November 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 3254 in pharo: [Repackage] "Regular expressions" should be well structured

by pharo＠googlecode.com

Comment #11 on issue 3254 by stephane.ducasse: [Repackage] "Regular expressions" should be well structured http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3254 Yes now we just need time or more people integrating fixes

Nov. 24, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] <script language="smalltalk">

by Jan van de Sandt

Perhaps a Smalltalk variant of the Google Web Toolkit (GWT) would be a good idea. GWT compiles Java code into browser specific obfuscated Javascript code. At development time you can run and debug the Java code directly in the browser by using some kind of browser plugin. When you are ready to deploy you generate the Javascript code and your app runs in all modern browsers without any plugins. A Smalltalk variant would use Smalltalk as the source language instead of Java, the other parts of GWT can be reused. GWT is open source (Apache 2.0 license). Jan. GWT Homepage: http://code.google.com/intl/nl/webtoolkit/ On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:52 PM, <csrabak(a)bol.com.br> wrote: > Em 24/11/2010 09:39, Janko MivÅ¡ek < janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si > escreveu: > > > I'm pretty sure that any plugin based solution will have a dead-end, > > as all Smalltalk plugins so far had. There are just too many > > browsers to support out there. FireFox, IE, Safari, Android, > > Symbian, ... We are too small community to afford maintaining a > > plugin on so many different browsers. > > I can agree with that, giving the past history of Smalltalk plugins. > > Besides, we've to accept a simple fact of life: for the end user there > is not any apparent benefit of such additional plugin. Or, in other words: > > There is no compelling reason for an end user feel the need of an > additional piece of SW to be installed in his/her computer, even harder > if in a corporative environment where you have to get permits from > sysadmins, etc. > > > > Therefore I see the only viable long-term solution a Smalltalk on > > top of JavaScript VM. Yes, I know, this is a very limited > > environment for Smalltalk standards, but it is the least evil from > > all choices we have. > > Except if this technology has something different from present state of > art, this new layer (a.k.a. indirection) will have the single effect of > bringing the smalltalk code to appear slower than 'native' javascript, > without any benefit to the end user. > > > We actually have some effords done or underway already, like ST2JS, > > I understand these are a different beast: they 'translate' Smalltalk code > into 'equivalent' javascript to be fed to the browsers. > > Clamato, > > This is an hybrid, but basically tries to emulate some 'dialect' of > Smalltalk > in javascript. In the end, you need to master a nth language which is not > nor javascript nor smalltalk anymore. Again, if the advantages of such > approach are quickly accrued the additional effort to do so will deter > the widespread of the technology. > > [snipped] > > my 0.019999.... > > -- > Cesar Rabak > >

Nov. 24, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Waste of CPU Power by polling events?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

what I can tell you is that Pharo got some work to got forward on event and avoid polling but it was not fully finished. We will continue to work on that in the near future. On Nov 22, 2010, at 10:08 PM, Guido Stepken wrote: > I am just porting squeak/Etoys to Samsung-PAD and i noticed some strange things: > > In Pharo 1.1 network connections seemed to be limited to 4 connections: > > In the listenLoop backlogSize is set to 4. Means - Pharo is limited to max. of four simultaneous TCP Connections? > > But: Some MacIntel VM seem to run Squeak with additional worker thread for event processing. Maybe this limitation may not occur here? > > Carbon ports of Pharo use ioPeekKeystroke, ioGetKeystroke, ioMousePoint, ioGetButtonState instead of > kEventRawKeyModifiersChanged and kEventMouseMoved event > > Found in Pharo so far: > isDraggingEvent > isDropEvent > isEditEvent > isKbdEvent > isMorphicEvent > isNoteEvent > isTempoEvent > isWindowEvent > > > Hmmm ... quite a lot of events being polled: > > Need additional: > > isOnMouseOverEvent > isMouseGestureEvent > isTouchGestureEvent > isNetworkEvent > isUSBEvent > isSerialEvent > isParallelPortEvents > isCtrl-C-Event > ... > > I fear, that this costs a lot of wasted VM Power by polling. UNIX, especially Linux is changing towards a event machine, driven by interrupts. So - Interpreters should also migrated from polling to interrupt driven event-machines. > > I am missing that in Pharo. Pharo still has too much polling code/algorithm running, that slows down Pharo/Squeak/Etoys ... unneccessarily. > > Any ideas appreciated ... > > tnx, regards > > Guido Stepken > >

