December 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Comments or no integration: a simple choice for you

by Sean P. DeNigris

I love this idea! Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > The good idae is to push and promote people to put class comments, but not > to remove not commented classes from Dev, bacause otherise, you will need > to > remove 80% of the classes. > It seemed to me this plan is being suggested precisely because "push and promote" has not produced results. In face, I would say this grand challenge is a pretty good "push" ;-) Plus, it's more fun than "trying to put more comments before the next release". Fortune favors the bold! Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Comments-or-no-integration-a-simple-choice-for-you-tp… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Comments or no integration: a simple choice for you

by Sean P. DeNigris

laurent laffont wrote: > >> IMHO, before we take such a stance, we should have a package comment pane >> and encourage its use. A complex package is probably best documented >> with a >> good high-level description and some type of example(s), which can take >> the >> form of do-its in a package comment. > > HelpSystem does this and is included in PharoCore. See > http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/09/document-with-helpsystem.html > What if the source pane in the browser showed the first page of the package's help when only a package name was selected? And there could be a shortcut/cataegory-list-menu-option to open the help browser on the package's help from the browser! Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Comments-or-no-integration-a-simple-choice-for-you-tp… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 6, 2010

[Pharo-project] [ticket #104592] j'ai l'impression que la mailing-list de pharo ne marche plus

by DEXHEIMER Benjamin via RT

Bonjour, S'agit-il bien de la liste "pharo-project" ? Si oui, le dernier message est datÃ© du "Last message date: Mon Dec 6 19:11:38 CET 2010". En parcourant l'archive par thread, il y a effectivement des messages du 6 dÃ©cembre, fin d'aprÃ¨s-midi. Pourriez-vous peut-Ãªtre prÃ©ciser les Ã©lÃ©ments qui vous laissent Ã penser Ã une panne de la liste ? Cordialement, -- BD / ET-INRIA_GForge On Fri Dec 03 22:12:07 2010, sducasse wrote: > pouvez-vous verifier? > merci > >

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Comments or no integration: a simple choice for you

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:32 PM, <csrabak(a)bol.com.br> wrote: > Mariano, > > Precisely due the size of the problem as you estimated that Stef's plan is > a Good IdeaÂ®. > The good idae is to push and promote people to put class comments, but not to remove not commented classes from Dev, bacause otherise, you will need to remove 80% of the classes. > > The next step would be a Pareto classification, as it can be accepted (I > hope) that SUnit has more history (and it is documented elsewhere, like PBE > book) than other classes which even the name of it or its methods may be > insufficient to arrive at for what is the class. > > We should create IRC meetings, sprints, etc. specially targeted to document > these classes. > > my .019999... > > -- > Cesar Rabak > > > Em 05/12/2010 20:07, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com > > escreveu: > > On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 9:52 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Hi guys > > I decided that I will not integrate any code that is not documented in > Pharo. > > I strongly suggest to remove from Pharo-dev packages whose classes are not > commented. > > > I think this is not a good idea...look this approx: > > > > | pharoCorePackages packagesDev nonCommentedClasses totalClasses | > pharoCorePackages := #('MultilingualTests' 'Morphic' 'ToolBuilder-Kernel' > 'PackageInfo' 'Polymorph-ToolBuilder' 'Network-Kernel' 'Network-Protocols' > 'Compiler' 'System-Finalization' 'Settings-Graphics' 'Collections' > 'Network-RemoteDirectory' 'Traits' 'Network-URI' 'Settings-Display' > 'Collections-Abstract' 'Settings-Compiler' 'MonticelloMocks' > 'ScriptLoader11' 'System-Digital Signatures' 'System-Localization' > 'MenuRegistration' 'Polymorph-TaskbarIcons' 'Monticello' > 'ToolBuilder-Morphic' 'MCDirtyPackage' 'Collections-Weak' > 'Settings-Polymorph' 'Tests' 'HelpSystem-Core-Utilities' 'SUnit' > 'Collections-Text' 'Compression' 'Morphic-MorphTreeWidget' 'HelpSystem-Core' > 'ToolsTest' 'Gofer-Core' 'Gofer-Tests' 'Collections-Stack' 'FreeType' > 'MonticelloConfigurations' 'Polymorph-Geometry' 'Collections-Support' > 'SUnitGUI' 'HelpSystem-Core-Model' 'Tests-VM' 'System-Change Notification' > 'System' 'Tests-ObjectsAsMethods' 'HostMenus' 'Network-MIME' > 'Network-RFC822' 'VB-Regex' 'TrueType' 'Depr > ecatedPreferences' 'System-Clipboard' 'System-Settings' 'MorphicTests' > 'System-Serial Port' 'NetworkTests' 'Collections-Unordered' 'System-Changes' > 'System-Object Storage' 'Collections-Traits' 'System-Platforms' > 'Tests-PrimCallController' 'Morphic-TrueType' 'Multilingual' 'Graphics' > 'Collections-Strings' 'KernelTests' 'System-FileRegistry' 'Tests-Bugs' > 'ToolBuilder-SUnit' 'Tests-Release' 'Morphic-Balloon' 'Settings-Network' > 'System-Applications' 'Polymorph-Tools-Diff' 'Settings-Tools' 'ScriptLoader' > 'ST80' 'FreeTypeSubPixelAntiAliasing' 'Settings-Kernel' 'Settings-System' > 'CompilerTests' 'System-Tools' 'System-Hashing' 'System-Download' > 'Collections-Streams' 'Tests-SystemChangeNotification' 'GraphicsTests' > 'Polymorph-Widgets' 'Kernel' 'Tools' 'Settings-FreeType' 'FreeTypeTests' > 'Settings-Monticello' 'HelpSystem-Tests' 'Polymorph-EventEnhancements' > 'System-Support' 'MonticelloGUI' 'System-FilePackage' 'System-Object Events' > 'Announcements' 'System-Text' 'Exceptions' 'Network- > UUID' 'System-Pools' 'FixUnderscores' 'HelpSystem-Core-UI' > 'GraphicsResources' 'Files' 'Gofer' 'Network-MailSending' > 'Collections-Arrayed' 'CollectionsTests' 'Balloon' 'Network-Url' > 'Collections-Sequenceable' ). > packagesDev := (PackageInfo allPackages > collect: [:each | each packageName]) > difference: pharoCorePackages. > nonCommentedClasses := packagesDev > inject: 0 > into: [:sum :each | sum + (((PackageInfo named: each) classes > select: [:aClass | aClass comment asString includesSubString: 'is > xxxxxxxxx.']) size)]. > Transcript show: 'nonCommentedClasses: ', nonCommentedClasses asString. > > totalClasses := packagesDev inject: 0 into: [:sum :each | sum + > (PackageInfo named: each) classes size ]. > Transcript show: 'totalClasses: ', totalClasses asString. > > > > Shows: > > nonCommentedClasses: 1116 > totalClasses: 1369 > > > I'm not sure that I will look at code or answer question to code that is > not commented. > We should change our mindset and it seems that we do not care, so we > should take radical decisions: > less changes, less progress, more comments. > > And for once I will not bash the past. Smalltalk was always with methods > fully documented. > We are just plain lazy and this is a shame. > > Stef > > > > > >

