December 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] Smalltalk in small steps ?

by James Ladd

Hi All, As some of you may know I am writing a Smalltalk for the Java Virtual Machine and it is coming along well. http://redline.st with source on http://github.com Recently I came across a series of blog posts by Peter Michaux on Scheme from scratch and I wondered: Would it be worth while for the Smalltalk community, and language enthusiasts if I were to do the same with Redline Smalltalk, that is, make each features implementation part of a blog post and a 'work along' ? Would you like to see this and or work along with Redline ? Rgs, James.

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity or not of smalltalk?

by Tudor Girba

This kind of view is nice as a joke, but I also think it tends to be counter productive. We should not kid ourselves. There are so many books because there is a market large enough to consume them. Cheers, Doru On 6 Dec 2010, at 13:44, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 6 December 2010 13:38, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> JAjajaja, >> >> It's not that Indexes are not trustable... They are measured in a way >> Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: >> >> - searches in yahoo >> - open source projects in some webs >> - people asking for job >> >> The only one that surprized me is the book's one. But >> 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books >> library :P. >> 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... >> > > i think there is a lot of books because they are very complex ones :) > for a smalltalk, you need just one book, and .. whooop .. you know it > after few days of study. > For C++ or Java it takes couple of months to learn all this stuff.. > > >> Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. >> >> Cheers >> >> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it >>> seems http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont >>> <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd <james_ladd(a)hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and >>>>> great IDE company, I got the >>>>> >>>>> following response (below) >>>>> >>>>> Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of >>>>> Smalltalk? >>>> >>>> According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular >>>> than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>>> But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) >>>> May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what >>>> "popular" means... >>>> Laurent >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Rgs, James. >>>>> >>>>>>> Hello James. >>>>> >>>>>>> About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, Iâm not sure Smalltalk has a big >>>>>>> audience now. Iâve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>>>>>> Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/ >>> >> >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Presenting is storytelling."

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo integration in enterprise feedback

by Tudor Girba

Hi, I believe Smalltalk is perceived in the following way: 1. Smalltalk is cool: 0.01% 2. What is Smalltalk?: 19,99% 3. Smalltalk is dead: 80% It is hard to convince the 2nd category to look at something new. Why should they? But, if it's hard to convince someone of something new, you need a miracle to convince someone that something is not dead. But, I think that a miracle like this can be administrated in the form of cool and kicking creatures and then tell them that they kick because of Smalltalk :) Cheers, Doru On 2 Dec 2010, at 03:49, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > Em 01/12/2010 18:50, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com> escreveu: > >> Hi, >> I think I understand your point of view, but I do not agree with it >> :). > > Fair enough! During a debate automatic agreement would not lead to an > enriched vision of the problem and more often than not would diverge > from the truth :-) > >> Moose is a valuable platform exactly because it is built in >> Smalltalk. > > I understand this is the sentiment about Smalltalk. Also, giving the > project is 13+ years old makes me assume it has started in a different > dialect of Smalltalk than Pharo. > >> Developers understand the power of Smalltalk in the >> context of Moose quite quickly after they do a couple of >> tutorials. > > The key here, I think, is "in the context of Moose". In my opinion the > litmus test for this would be evaluating how many projects _not_ related > to Moose are started in Smalltalk after this exposition occurred. > >> The result is that they end up wanting to learn >> Smalltalk. > > Which per se is an interesting achievement. However, we need it go > beyond the wanting to learn to the opportunity to be the implementation > language of some new projects in their realms. > >> In fact, I argued for quite a while that vendors should use Moose >> to promote Smalltalk. The cool thing about it is that it addresses >> directly programmers that develop in all sorts of languages >> (especially Java). This gives us a nice back door. > > I think again this is a variation of theme I mentioned in the earlier > post. The same has been said about Seaside, or other projects which I > perceive as successful as Moose (and written in Smalltalk, of course)! > > I'm afraid we're missing something essential on this: what problem Pharo > (or more generally Smalltalk) addresses better in the enterprise than > other technologies? > > If we arrive at some compelling answers to this, then I believe it would > be easy to 'sell' Smalltalk. The examples on the successful projects > then would serve to reduce the perceived risk of embarking in an imature > technology. > > my 0.019999... > > Regards, > > -- > Cesar Rabak > > >> Cheers, Doru >> >> On 28 Nov 2010, at 18:48, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: >> >>> Tudor, >>> This kind of report shows that Moose is a useful piece of >>> software. The interest in Pharo became contingent on the Moose >>> technology such as ABAP is 'widespread' in the industry because of >>> SAP ERP. >>> I think it says a lot about Moose, but is not enough to be a sales >>> argument for Pharo. >>> This leads to a common fallacy used in marketing: use "X" as all >>> successful people use "X" as well..." >>> > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Global shortcut keys in Pharo

by Sean P. DeNigris

tfleig wrote: > > Sean, what is the URL of your SqS projects page? > MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/SPDProjectUpdates' user: '' password: '' -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Global-shortcut-keys-in-Pharo-tp3072091p3075175.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity or not of smalltalk?

