November 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] About simple morphic

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Nov 6, 2010, at 7:56 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi, > > I would be interested in testing these changes, but could we get a summary, or at least the intention behind these changes? What does Simple mean in this context? less dust in morphic. This is basically the work that juan did in CUIS now I do not have a detailled list of the changes. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 6 Nov 2010, at 19:10, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Thanks german >> This is what I think too but I like that other people express what they think :) >> So thanks. >> >> Stef >> >> On Nov 6, 2010, at 7:00 PM, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure if my opinion can have some value because I'm more on the >>> web arena than in en desktop, but I've on my plans make somethings >>> (when time permit) using Morphic (Most rewriting things I did in the >>> past with Squeak). >>> >>> I think that if SimpleMorphic is loadable/unloadable and don't >>> generates bad effects in the Pharo environment, the proposal sound >>> correct and is a good way to have a Morphic simplification (A thing I >>> think we need). >>> >>> Just my opinion. >>> GermÃ¡n. >>> >>> >>> 2010/11/6 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >>>> Hi guys >>>> >>>> the mail may be a bit long sorry. ESUG was supporting Morphic 3 (a new proposal) of Juan. Now it occurred that Juan realized that he will not be able to deliver what he wanted. So After discussion one idea was to get simpleMorphic (not lighMorphic) a simpler version of Morphic done by juan for Squeak and Pharo. We believe that this is good because Juan could deliver something and we could support him. >>>> >>>> Juan sent us the code and I published it at http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3210 >>>> >>>> Here is the original text: >>>> >>>>> I'm really happy to tell you: SimpleMorphic for Pharo is working! The attached zip file contains a few numbered change sets, to be installed in Pharo in order. >>>>> >>>>> The contents of the change sets are as follows: >>>>> - SMx01-PharoEnhAndPreliminaries-jmv.3.cs and SMx02-PharoEnhAndPreliminariesCoda.1.cs contain some refactoring needed to make it possible to add another GUI to Pharo. Nothing here is specific to SimpleMorphic, and I recommend integrating them into Pharo. >>>>> - SMx03-ExtensionMethodsPart1.3.cs contains a few useful methods, not specific to SimpleMorphic, but optional anyway. You might integrate this into Pharo or consider it part of SimpleMorphic. >>>>> - SMx04-SimpleMorphic.11.cs This change set is the big one. It includes all the new SimpleMorphic classes. It doesn't include any method for existing classes (to make review easier). >>>>> - SMx05-ExtensionMethodsPart2.7.cs This change set includes the SimpleMorphic specific methods I added to existing classes. >>>>> >>>>> After loading them, you can evaluate 'SimpleMorphicUIManager start' to enter SimpleMorphic and 'SimpleMorphicUIManager stop' to return to regular Morphic. >>>>> >>>>> As SimpleMorphic is much simpler and easier to understand that regular Morphic, my biggest hope is that the Pharo community will adopt it, study it in detail, and be able to adapt it to Pharo's needs all way down. No need to walk away from overwhelming complexity anymore. >>>>> >>>>> I look forward for your comments! >>>> >>>> >>>> Now after discussion with Juan: we plan to integrate SM01, 02, and 03 to be able to load SM04. >>>> SM04 is not in a shape were we can simply migrate on it >>>> - Polymorph first polymorph is tight with the old Morphic >>>> - Preference are still used >>>> - FillInTheBlank, PopUp.... are used. >>>> >>>> Now I suggest that we integrate 01.02.03 and package the rest to be loaded in 1.2 >>>> This way we can either update SimpleMorphic to get more pharoed or we could use it to study and fix morphic. >>>> But all that will require some work. >>>> >>>> Tell us what you think. >>>> >>> >> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Some battles are better lost than fought." > > > >

Nov. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] The next milestone reached!

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Gabriel, Benjamin and Nicolas paez started to work on kernels (collaborating also with pavel). Now Benjamin is starting to generate a new kernel using microSqueak approach. just that you know our plans we are working on pine kernel = microsqueak with as less as modifications as possible (fun for teaching) ---------------------------------- hazelnut = nothing to do with pine kernel but inspired and based on current pharo kernel String wideString floats... Exception walnut = a bit bigger but based on haselnuts Announcement .... coconut = probably bigger but based on I imagine you got the idea of our metaphor :) In parallel we are cleaning cleaning cleaning and repackaging part of the system in collaboration with Pavel so that when we get haselnuts or walnuts we could do something with it. and we have some other cool stuff on the grill :) Stef