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity or not of smalltalk?

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

To add a little of data to anecdote, let me put two complimentary pointers: Talks about the "The US Department of Defense has decided to discontinue the development, maintenance, and âuse- of JAS (nee JWARS) by year end. JAS is a joint campaign model, (one that represents all the services), consisting of over 1.1 million lines of Smalltalk that has been developed over the last 15 years at a cost to the taxpayers north of $110 million." Further details: http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=gNSEzw8AAADszNgJiajay96Y7o… About Gartner's affirmations (ten years old!) http://groups.google.com/group/ibm.software.vasmalltalk/browse_thread/threa… And a case study of a company that decided _not_ switch from Smalltalk after tried to go java: http://www.nycsmalltalk.org/2009/11/return-to-smalltalk/ HTH to enlighten our discussions on these matters. -- Cesar Rabak Em 06/12/2010 14:27, csrabak(a)bol.com.br escreveu: Guillermo, While all the criticisms of yours are correct, they do not change the reality. If you take some other sources like the inventory of systems benchmarked by companies specializing in this kind of jobÂ¹, or government inventories or even the ISBSG database, you'll find Smalltalk use (which relates to 'popularity') is residual in any realm. In fact, Gartner issued some years ago a research noteÂ² and classified languages according to a "A Life-Cycle Maturity Matrix". Recently James Robertson from Cimcon managed to have Gartner to write (in a blog, however, no "Research") flattering things about Smalltalk in a context of dynamic languages. Regards, -- Cesar Rabak [1] Not so blatant advice: I used to work for Gartner and now I represent SPR. [2] TU-05-1942 "Life-Cycle Strategies for Legacy Languages", J. Duggan, Gartner, Stamford, CT, 1998. Em 06/12/2010 10:38, Guillermo Polito < guillermopolito(a)gmail.com > escreveu: JAjajaja, It's not that Indexes are not trustable...Â They are measured in a way Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: - searches in yahoo - open source projects in some webs - people asking for job The only one that surprized me is the book's one.Â But 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books library :P. 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. Cheers On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont wrote: And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it seemsÂ http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd wrote: While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and great IDE company, I got the following response (below) Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of Smalltalk? According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what "popular" means... Laurent Rgs, James. >>Hello James. >>About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, Iâm not sure Smalltalk has a big audience now. Iâve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity or not of smalltalk?

