November 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo integration in enterprise feedback

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Em 26/11/2010 07:03, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com > escreveu: > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:40 PM, laurent laffont > > <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hi, I'm looking for feedback on > > Pharo integration in enterprise. Especially how you have managed > > to put Pharo in your enterprise. For example, I'm involved in > > web application development in other > > languages. For functional testing I'm able to script Selenium > > using Pharo thanks to WebTester. So Pharo has made a small step > > at my work. > > > Just show them the diff in time/money for the same > development. (BTW, I don't have experience on that heheheh). Mariano, trust me, I have twenty years of experience on this, and have to tell you: language or more generally the technology has a very small impact in the result you're after to show as 'proof' of supremacy for Pharo in the enterprise. . . Processes, the skill level of the developers, the efficacy of management are much more important. I will stay away of more hard discussions which would involve the statistical validation of the findings before one can trump any result as gun smoke. Regards, -- Cesar Rabak

Nov. 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] <script language="smalltalk">

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Em 24/11/2010 11:50, Jan van de Sandt < jvdsandt(a)gmail.com > escreveu: > Perhaps a Smalltalk variant of the Google Web Toolkit (GWT) would be > a good idea. > GWT compiles Java code into browser specific obfuscated Javascript > code. At development time you can run and debug the Java code > directly in the browser by using some kind of browser plugin. When > you are ready to deploy you generate the Javascript code and your > app runs in all modern browsers without any plugins. > A Smalltalk variant would use Smalltalk as the source language > instead of Java, the other parts of GWT can be reused. GWT is open > source (Apache 2.0 license). I think we have first to evaluate to what audience/market are thinking of targeting this effort, then estimate the effort, in order to see if its worth it. If the attempt is a reinterpretation a Smalltalk base development environment would make a difference in the ecosystem we must check if we aren't flared by our preference of languages versus operational pragmatics. If the idea is to have such environment to the present (and sadly minute) community of Smalltalk developers, probably the effort would attend to a very small clientÃ¨le and the returns will be elusive and the project will end orphan. > GWT Homepage: http://code.google.com/intl/nl/webtoolkit/

Nov. 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] How to copy a CompiledMethod?

by Gabriel HernÃ¡n Barbuto

Eliot Thanks for your response. On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 25 November 2010 20:44, Gabriel HernÃ¡n Barbuto <gbarbuto(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > Hi >> > >> > I am trying to make a complete duplicate of a CompiledMethod. I >> > started with CompiledMethod>>#copyWithTrailerBytes: but I think that >> > this way still leaves some things to copy. It duplicates all the >> > literals, but I think that it doesn't duplicate a Pragma if for >> > example, the method has one. >> > >> AFAIR, pragmas are stored as one of literals. >> So, it actually should also make a copy of pragmas. > > Yes. pragmas are effectively referenced from literals. Â If a method needs ti > the penultimate literal (which otherwise is the method;s selector) holds an > AdditionalMethodState which refers back to its method. Â This needs to be > copied if one is copying a method, since the backpointer needs to refer to > the owning method, not the method form which the copy was made. >> >> > Is there a proper way to completely make deep copy of a >> > CompiledMethod? I mean, without writing my own. If there is a way to >> > do it, I don't want to duplicate it. >> > >> if you tell more, why #copy is not enough for you. > > If literals are read-only (and Array/ByteArray/String/Float literals are > conceptually read-only but not actually) you don't need to make a deep copy. > Â You only need to copy the AdditionalMethodState, if present, and the class > association, if you want to install the method somewhere else. Yes that was exactly what I did. I handle both Association and AdditionalMethodState in a special way and just send copy to all the other literals. I was not sure what I could encounter in the literals so I opted to send copy to them. Maybe they will just return themselves or make an unnecessary duplicate. I have also taken care of copying the Pragmas referenced from any AdditionalMethodState. Igor mentioned that there could be Pragmas directly on the literals but I am not sure about that. I will have to get all the CompiledMethods and check if anyone has a Pragma among its literals, but that is not enough, maybe my image doesn't have any. I understand that all the literals are conceptually read only, and that copying anything besides the Associations, AdditionalMethodStates and Pragmas can waste memory and CPU cycles, but I am not interested in speed nor memory consumption right now. But I will take a note, in case some day I need to improve the copy. After copying all the Associations, AdditionalMethodStates and Pragmas that I've found I fix the references of both AdditionalMethodStates and Pragmas to the new method in order to break all references to objects in the current image that I don't want to show up in the new image. Thanks again. Best Gabriel > best > Eliot >> >> > Thanks in advance. >> > Gabriel >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> > >