Nov. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] About simple morphic

by Tudor Girba

Hi, I would be interested in testing these changes, but could we get a summary, or at least the intention behind these changes? What does Simple mean in this context? Cheers, Doru On 6 Nov 2010, at 19:10, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Thanks german > This is what I think too but I like that other people express what they think :) > So thanks. > > Stef > > On Nov 6, 2010, at 7:00 PM, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: > >> I'm not sure if my opinion can have some value because I'm more on the >> web arena than in en desktop, but I've on my plans make somethings >> (when time permit) using Morphic (Most rewriting things I did in the >> past with Squeak). >> >> I think that if SimpleMorphic is loadable/unloadable and don't >> generates bad effects in the Pharo environment, the proposal sound >> correct and is a good way to have a Morphic simplification (A thing I >> think we need). >> >> Just my opinion. >> GermÃ¡n. >> >> >> 2010/11/6 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >>> Hi guys >>> >>> the mail may be a bit long sorry. ESUG was supporting Morphic 3 (a new proposal) of Juan. Now it occurred that Juan realized that he will not be able to deliver what he wanted. So After discussion one idea was to get simpleMorphic (not lighMorphic) a simpler version of Morphic done by juan for Squeak and Pharo. We believe that this is good because Juan could deliver something and we could support him. >>> >>> Juan sent us the code and I published it at http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3210 >>> >>> Here is the original text: >>> >>>> I'm really happy to tell you: SimpleMorphic for Pharo is working! The attached zip file contains a few numbered change sets, to be installed in Pharo in order. >>>> >>>> The contents of the change sets are as follows: >>>> - SMx01-PharoEnhAndPreliminaries-jmv.3.cs and SMx02-PharoEnhAndPreliminariesCoda.1.cs contain some refactoring needed to make it possible to add another GUI to Pharo. Nothing here is specific to SimpleMorphic, and I recommend integrating them into Pharo. >>>> - SMx03-ExtensionMethodsPart1.3.cs contains a few useful methods, not specific to SimpleMorphic, but optional anyway. You might integrate this into Pharo or consider it part of SimpleMorphic. >>>> - SMx04-SimpleMorphic.11.cs This change set is the big one. It includes all the new SimpleMorphic classes. It doesn't include any method for existing classes (to make review easier). >>>> - SMx05-ExtensionMethodsPart2.7.cs This change set includes the SimpleMorphic specific methods I added to existing classes. >>>> >>>> After loading them, you can evaluate 'SimpleMorphicUIManager start' to enter SimpleMorphic and 'SimpleMorphicUIManager stop' to return to regular Morphic. >>>> >>>> As SimpleMorphic is much simpler and easier to understand that regular Morphic, my biggest hope is that the Pharo community will adopt it, study it in detail, and be able to adapt it to Pharo's needs all way down. No need to walk away from overwhelming complexity anymore. >>>> >>>> I look forward for your comments! >>> >>> >>> Now after discussion with Juan: we plan to integrate SM01, 02, and 03 to be able to load SM04. >>> SM04 is not in a shape were we can simply migrate on it >>> - Polymorph first polymorph is tight with the old Morphic >>> - Preference are still used >>> - FillInTheBlank, PopUp.... are used. >>> >>> Now I suggest that we integrate 01.02.03 and package the rest to be loaded in 1.2 >>> This way we can either update SimpleMorphic to get more pharoed or we could use it to study and fix morphic. >>> But all that will require some work. >>> >>> Tell us what you think. >>> >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Some battles are better lost than fought."