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Igor, My perceived experience in project we used freshmen from a University to work in Smalltalk for the Spatmas platform, was a little different. The persons needed about the same than the Java colleagues (which worked in a complimentary part of the project) to become proficient and productive in Smalltalk. We Smalltalkers take sometimes at face value certain things that clash in real world: the famous simplicity of the syntax (which Stef's famous postcard example) of Smalltalk is completely flared by the overwhelming complexity of the class libraries. Contrary to current belief, out of the core libraries (specially the Collection hierarchy) most of the remaining packages are not that elegant or orthogonal enough to preclude the need for digging and learning from experience, which takes as much time as any other language. As soon we get at the need to build production grade systems, we find Smalltalks advantages are not enough to make us stand out of the crowd. my 0.019999... -- Cesar Rabak Em 06/12/2010 10:44, Igor Stasenko < siguctua(a)gmail.com > escreveu: On 6 December 2010 13:38, Guillermo Polito wrote: > JAjajaja, > > It's not that Indexes are not trustable...Â They are measured in a way > Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: > > - searches in yahoo > - open source projects in some webs > - people asking for job > > The only one that surprized me is the book's one.Â But > 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books > library :P. > 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... > i think there is a lot of books because they are very complex ones :) for a smalltalk, you need just one book, and .. whooop .. you know it after few days of study. For C++ or Java it takes couple of months to learn all this stuff.. > Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. > > Cheers > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont > wrote: >> >> And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it >> seemsÂ http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. >> >> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont >> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and >>>> great IDE company, I got the >>>> >>>> following response (below) >>>> >>>> Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of >>>> Smalltalk? >>> >>> According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular >>> than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>> But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) >>> May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what >>> "popular" means... >>> Laurent >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Rgs, James. >>>> >>>> >>Hello James. >>>> >>>> >>About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, Iâm not sure Smalltalk has a big >>>> >> audience now. Iâve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>>> >>Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/ >> > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity or not of smalltalk?

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Guillermo, While all the criticisms of yours are correct, they do not change the reality. If you take some other sources like the inventory of systems benchmarked by companies specializing in this kind of jobÂ¹, or government inventories or even the ISBSG database, you'll find Smalltalk use (which relates to 'popularity') is residual in any realm. In fact, Gartner issued some years ago a research noteÂ² and classified languages according to a "A Life-Cycle Maturity Matrix". Recently James Robertson from Cimcon managed to have Gartner to write (in a blog, however, no "Research") flattering things about Smalltalk in a context of dynamic languages. Regards, -- Cesar Rabak [1] Not so blatant advice: I used to work for Gartner and now I represent SPR. [2] TU-05-1942 "Life-Cycle Strategies for Legacy Languages", J. Duggan, Gartner, Stamford, CT, 1998. Em 06/12/2010 10:38, Guillermo Polito < guillermopolito(a)gmail.com > escreveu: JAjajaja, It's not that Indexes are not trustable...Â They are measured in a way Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: - searches in yahoo - open source projects in some webs - people asking for job The only one that surprized me is the book's one.Â But 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books library :P. 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. Cheers On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it seemsÂ http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd <james_ladd(a)hotmail.com> wrote: While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and great IDE company, I got the following response (below) Â Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of Smalltalk? According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what "popular" means... Laurent Â Rgs, James. >>Hello James. >>About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, Iâm not sure Smalltalk has a big audience now. Iâve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Bad characters in update package names

by Gary Chambers

Currntly I'm doing the workaround by changing the package name in the debugger ;-) Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Bad characters in update package names As a possible workaround, an offending package might load on a Mac or Linux system. Some time back, I encountered a package (an older version of RIO) that was broken on Windows, but I was able to install it on Linux, fix the Windows code there, and then it worked. It's better to fix the real problem, but it can nice to be able to continue working. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Gary Chambers [gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:02 AM To: Pharo Development Subject: [Pharo-project] Bad characters in update package names Seems didn't get sent... Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Chambers<mailto:gazzaguru2@btinternet.com> To: Pharo Development<mailto:pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 4:02 PM Subject: Bad characters in update package names It seems that having $: in the package name for certain updates is causing the save to local package cache to error on Windows (unsurprisingly). Perhaps worth having a sanity check before the package name is accepted since it eventually gets to the filesystem. Regards, Gary

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Bad characters in update package names

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

As a possible workaround, an offending package might load on a Mac or Linux system. Some time back, I encountered a package (an older version of RIO) that was broken on Windows, but I was able to install it on Linux, fix the Windows code there, and then it worked. It's better to fix the real problem, but it can nice to be able to continue working. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Gary Chambers [gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:02 AM To: Pharo Development Subject: [Pharo-project] Bad characters in update package names Seems didn't get sent... Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Chambers<mailto:gazzaguru2@btinternet.com> To: Pharo Development<mailto:pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 4:02 PM Subject: Bad characters in update package names It seems that having $: in the package name for certain updates is causing the save to local package cache to error on Windows (unsurprisingly). Perhaps worth having a sanity check before the package name is accepted since it eventually gets to the filesystem. Regards, Gary

Dec. 6, 2010

[Pharo-project] Bad characters in update package names

by Gary Chambers

Seems didn't get sent... Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Chambers To: Pharo Development Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 4:02 PM Subject: Bad characters in update package names It seems that having $: in the package name for certain updates is causing the save to local package cache to error on Windows (unsurprisingly). Perhaps worth having a sanity check before the package name is accepted since it eventually gets to the filesystem. Regards, Gary

Dec. 6, 2010