January 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Re: 64 bit images (was Re: The Trunk: Collections-dtl.268.mcz)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jan 4, 2010, at 10:47 PM, David T. Lewis wrote: > On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 09:30:45PM +0100, St?phane Ducasse wrote: >> david >> >> I would really like to continue the cleaning of SystemDictionary >> because I do not like the current state of affair. >> >> Now we can either have a namespace class (with only namespace behavior) >> and a imageManagement class >> >> Now we could have one variable Smalltalk to point to either of it. >> but we will need another name. >> Now the point behind the current (which I do not like but live with it is that) >> it would be cool to be able to do from my image some query into your image). >> This was about thinking about that that SmalltalkImage current got birth. >> >> Now I would love to get some discussions about a way to >> - have a class management class = SystemDictionary but with clean contents and cool name => namespace? >> (which often people confused with having namespace at the language level and it not part of the proposal >> don't open the box please) >> - have a cool abstraction over image housekeeping >> - a cool abstraction about vm information >> >> so if you have ideas please let me know. > > Stef, > > I think it would be good to step away from the details and just > think about the high level objects - what do they represent and what > are they responsible for (http://www.wirfs-brock.com/Design.html)? this is couple of years that I'm teaching oop design :) And I have been thinking about how to solve the social and historical issue around smalltalk since years. > Maybe there would be two or three classes involved, as few as possible. > Then write the class comments for the empty classes. Think about it > for a few weeks, and if it still makes sense then start the refactoring. > But I would not touch a single line of code until the class comments > are clearly written and understood. We already did that. This is the easy part. The problem is the overload of Smalltalk (the global name). Now SmalltalkImage could be called SmalltalkImageManagamentClass :) and its singleton be a global name smalltalkImage and it could be reached via Smalltalk Thinking about it we could avoid a global and have messages (much better) Smalltalk -> points to Namespace instance = SystemDictionary singleton Smalltalk image -> points to SmalltalkImage current Smalltalk vm -> points to SmalltalkImage/VM current Now it means that we get only one real global Which is good if one day we want to have real namespace or can help people like gulik to have them in. Of course this promote Smalltalk image snaphot kind of style Stef

Jan. 5, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

2010/1/5 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > You know someone (me). If the installation is not a moving target, then > I can add it to the list of things I do to create a new image, but having > Seaside in place has been appreciated. > Wait...one thing is not to have a PharoWeb image prepared and public so that people can download. But another thing is not to test. We have created a group of 13 beta testers where some of them will tests web images. They will test that using the metacello configuration. And if this is not working, we will make it work. I haven't time to tested by myself but as far as I know both seaside 2.8.4 and 3.0 metacello configurations are perfectly being load in a PharoDev image. So...seaside WILL be in place (if it not already done). > > In general, "that's xyz's problem" wears thin. Taken to extremes, it could > turn into "sure, the browser is broken, but that's not Pharo's doing; the > debugger trashes the image sometimes, but that's the external debugger > package that's to blame; you can't build stable web applications, but that's > not Pharo's problem, ..." > Of course. Buy we need help. Do you take care of fixing and integrating OB and O2 ? Cool. > True as some claims of this type might be, we won't be able to get away > with it forever, and we should have things that are known to work or look > for ways to replace them. > > Bill > > ------------------------------ > *From:* pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: > pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] *On Behalf Of *Mariano > Martinez Peck > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 05, 2010 8:37 AM > > *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images? > > > > 2010/1/5 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > >> My big concern is that either testing of Pharo will suffer (things that >> are made difficult tend not to happen), or that a bunch of us will end up >> with ad-hoc build processes rather than having it done in one place with a >> chance of getting it right. >> > > I don't think so. How many people do you think that are using PharoWeb? I > even don't know anyone. And we have enough beta testers for Dev images. And > the difference between Dev and Web images is that in Web there are also the > seaside packages, but there is NO change in the packages load. So, the only > issues that can appear in PharoWeb but not in PharoDev are those related to > Seaside, and that's seaside, not us. > > It would be cool to hear also the opinion of the pople who is using > pharoweb images (if there is anyone). > > Cheers > > Mariano > > >> >> Bill >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: >> pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] *On Behalf Of *Mariano >> Martinez Peck >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:02 AM >> *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images? >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Adrian Kuhn <akuhn(a)iam.unibe.ch> wrote: >> >>> Lukas Renggli <renggli@...> writes: >>> >>> > If you are really into building images, you should build them for YOU >>> > and not for anybody else. Otherwise, I think, they are never going to >>> > fly. >>> >>> +1 >>> >>> >> >> But the concern about this emails was final users, maybe even beginners >> and new comers. Most of us (who have some time with Pharo) use our own build >> images, but they do not. >> >> >> >>> --AA >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Jan. 5, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images?