Nov. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] About simple morphic

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> A great job is done in aggregating energy to make Pharo a sexy Smalltalk > development plateform. > Was SimpleMorphic sponsoried under this perspective? not really. ESUG wanted to push Morphic 30 and juan did a new proposal (one that was more reasonable than the one in 2008). Now since having a cleaner morphic is important we found it a good fallback (making sure that the work done in cuis could be loaded in other systems so that they can build on it or get influenced). Now we have to have a look and decide what to do. > And more importantly what is the outcome for a Desktop application developer like me? For now not something directly usable if you want to use polymorph for example. as I said this is our turn to make some use of it. > > Hilaire > > Le 06/11/2010 19:10, StÃ©phane Ducasse a Ã©crit : >> Thanks german >> This is what I think too but I like that other people express what they think :) >> So thanks. >> >> Stef >> >> On Nov 6, 2010, at 7:00 PM, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure if my opinion can have some value because I'm more on the >>> web arena than in en desktop, but I've on my plans make somethings >>> (when time permit) using Morphic (Most rewriting things I did in the >>> past with Squeak). >>> >>> I think that if SimpleMorphic is loadable/unloadable and don't >>> generates bad effects in the Pharo environment, the proposal sound >>> correct and is a good way to have a Morphic simplification (A thing I >>> think we need). >>> >>> Just my opinion. >>> GermÃ¡n. >>> >>> >>> 2010/11/6 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >>>> Hi guys >>>> >>>> the mail may be a bit long sorry. ESUG was supporting Morphic 3 (a new proposal) of Juan. Now it occurred that Juan realized that he will not be able to deliver what he wanted. So After discussion one idea was to get simpleMorphic (not lighMorphic) a simpler version of Morphic done by juan for Squeak and Pharo. We believe that this is good because Juan could deliver something and we could support him. >>>> >>>> Juan sent us the code and I published it at http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3210 >>>> >>>> Here is the original text: >>>> >>>>> I'm really happy to tell you: SimpleMorphic for Pharo is working! The attached zip file contains a few numbered change sets, to be installed in Pharo in order. >>>>> >>>>> The contents of the change sets are as follows: >>>>> - SMx01-PharoEnhAndPreliminaries-jmv.3.cs and SMx02-PharoEnhAndPreliminariesCoda.1.cs contain some refactoring needed to make it possible to add another GUI to Pharo. Nothing here is specific to SimpleMorphic, and I recommend integrating them into Pharo. >>>>> - SMx03-ExtensionMethodsPart1.3.cs contains a few useful methods, not specific to SimpleMorphic, but optional anyway. You might integrate this into Pharo or consider it part of SimpleMorphic. >>>>> - SMx04-SimpleMorphic.11.cs This change set is the big one. It includes all the new SimpleMorphic classes. It doesn't include any method for existing classes (to make review easier). >>>>> - SMx05-ExtensionMethodsPart2.7.cs This change set includes the SimpleMorphic specific methods I added to existing classes. >>>>> >>>>> After loading them, you can evaluate 'SimpleMorphicUIManager start' to enter SimpleMorphic and 'SimpleMorphicUIManager stop' to return to regular Morphic. >>>>> >>>>> As SimpleMorphic is much simpler and easier to understand that regular Morphic, my biggest hope is that the Pharo community will adopt it, study it in detail, and be able to adapt it to Pharo's needs all way down. No need to walk away from overwhelming complexity anymore. >>>>> >>>>> I look forward for your comments! >>>> >>>> >>>> Now after discussion with Juan: we plan to integrate SM01, 02, and 03 to be able to load SM04. >>>> SM04 is not in a shape were we can simply migrate on it >>>> - Polymorph first polymorph is tight with the old Morphic >>>> - Preference are still used >>>> - FillInTheBlank, PopUp.... are used. >>>> >>>> Now I suggest that we integrate 01.02.03 and package the rest to be loaded in 1.2 >>>> This way we can either update SimpleMorphic to get more pharoed or we could use it to study and fix morphic. >>>> But all that will require some work. >>>> >>>> Tell us what you think. >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Dr. Geo, to discover geometry on Linux, Windows, MAC and XO > http://community.ofset.org/index.php/DrGeo > >

Nov. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] The next milestone reached!

by Hilaire Fernandes

Pavel, I would like to be your first user. I am planing for a DrGeo release in the coming weeks, so I will definitely take a look. Hilaire Le 06/11/2010 12:47, Pavel Krivanek a Ã©crit : > This screenshot is more representative ;-) > > -- Pavel > > On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Pavel Krivanek > <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I successfully loaded the the rest of PharoCore packages into the >> PharoKernel. The Morphic initialization works too. See the attached >> screenshot. I will publish the scripts later today. >> >> Cheers, >> -- Pavel >> -- Dr. Geo, to discover geometry on Linux, Windows, MAC and XO http://community.ofset.org/index.php/DrGeo