Nov. 24, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Pharo-users] TestMock: a full featured mock testing framework now available in SqueakSource

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

By the way dennis did you start to write a chapter on Mocks? Stef On Nov 24, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Dennis Schetinin wrote: > I'm aware of this idea. It is very interesting. Actually, I often meet this pattern in practice. But I don't see how it is connected with Mocks :) > > 2010/11/24 Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com> > Given this discussion, I would like to encourage you to take a look at Phexample by Adrian Kuhn and Niko Schwarz, based on previous work of Markus Gaelli. The basic idea is that there is no distinction between setup and tests. They are all examples, and examples are built on top of each other. > > Phexample is completely compatible with SUnit. It also comes with a fancier API, but even if you would like to debate this API, I believe it is a nice thing that we should look more closely into. > > Here are two examples checking an implementation of Stack. The first one creates the stack and checks that it should be empty, and the second one checks the pushing behavior: > > ForExampleStack>>shouldBeEmpty > | stack | > stack := Stack new. > stack isEmpty should beTrue. > stack size should = 0. > ^ stack > > ForExampleStack>>shouldPushElement > | stack | > stack := self given: #shouldBeEmpty. > stack push: 42. > stack isEmpty should not beTrue. > stack size should = 1. > stack top should = 42. > ^ stack > > More information can be found here: > http://smalltalkthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/11/phexample-because-examples-ex… > > You can get it by simply: > Gofer new > squeaksource: 'phexample'; > addPackage: 'Phexample'; > load > > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 24 Nov 2010, at 08:28, laurent laffont wrote: > > > I agree with you Dennis. TDD practices are far ahead in Ruby / Java / Python world. > > > > BUT IMHO can be a real cool neaty great platform for TDD because we have: dynamic development. > > > > What I think we miss: > > - put a Mock framework in PharoCore - Mocks should be a standard tool even for low-level stuff > > - introduce pragmas to declare tests / setUp / tearDown methods so I can write > > > > AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>createAddressBook > > <setUpTest> > > bla bla > > > > AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>shouldHaveNumberOfContactsAnswersTwo > > <test> > > blabla > > > > AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>ifDennisRemovedNumberOfContactsShouldAnswersOne > > <test> > > bla bla > > > > > > > > - (harder) interface to / creation of an executable requirements / BDD framework like Cucumber http://cukes.info/ > > > > Laurent > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:31 AM, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > As for me, I'm simply unable to establish smooth test-driven process without Mocks. I think it does not depend on language at all. > > > > Without mocks I have to divide the task I have into smaller independent parts. It's actually an up-front design. I can make a mistake (I usually do); even worse it's often just impossible to accomplish because too many subcomponents usually interact thoroughly and I simply don't know which one to implement first :). So, without mocks I have to code bottom-up, from details to general. This is unnatural and error-prone. > > > > With mocks I can start directly from the task I have. I get a use case and write a test for the one. Creating the test I detect subcomponents needed, understand how they should interact and document that in the same test. As those subcomponents do not exist yet, I have to specify them and their behavior right in the test (if I don't want to break the process I've just started). That's why I really need mocks. Then I can take another use case or implement one of the mocks I used as a real object and so on. Thus, mocks allow me to go top-down and implement only the things I really need, not the things I think I'll need. > > > > Are there other, maybe better, approaches? > > > > Concerning TDD popularityâ¦ I'm not sure TDD plays the role it should in Smalltalk community. > > > > Messing with Smalltalk for about 7â8 years, I can't say I often see real TDD code. About 50â70% (depending on Smalltalk dialect) of frameworks I use have no tests at all. The rest often looks being tested a posteriori. Perhaps, Pharo is the only exclusionâ¦ > > > > And if TDD is really popular and widely used, why do we have so much regression bugs even in core subsystems even in commercial Smalltalks? > > > > Please, correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > 2010/11/23 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > > > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Dennis, > > > > Yes, TDD is highly popular and encouraged in the Smalltalk community. > > And mocks are not necessary in most cases. > > > > > > Hi Luc, > > > > why Mocks are less necessary in Smalltalk than in other (Ruby/Python/whatever...) languages ? Do you have some examples / link ? > > > > Sometimes I think a mocking library should be in PharoCore so I don't need to write my own mocks..... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Laurent > > > > > > > > > > #Luc > > > > > > 2010/11/23 Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> > > > > How is it compared to Mocketry (http://www.squeaksource.com/Mocketry.html)? SMock? > > > > BTW, isn't TDD without mocks a bit incomplete? And is TDD popular among smalltalkers actually? > > > > 2010/11/22 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > > > > This is cool Anindya. I don't need mocks right now, but I will keep it in mind! > > > > I cc'ed Pharo-dev mailing list. > > > > Cheers > > > > Mariano > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Anindya Haldar <anindya_haldar(a)yahoo.com> > > Date: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:11 AM > > Subject: [Pharo-users] TestMock: a full featured mock testing framework now available in SqueakSource > > To: pharo-users(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > > > > > Dear Pharoers, > > > > TestMcok is a full featured mock based test framework that I am very glad to contribute to the community. It is in squeaksource under the project name TestMock. Please feel free to try it, and feedback will be greatly appreciated. The wiki section includes a brief how-to guide with code examples. > > > > Regards, > > Anindya Haldar > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-users mailing list > > Pharo-users(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dennis Schetinin > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dennis Schetinin > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, > one might have better chances to win by moving slower." > > > > > > > > -- > Dennis Schetinin