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

You know someone (me). If the installation is not a moving target, then I can add it to the list of things I do to create a new image, but having Seaside in place has been appreciated. In general, "that's xyz's problem" wears thin. Taken to extremes, it could turn into "sure, the browser is broken, but that's not Pharo's doing; the debugger trashes the image sometimes, but that's the external debugger package that's to blame; you can't build stable web applications, but that's not Pharo's problem, ..." True as some claims of this type might be, we won't be able to get away with it forever, and we should have things that are known to work or look for ways to replace them. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 8:37 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images? 2010/1/5 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> My big concern is that either testing of Pharo will suffer (things that are made difficult tend not to happen), or that a bunch of us will end up with ad-hoc build processes rather than having it done in one place with a chance of getting it right. I don't think so. How many people do you think that are using PharoWeb? I even don't know anyone. And we have enough beta testers for Dev images. And the difference between Dev and Web images is that in Web there are also the seaside packages, but there is NO change in the packages load. So, the only issues that can appear in PharoWeb but not in PharoDev are those related to Seaside, and that's seaside, not us. It would be cool to hear also the opinion of the pople who is using pharoweb images (if there is anyone). Cheers Mariano Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr> [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr>] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:02 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images? On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Adrian Kuhn <akuhn(a)iam.unibe.ch<mailto:akuhn@iam.unibe.ch>> wrote: Lukas Renggli <renggli@...> writes: > If you are really into building images, you should build them for YOU > and not for anybody else. Otherwise, I think, they are never going to > fly. +1 But the concern about this emails was final users, maybe even beginners and new comers. Most of us (who have some time with Pharo) use our own build images, but they do not. --AA _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Jan. 5, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Building Pharo and Plugins for Mac OS X and Linux

by Javier PimÃ¡s

It's nice to see there's more info about VM's than I thought, it would be even nicer to have it all gathered in just one place and up to date so it's easier to find it. Recently I started compiling my own unix VMs and as I was very confused at first, I decided to write a small guide for beginers to share my experiences (and to remember the steps after some time). It has some still-unanswered questions, but is thought for beginners, so it might help you. The link is this: http://wwew.javipimas.com.ar/node/2 <http://www.javipimas.com.ar/node/2> hope it helps. regards, Javier. On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 1:21 AM, David T. Lewis <lewis(a)mail.msen.com> wrote: > On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 09:04:26PM +0100, St?phane Ducasse wrote: > > David > > check the squeak documentation on how to invoke external library with > FFI. > > In pharo you have also alien (not tested on non intel - works on mac). > > > > You do not have to recompile the vm to invoke external library. You > define methods with specific pragmas > > annotations and the plugin code can be invoked. > > > > One if these days we should write a better doc > > > > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2426 > > http://www.is.titech.ac.jp/~ohshima/squeak/DShowVideo/index.html<http://www.is.titech.ac.jp/%7Eohshima/squeak/DShowVideo/index.html> > > http://www.visoracle.com/squeak/faq/ffi-windows.html > > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/356 > > > > VMMaker is published on SqueakSource. > > May be people with more experience will comment. > > Tim Rowledge's explanation of VMMaker is here: > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2105 > > You will also find detailed instructions for VM builders along > with the platform source code, which is maintained in a Subversion > source code repository at squeakvm.org: > http://squeakvm.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/trunk/platforms/ > > For example, documentation on building for Unix (Linux) will > be found here: > > http://squeakvm.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/trunk/platforms/unix/doc/HowToBuild… > > And for Windows: > > http://squeakvm.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/trunk/platforms/win32/docs/?rev=2147 > which points to: > http://squeakvm.org/win32/ > > And for Mac OS: > > http://squeakvm.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/trunk/platforms/Mac%20OS/vm/Documen… > as well as other documents that John mentioned in his reply. > > In other words, after you download the platform source code from the > Subversion repository, you will find detailed documentation in the > subdirectory for each of the major platforms. > > There is also a mailing list for the VM: > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/vm-dev > > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Javier PimÃ¡s Ciudad de Buenos Aires