Nov. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] About simple morphic

by Hilaire Fernandes

A great job is done in aggregating energy to make Pharo a sexy Smalltalk development plateform. Was SimpleMorphic sponsoried under this perspective? And more importantly what is the outcome for a Desktop application developer like me? Hilaire Le 06/11/2010 19:10, StÃ©phane Ducasse a Ã©crit : > Thanks german > This is what I think too but I like that other people express what they think :) > So thanks. > > Stef > > On Nov 6, 2010, at 7:00 PM, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: > >> I'm not sure if my opinion can have some value because I'm more on the >> web arena than in en desktop, but I've on my plans make somethings >> (when time permit) using Morphic (Most rewriting things I did in the >> past with Squeak). >> >> I think that if SimpleMorphic is loadable/unloadable and don't >> generates bad effects in the Pharo environment, the proposal sound >> correct and is a good way to have a Morphic simplification (A thing I >> think we need). >> >> Just my opinion. >> GermÃ¡n. >> >> >> 2010/11/6 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >>> Hi guys >>> >>> the mail may be a bit long sorry. ESUG was supporting Morphic 3 (a new proposal) of Juan. Now it occurred that Juan realized that he will not be able to deliver what he wanted. So After discussion one idea was to get simpleMorphic (not lighMorphic) a simpler version of Morphic done by juan for Squeak and Pharo. We believe that this is good because Juan could deliver something and we could support him. >>> >>> Juan sent us the code and I published it at http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3210 >>> >>> Here is the original text: >>> >>>> I'm really happy to tell you: SimpleMorphic for Pharo is working! The attached zip file contains a few numbered change sets, to be installed in Pharo in order. >>>> >>>> The contents of the change sets are as follows: >>>> - SMx01-PharoEnhAndPreliminaries-jmv.3.cs and SMx02-PharoEnhAndPreliminariesCoda.1.cs contain some refactoring needed to make it possible to add another GUI to Pharo. Nothing here is specific to SimpleMorphic, and I recommend integrating them into Pharo. >>>> - SMx03-ExtensionMethodsPart1.3.cs contains a few useful methods, not specific to SimpleMorphic, but optional anyway. You might integrate this into Pharo or consider it part of SimpleMorphic. >>>> - SMx04-SimpleMorphic.11.cs This change set is the big one. It includes all the new SimpleMorphic classes. It doesn't include any method for existing classes (to make review easier). >>>> - SMx05-ExtensionMethodsPart2.7.cs This change set includes the SimpleMorphic specific methods I added to existing classes. >>>> >>>> After loading them, you can evaluate 'SimpleMorphicUIManager start' to enter SimpleMorphic and 'SimpleMorphicUIManager stop' to return to regular Morphic. >>>> >>>> As SimpleMorphic is much simpler and easier to understand that regular Morphic, my biggest hope is that the Pharo community will adopt it, study it in detail, and be able to adapt it to Pharo's needs all way down. No need to walk away from overwhelming complexity anymore. >>>> >>>> I look forward for your comments! >>> >>> >>> Now after discussion with Juan: we plan to integrate SM01, 02, and 03 to be able to load SM04. >>> SM04 is not in a shape were we can simply migrate on it >>> - Polymorph first polymorph is tight with the old Morphic >>> - Preference are still used >>> - FillInTheBlank, PopUp.... are used. >>> >>> Now I suggest that we integrate 01.02.03 and package the rest to be loaded in 1.2 >>> This way we can either update SimpleMorphic to get more pharoed or we could use it to study and fix morphic. >>> But all that will require some work. >>> >>> Tell us what you think. >>> >> > > > -- Dr. Geo, to discover geometry on Linux, Windows, MAC and XO http://community.ofset.org/index.php/DrGeo

Nov. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Morphic 3 (was: Re: [Ann][Cuis] New Cuis Release)

by Levente Uzonyi

On Sat, 6 Nov 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > On Nov 6, 2010, at 5:55 PM, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > >> On Sat, 6 Nov 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>>> you can add ESUG as sponsors >>>> >>>> Is the developement of Cuis sponsored by ESUG? >>> >>> We originally sponsored the development of Morphic 30 and it generally does not hurt to say it. >>> Even if at the end morphic is not ready for public consumption. Our original idea was not to >>> sponsor SimpleMorphic. I have no problem with the solution we found because he helps everybody to be happy. >> >> Did Juan stop developing Morphic 3? I doubt he did. > > As I told you juan decided that Morphic 30 would not be ready and he preferred to find another solution > for the sponsor we got with him. Any board member can confirm that and juan too. We found that the solution to Well, I didn't see when you wrote that. But this makes the case totally different. Knowing this, your request sounds totally valid. Levente > get a simplemorphic was a good deal so that Juan does not feel embarassed about esug and the inverse. > Now you that believe what you want but I do not believe that this is really constructive. > > Stef > >> >> >> Levente >> >>> >>> Stef >> >> snip > > >

Nov. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] The next milestone reached!