Nov. 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] RBScanner>>#initializeClassificationTable

by Eliot Miranda

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 4:35 AM, Lukas Renggli <renggli(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I agree, removing the option in Pharo 1.2 is maybe a bit early. The > idea is to gradually increase the pain of underscore assignments, to > finally get rid of them. > That's fine. But the scanner still needs to support them always because otherwise you'll get a syntax error parsing old source files containing underscores. That's the intent of my Scanner>>#initScannerForTokenization method which is used by the ChangeScanner so that old files can still be examined. Right? Eliot > Lukas > > On 26 November 2010 09:02, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > > Hi Lukas, > > > >>In Pharo 1.2 we hopefully remove the option (underscore assignments) > >>to get rid of them for all and forever. > > > > You wont get rid of them just by removing the option. :( > > > > There is a lot of "legacy" code out there that is not converted > > and will then not be loadable in Pharo >= 1.2 or greater. > > > > Keeping the option would allow to load this code and convert > > it to standard assignment in the future. Otherwise > > one has to use Squeak or Pharo < 1.2 to convert before using > > it in recent images. > > > > On the other side we havent cared on backward compatibily too > > much anyway (yet) ... > > > > Bye > > T. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > GMX DSL Doppel-Flat ab 19,99 €/mtl.! Jetzt auch mit > > gratis Notebook-Flat! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl > > > > > > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > >

Nov. 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Weird problem...having several "implementors" for the same method and class

by Eliot Miranda

My guess is that you have multiple copies of the CompiledMethodProxy class, which can happen by various snafus. Use SystemNavigation default obsoleteClasses inspect to track them down. You can select the real one by insisting that theRealOne == (Smalltalk at: #CompiledMethodProxy) and nuking the other ones. HTH Eiot On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry, I know the subject of the mail is confusing, I am confused myself. > Ok, I am doing hacky stuff and playing with CompiledMethod proxies, but I > have a problem searching for implementors. > > So, I have for example CompiledMethodProxy >> mareaUninstall. > > But when I search for implementors of "mareaUninstall" in the popup of > implementors it shows FOUR times, "CompiledMethodProxy >> mareaUninstall"... > why ??? it should appear only once.. > > I attach an screenshot. Does anyone know what can be happening? > > thanks in advance, > > Mariano >

Nov. 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] How to copy a CompiledMethod?

by Eliot Miranda

On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 25 November 2010 20:44, Gabriel HernÃ¡n Barbuto <gbarbuto(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi > > > > I am trying to make a complete duplicate of a CompiledMethod. I > > started with CompiledMethod>>#copyWithTrailerBytes: but I think that > > this way still leaves some things to copy. It duplicates all the > > literals, but I think that it doesn't duplicate a Pragma if for > > example, the method has one. > > > AFAIR, pragmas are stored as one of literals. > So, it actually should also make a copy of pragmas. > Yes. pragmas are effectively referenced from literals. If a method needs ti the penultimate literal (which otherwise is the method;s selector) holds an AdditionalMethodState which refers back to its method. This needs to be copied if one is copying a method, since the backpointer needs to refer to the owning method, not the method form which the copy was made. > > Is there a proper way to completely make deep copy of a > > CompiledMethod? I mean, without writing my own. If there is a way to > > do it, I don't want to duplicate it. > > > if you tell more, why #copy is not enough for you. > If literals are read-only (and Array/ByteArray/String/Float literals are conceptually read-only but not actually) you don't need to make a deep copy. You only need to copy the AdditionalMethodState, if present, and the class association, if you want to install the method somewhere else. best Eliot > > > Thanks in advance. > > Gabriel > > > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > >

Nov. 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Waste of CPU Power by polling events?

