611 by Torsten....(a)astares.de: DNU when clicking on active text in class comment http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2611 Yes, all class comments are plain strings. Just checked using the following code: ProtoObject allSubclasses do: [:class | (class comment class = ByteString) ifFalse: [ [Transcript cr; show: class] ]]

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 3455 in pharo: Some SystemNavigationTests failed in 1.2-Dev

by pharo＠googlecode.com

Comment #3 on issue 3455 by guillermopolito: Some SystemNavigationTests failed in 1.2-Dev http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3455 Updated last versions of the config to download this fix :)

Dec. 22, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 3447 in pharo: Do we need to menu entry "Shout Workspace"?

by pharo＠googlecode.com

Comment #6 on issue 3447 by guillermopolito: Do we need to menu entry "Shout Workspace"? http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3447 Ok, I integrated it in the last configuration version. It may be available in the next build :)

Dec. 22, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Why Smalltalk ? Which Smalltalk ?

by Jimmie Houchin

Personally I haven't read any real animosity from Levente toward Pharo in this thread. His issue was not the choice of Pharo but rather the incorrect information stated as a basis of the decision. Pharo has enough good things to represent itself without basing decisions on false data. I happen to agree with Levente about the correctness of those statements. But those were the understandings of the poster which did so without any expressed ill intent toward Squeak. People make mistakes. And to be clear as to my understanding a) removing unessential code from Squeak (Squeak, having started as a childrenâs education project, has accumulated a fair amount of cruft over the years), Squeak did not start as a children's education project. To quote the Squeak history page """ The goal was to build a system using a language as expressive and immediate as Smalltalk to pursue various application goals such as prototypical educational software, user interface experiments and another run at the Dynabook concept. """ One goal out of the three expressed was for education software, which can entail much more than children's education. The other two goals had nothing to do with education. b) clearer licensing (MIT license), Not an issue at all at the time of the post. And it is not clear that it was a real issue at the time of his decision for Pharo. In my opinion the Squeak license wasn't much of an issue for most people unless you had to answer to some corporate types. And even before Squeak became primarily MIT, it had been released under the Apache license, which a portion still remains. Squeak just happened to pursue a more challenging vetting of the source code prior to re-licensing. c) more frequent updates (think Ubuntu versus Debian), and I can see how this could be an opinion. And I see how some would disagree with it. d) being a reference implementation for the Seaside platform (perfect, exactly what I need it for). Yes, the current maintainers develop on Pharo and explicitly do not support anything else. And yes, there was a brief time that Squeak was not easily usable for Seaside. But that is no longer the case. Nor is the fact that the current maintainers using Pharo for development mean that the other ports of Seaside are any less Seaside, or less current, or less maintained. Nor does the blogger expressly state that either. Now on his blog he has edited the page to denote comments from this thread. He comments that he got these opinions from the Pharo Wikipedia entry. From that source I can see how he came to some of these conclusions. I am pro Pharo, it is what I am using to develop my business application. I am not anti Squeak. The good energy in this community needs to be based on honest truths about the benefits of Pharo. Those benefits have absolutely nothing to do with any deficiencies in Squeak. Lets keep this a pro Pharo energy, not an anti Squeak energy. A person can choose either and have made an excellent decision. There are technical differences between Squeak and Pharo. There are also vision and community differences. Plenty of real reasons to choose between them. For me, my vision and goals, Pharo is a more comfortable fit. Its a personal decision. So please, don't make me persona non grata for this post. :) And lets give Levente a break. I don't see any evil in his post. There is no wrong in seeking accurate statements. Pharo would want such from the Squeak side of things. And on to good positive energy and the fruits thereof. Jimmie

Dec. 22, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [OT] Re: Why Smalltalk ? Which Smalltalk ?

by Igor Stasenko

guys, lets just stop pouring oil into the flames because it will burn people in both camps, without any benefit to anyone. I am equivalently happy to see any good news about Squeak as well as Pharo. Come on, there is enough space in boat for both of them, not saying about other dialects. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Dec. 22, 2010