by Igor Stasenko

Thanks for your efforts, Pavel. Having a basic kernel image is very important. Since then we could have a smallest possible piece, where everything starts from. Keep going! -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Nov. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [OT] Sponsor's requests (was: Re: [Ann][Cuis] New Cuis Release)

by Igor Stasenko

I think this is better to be discussed between ESUG and Juan, because they know exactly who was involved in what, and what work was sponsored. Speculating about it is counter constructive. :) On 6 November 2010 20:08, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Left blank on purpose .... > > > > On Nov 6, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > >> On Sat, 6 Nov 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> And why ESUG would like to be mentioned as a sponsor if this would not have been the case? >>> Do you think that I'm generally lying? I guess not but I apply the same question technic than you. :) >> >> Let's say you're wringting two books at the same time: Book1 and Book2. FGSW (Fictional Group Sponsoring Writers) is sponsoring Book2. Book2 is based on the foundations of Book1. Would you mention FGSW in the sponsors list of Book1 if they ask you to do, even though you know that they didn't support that work? >> >> >> Levente >> >>> >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Nov 6, 2010, at 4:04 PM, Levente Uzonyi wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 6 Nov 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>>> >>>>> you can add ESUG as sponsors >>>> >>>> Is the developement of Cuis sponsored by ESUG? >>>> >>>> >>>> Levente >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 5, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Juan Vuletich wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Cuis 2.8 is available at www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html . The release notes describes changes in recent versions (starting at 2.0). I believe many of the enhancements could be also useful for Pharo and rather easy to harvest. So, take a look! >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Juan Vuletich >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Nov. 6, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] About simple morphic

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks german This is what I think too but I like that other people express what they think :) So thanks. Stef On Nov 6, 2010, at 7:00 PM, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: > I'm not sure if my opinion can have some value because I'm more on the > web arena than in en desktop, but I've on my plans make somethings > (when time permit) using Morphic (Most rewriting things I did in the > past with Squeak). > > I think that if SimpleMorphic is loadable/unloadable and don't > generates bad effects in the Pharo environment, the proposal sound > correct and is a good way to have a Morphic simplification (A thing I > think we need). > > Just my opinion. > GermÃ¡n. > > > 2010/11/6 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> Hi guys >> >> the mail may be a bit long sorry. ESUG was supporting Morphic 3 (a new proposal) of Juan. Now it occurred that Juan realized that he will not be able to deliver what he wanted. So After discussion one idea was to get simpleMorphic (not lighMorphic) a simpler version of Morphic done by juan for Squeak and Pharo. We believe that this is good because Juan could deliver something and we could support him. >> >> Juan sent us the code and I published it at http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3210 >> >> Here is the original text: >> >>> I'm really happy to tell you: SimpleMorphic for Pharo is working! The attached zip file contains a few numbered change sets, to be installed in Pharo in order. >>> >>> The contents of the change sets are as follows: >>> - SMx01-PharoEnhAndPreliminaries-jmv.3.cs and SMx02-PharoEnhAndPreliminariesCoda.1.cs contain some refactoring needed to make it possible to add another GUI to Pharo. Nothing here is specific to SimpleMorphic, and I recommend integrating them into Pharo. >>> - SMx03-ExtensionMethodsPart1.3.cs contains a few useful methods, not specific to SimpleMorphic, but optional anyway. You might integrate this into Pharo or consider it part of SimpleMorphic. >>> - SMx04-SimpleMorphic.11.cs This change set is the big one. It includes all the new SimpleMorphic classes. It doesn't include any method for existing classes (to make review easier). >>> - SMx05-ExtensionMethodsPart2.7.cs This change set includes the SimpleMorphic specific methods I added to existing classes. >>> >>> After loading them, you can evaluate 'SimpleMorphicUIManager start' to enter SimpleMorphic and 'SimpleMorphicUIManager stop' to return to regular Morphic. >>> >>> As SimpleMorphic is much simpler and easier to understand that regular Morphic, my biggest hope is that the Pharo community will adopt it, study it in detail, and be able to adapt it to Pharo's needs all way down. No need to walk away from overwhelming complexity anymore. >>> >>> I look forward for your comments! >> >> >> Now after discussion with Juan: we plan to integrate SM01, 02, and 03 to be able to load SM04. >> SM04 is not in a shape were we can simply migrate on it >> - Polymorph first polymorph is tight with the old Morphic >> - Preference are still used >> - FillInTheBlank, PopUp.... are used. >> >> Now I suggest that we integrate 01.02.03 and package the rest to be loaded in 1.2 >> This way we can either update SimpleMorphic to get more pharoed or we could use it to study and fix morphic. >> But all that will require some work. >> >> Tell us what you think. >> >

Nov. 6, 2010