Nov. 24, 2010

[Pharo-project] Issue 3286 in pharo: SmalltalkImage>>#removeSelector: and Behavior>>#removeSelector:

by pharo＠googlecode.com

Status: Accepted Owner: Benjamin.VanRyseghem.Pharo New issue 3286 by Benjamin.VanRyseghem.Pharo: SmalltalkImage>>#removeSelector: and Behavior>>#removeSelector: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3286 Which method should be used ? Which one should have comment modified ?

Nov. 24, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [Pharo-users] TestMock: a full featured mock testing framework now available in SqueakSource

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Nothing should be in the core (not even the tests) in the core we should have a way to load package from a distribution server. Now if this is in Pharo-dev this is another story :) We can get tests and mock and mock framework. Stef > I agree with you Dennis. TDD practices are far ahead in Ruby / Java / Python world. > > BUT IMHO can be a real cool neaty great platform for TDD because we have: dynamic development. > > What I think we miss: > - put a Mock framework in PharoCore - Mocks should be a standard tool even for low-level stuff > - introduce pragmas to declare tests / setUp / tearDown methods so I can write > > AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>createAddressBook > <setUpTest> > bla bla > > AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>shouldHaveNumberOfContactsAnswersTwo > <test> > blabla > > AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>ifDennisRemovedNumberOfContactsShouldAnswersOne > <test> > bla bla > > > > - (harder) interface to / creation of an executable requirements / BDD framework like Cucumber http://cukes.info/ > > Laurent > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:31 AM, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> wrote: > As for me, I'm simply unable to establish smooth test-driven process without Mocks. I think it does not depend on language at all. > > Without mocks I have to divide the task I have into smaller independent parts. It's actually an up-front design. I can make a mistake (I usually do); even worse it's often just impossible to accomplish because too many subcomponents usually interact thoroughly and I simply don't know which one to implement first :). So, without mocks I have to code bottom-up, from details to general. This is unnatural and error-prone. > > With mocks I can start directly from the task I have. I get a use case and write a test for the one. Creating the test I detect subcomponents needed, understand how they should interact and document that in the same test. As those subcomponents do not exist yet, I have to specify them and their behavior right in the test (if I don't want to break the process I've just started). That's why I really need mocks. Then I can take another use case or implement one of the mocks I used as a real object and so on. Thus, mocks allow me to go top-down and implement only the things I really need, not the things I think I'll need. > > Are there other, maybe better, approaches? > > Concerning TDD popularityâ¦ I'm not sure TDD plays the role it should in Smalltalk community. > > Messing with Smalltalk for about 7â8 years, I can't say I often see real TDD code. About 50â70% (depending on Smalltalk dialect) of frameworks I use have no tests at all. The rest often looks being tested a posteriori. Perhaps, Pharo is the only exclusionâ¦ > > And if TDD is really popular and widely used, why do we have so much regression bugs even in core subsystems even in commercial Smalltalks? > > Please, correct me if I'm wrong. > > 2010/11/23 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Dennis, > > Yes, TDD is highly popular and encouraged in the Smalltalk community. > And mocks are not necessary in most cases. > > > Hi Luc, > > why Mocks are less necessary in Smalltalk than in other (Ruby/Python/whatever...) languages ? Do you have some examples / link ? > > Sometimes I think a mocking library should be in PharoCore so I don't need to write my own mocks..... > > > Cheers, > > Laurent > > > > > #Luc > > > 2010/11/23 Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> > > How is it compared to Mocketry (http://www.squeaksource.com/Mocketry.html)? SMock? > > BTW, isn't TDD without mocks a bit incomplete? And is TDD popular among smalltalkers actually? > > 2010/11/22 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > > This is cool Anindya. I don't need mocks right now, but I will keep it in mind! > > I cc'ed Pharo-dev mailing list. > > Cheers > > Mariano > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Anindya Haldar <anindya_haldar(a)yahoo.com> > Date: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:11 AM > Subject: [Pharo-users] TestMock: a full featured mock testing framework now available in SqueakSource > To: pharo-users(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > > Dear Pharoers, > > TestMcok is a full featured mock based test framework that I am very glad to contribute to the community. It is in squeaksource under the project name TestMock. Please feel free to try it, and feedback will be greatly appreciated. The wiki section includes a brief how-to guide with code examples. > > Regards, > Anindya Haldar > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-users mailing list > Pharo-users(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users > > > > > > -- > Dennis Schetinin > > > > > > -- > Dennis Schetinin >

Nov. 24, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] removeSelector:

by Benjamin

On Nov 24, 2010, at 2:25 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > We should check who uses it and remove it. > Ben open a ticket please. > BTW there is a pattern Move behavior close to data (and here methods > are data so method touching them should be > in Bhevaior and subclasses) > Stef http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3286 Ben

Nov. 24, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Symbol and Scanner

by Benjamin

On Nov 24, 2010, at 2:22 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > I see well your problem. > We want to have symbol without getting with it the parser and > compiler. > three questions > - can we package isLiteralSymbol: with compiler? > - what are the senders? > - else do we have an alternate implementation not relying on scanner? > > Stef I've see with Marcus how to reverse the dependencies to have Symbol without Scanner. I've posted the cs on Bug Entry, but I can't charge the cs, dunno why ... http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3283 Ben

Nov. 24, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 3283 in pharo: Symbol dependencie

by pharo＠googlecode.com

Comment #3 on issue 3283 by Benjamin.VanRyseghem.Pharo: Symbol dependencie http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3283 I can't charge the cs, I don't know why, but I'm on it

Nov. 24, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] removeSelector:

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

We should check who uses it and remove it. Ben open a ticket please. BTW there is a pattern Move behavior close to data (and here methods are data so method touching them should be in Bhevaior and subclasses) Stef On Nov 24, 2010, at 8:13 AM, Noury Bouraqadi wrote: > No, it is an ill-named method. The argument is not a selector, but an array. First argument is a class and the second. > > Noury > On 23 nov. 2010, at 12:48, Benjamin wrote: > >> Hello guys, >> >> regarding that comment of SmalltalkImage>>#removeSelector: is >> >> "Safely remove a selector from a class (or metaclass). If the >> class or the method doesn't exist anymore, never mind and >> answer nil. >> This method should be used instead of 'Class removeSelector: >> #method' to omit global class references." >> >> maybe Behavior>>#removeSelector: sould be deprecated ? >> >> >> Ben > >

Nov. 24, 2010