by Sean P. DeNigris

csrabak wrote: > > The persons needed about the same than the Java colleagues (which worked > in a complimentary part of the project) to become proficient and > productive in Smalltalk. > But by the time I was "proficient and productive in Smalltalk," I had mastered the equivalent of an OS! From threading, to windows, the main event loop - all things that were magically behind the scenes in C, C++, and even Ruby to an extent (which at the outer GUI level was down in the same mess). Whereas, it really did take only one reading to grok the syntax. csrabak wrote: > > We Smalltalkers take sometimes at face value certain things that clash in > real world: the famous simplicity of the syntax (which Stef's famous > postcard example) of Smalltalk is > completely flared by the overwhelming complexity of the class libraries. > The fact that mastering anything takes time - is orthogonal to the book issue. The majority of books I came across in C++ (and needed copies of in every office I worked, to the point where I got a $50 a month Safari books subscription) were related to the language, not the libraries - full of tips, gotchas, and other advice to not trip over the complexities of the language itself - before even considering the first library! The ease of use of a library is a function of the design skill of the library developers. But I bet you it was much easier to *write* that library than it would have been in a static language in a non-live environment ;-) Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Popularity-or-not-of-smalltalk-tp3073990p3075155.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Global shortcut keys in Pharo

by Guillermo Polito

Ok, I've uploaded version 1.1 of the configuration with some little fixes. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Downloading Keymapping from sqs... > > Gofer it > squeaksource: 'Keymapping'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfKeymapping'; > load. > (ConfigurationOfKeymapping project version: '1.0') load > > :) > > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Guillermo Polito < > guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Yes Yes Yes!!! I'll push on that! :D Let's join forces, it's better than >> be alone in the dark :). >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Tony Fleig <tony.fleig(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Sean, what is the URL of your SqS projects page? >>> >>> TF >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I remember... Sean working on KeyMapping, KeyBindings or >>> >> something like that. >>> >> >>> > >>> > Yes, I ported KeyMapping to Pharo because it seemed like the model >>> people >>> > liked best. IIRC KeyBindings probably wouldn't be too hard to port. >>> Both >>> > are on SqueakSource, but if I didn't have write access, check my SqS >>> > projects page for updated versions. >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Sean >>> > -- >>> > View this message in context: >>> http://forum.world.st/Global-shortcut-keys-in-Pharo-tp3072091p3073313.html >>> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> >

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Global shortcut keys in Pharo

by Guillermo Polito

Downloading Keymapping from sqs... Gofer it squeaksource: 'Keymapping'; package: 'ConfigurationOfKeymapping'; load. (ConfigurationOfKeymapping project version: '1.0') load :) On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Yes Yes Yes!!! I'll push on that! :D Let's join forces, it's better than > be alone in the dark :). > > > On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Tony Fleig <tony.fleig(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Sean, what is the URL of your SqS projects page? >> >> TF >> >> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >> >> >> >> I remember... Sean working on KeyMapping, KeyBindings or >> >> something like that. >> >> >> > >> > Yes, I ported KeyMapping to Pharo because it seemed like the model >> people >> > liked best. IIRC KeyBindings probably wouldn't be too hard to port. >> Both >> > are on SqueakSource, but if I didn't have write access, check my SqS >> > projects page for updated versions. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Sean >> > -- >> > View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Global-shortcut-keys-in-Pharo-tp3072091p3073313.html >> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> > >> > >> >> >

Dec. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Global shortcut keys in Pharo

by Guillermo Polito

Yes Yes Yes!!! I'll push on that! :D Let's join forces, it's better than be alone in the dark :). On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Tony Fleig <tony.fleig(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Sean, what is the URL of your SqS projects page? > > TF > > On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> > >> I remember... Sean working on KeyMapping, KeyBindings or > >> something like that. > >> > > > > Yes, I ported KeyMapping to Pharo because it seemed like the model people > > liked best. IIRC KeyBindings probably wouldn't be too hard to port. > Both > > are on SqueakSource, but if I didn't have write access, check my SqS > > projects page for updated versions. > > > > Cheers, > > Sean > > -- > > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Global-shortcut-keys-in-Pharo-tp3072091p3073313.html > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > > >

Dec. 6, 2010

[Pharo-project] Problem updating Pharo Core

by Guillermo Polito

I have the last prebuild pharo core (12261), and clicking on update stops in version 12266 with a DNU: *nil does not understand binary* It has something to do with the monticello a version with this info: 'Issue 3191: SparseLargeArray-MarcusDenker.2.mcz' Did someone had this same issue? Cheers! Guille

Dec. 6, 2010

[Pharo-project] Pharo Wishlist (was Native Windows in Pharo)

by Sean P. DeNigris

There was a ( hijacked ;-) ) thread on the user list about a feature wishlist. Although I think the "Benevolent Dictator" model is better suited for this stage of Pharo's evolution, it would be cool for the dictators (since they are benevolent and the opin-ers will not "disappear") to see what the community is passionate about. The reference was to the http://uservoice.com/ online app, which I've enjoyed using for PersonalBrain (http://www.thebrain.com/) Sean See relevant quotes below from http://forum.world.st/Native-Windows-in-Pharo-td3071794.html: Andres Fortier-2 wrote: > > Ok, I see. Is there a "wishlist" associated with Pharo? Something like > http://feedback.assembla.com/? > > thanks! > AndrÃ©s > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > There are some related pages in http://code.google.com/p/pharo/w/list > > For exampple: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/IdeasToImplement > > cheers > > mariano > Andres Fortier-2 wrote: > > Thanks Mariano! I was looking for something more "formal", to let user's > vote for features and a commitment of the dev team to include N of the > most voted per release (of course N depends on the release cycle and the > feature complexity). > > Thanks! > AndrÃ©s > -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Wishlist-was-Native-Windows-in-Pharo-tp3075089p… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 6, 2010