by Eliot Miranda

On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 8:25 PM, John M McIntosh < johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> wrote: > > On 2010-11-23, at 1:23 AM, Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote: > > > On 22.11.2010 22:08, Guido Stepken wrote: > >> Need additional: > >> > >> isOnMouseOverEvent > >> isMouseGestureEvent > >> isTouchGestureEvent > > You could try checking out how the iOS code does support for complex > events. > > It's of course somewhat apple-specific, but hey, would be nice to have > the same image-side representation and handling of touch-based events if > possible. > > Apple is very very notification &event callback oriented in their iOS > platform. It sleeps until you touch, then you get a touch event, you process > and go back to sleep. Heck if your startup time takes too many seconds Apple > nails you. > > For Squeak on iOS I take the touch data place on a queue and signals the > event semaphore. When the squeak image polls for the event we > turn the touch data into a complex event and pass it back, then is > processed by the Smalltalk code to turn into synthetic mouse events. (or > something). > > For keyboard entry, we take the key input data and turn into synthetic > keystroke events, and again signal the semaphore and put on a queue for > later when > the Smalltalk code wakes up and calls getnextevent to see what's up. > > I'm not sure if anyone mentioned the other issue is that the polling loop > also deals with doing the morphic redrawing so it runs a cycle of doing I > think it is > 50 iterations a second. > > For WikiServer which doesn't show a squeak UI I could cut that back to > doing a cycle every second or so. > > Oh and yet one more thing, the clock tick is yet another issue, some > platforms assume they can run an interrupt 1000 a second (or more) to ensure > the VM is responsive to Delay being correctly woken up to the microsecond. > "PS here I am over simplify the issue & complexity of the issue" but on > underpowered hardware the issues of how ioRelinquishProcessorForMicroseconds > and the millisecond timer work become messy issues in relationship to CPU > usage. > Yes, we need to change this, but I think one has to change the background process and/or nothing to run behavior. In the VW VM the VM disables the heartbeat and enters some blocking call when there's nothing to do. Squeak runs the background process which calls a primitive that sleeps for a short time. The former is much better. If a delay is active as the VM does to sleep it schedules a wakeup event or supplies a timeout so that it blocks until input is available or the next delay. We could still keep the background process and do something similar to VW, disabling the heartbeat until after the relinquish, and factoring the delay into the relinquish timeout. Also the heartbeat already has facilities to change its frequency, so one could modify things to slow down the heartbeat, again ensuring that it ticks before the next delay expiry. What approach (not necessarily from the above) appeals to you John? best Eliot > > -- > =========================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: > squeaker68882 > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > =========================================================================== > > > > > >

Nov. 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Smalltalks 2010

by Andres Valloud

The sessions were recorded, and will become available when we're done going over the video. Stay tuned :). On 11/10/10 2:07 , Torsten Bergmann wrote: > Will "Smalltalks 2010" in Argentina be recorded to provide > the sessions on the web later or streamed to the web similar > to ESUG? > > Thx > T.

Nov. 26, 2010

[Pharo-project] [update 1.2] #12258

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

12258 ----- - Issue 3328: Cleaning a bit RecentMessageList Stef and Benjamin

Nov. 26, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 3266 in pharo: Clean TextEditor

by Eliot Miranda

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 25 November 2010 03:45, Juan Vuletich <juan(a)jvuletich.org> wrote: > > Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> > >> IMO SimpleMorphic, minus 'color' ivar in Morph class is a way to go. > >> (i mean get rid that 'color' thing in base class) :) > >> > >> > > > > Yep. I fully agree. > > > I think, for things like Morphic, where there are dozens of various > properties expected > to be in basic morph class, we should use dictionaries, backed up by > clever VM semantics. > I cannot stop thinking about extending object format to allow a > dynamic number of slots per object, > like in self or javascript. > But you don't need to change the object model for this. The VM still supports the mixed format of named and indexed inst vars (e.g. MethodContext) and so you can make an object indexed and store properties in indexed inst vars (e.g. as flattened key, value pairs). The down side is the cost of become, but one can over-allocate, e.g. room for 8 properties so that one becomes only every 8th add. Alternatively have an uninitialized properties inst var which when needed holds a dictionary. Or a global weak dictionary. Or... And of course all these variants can be mixed, e.g. by providing a settable policy in the class so different classes ca do different things. The global properties dictionary can be used as a fallback when one wants to add a property to an instance of a class that doesn't implement one of the other policies. best Eliot > > > > Cheers, > > Juan Vuletich > > > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > >

Nov. 26, 2010