Jan. 5, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] What about having a blog with news in pharo website?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > Hi Mariano, > > Our website, pharo-project.org, is Cmsbox, not Pier. Ups....sorry. You are right :) > But anyway, we've > already set up a blog. The only problem is that nobody got round to > writing posts so far... > > mmmmmm I didn't now about that. Was that announced ? Anyway, that's really cool. > If you have a post to publish, please send it to me. Or I can grant > you access to publish it yourself. > Yes, I would like to publish!! I would like you have access (to see myself how it is rendered) but I also I would like you (or someone) to "check and valid" it before the submit. I remember (maybe I am wrong) that in Pier you can create the Post but don't put a publish date. This doesn't publish the post until you do that. So, if you have something similar in cmsbox, maybe we can use that strategy. The URL is http://www.pharo-project.org/news isn't it ? It would be cool if people start to post those kind of stuff. Cheers Mariano > Cheers, > Adrian > > On Jan 5, 2010, at 15:07 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > I know we discuss several times in ways to improve communication and > > documentation. But know I am being very precise: put a "news" > > section in the > > website. The website is written in Pier, so adding Blog should be > > really > > easy. Adding the Pier add on for colour highlighting would be even a > > dream. > > > > I think having a "news" section with RSS is a must nowadays in every > > software project. The mailing list has a lot of traffic (that's > > really cool) > > but there are a lot of people who cannot track it. So, having a > > place to > > read the news would be helpful. > > > > What kind of things we can post ? Examples: > > > > - I will announce soon the metacello configurations for external > > projects > > and after that the configuration for pharo. > > - ANN and news for external projects such as: Seaside, Metacello, > > Moose, > > Mars...whatever that runs on top of pharo > > - ANN for new dev images (after passing the beta test stage) > > - ANN of books > > - Now for example I can post that we have already started with the > > translation of PBE to spanish :) > > - Show progress and comments about Pharo sprints and coding sessions > > - Big decisions taken. For example if we agree to remove PharoWeb > > images > > - Success stories. Projects that goes on production or that have just > > started with Pharo > > - Comment lessons, presentations or conference where someone spoke > > about > > pharo > > - A lot of things more. > > > > I know the idea of the website is not to be too technical but I > > think these > > kind of stuff are not technical at all. > > > > Then we should see how and who post. In pier I subclass Blog with a > > new > > class that requires authorization for an admin users. Then there is > > a little > > component only for admins that let you browse the posts and > > authorize them. > > If you want I can send them to you. > > > > Cheers > > > > Mariano > > > > pd: sorry for the amount of "this kind of mails" that I am sending > > in the > > last weeks > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Jan. 5, 2010

[Pharo-project] [update] #10504

by Adrian Lienhard

10504 ----- Issue 1741: Gofer broken on PharoCore 1.0 Issue 1719: After running all tests, mac menus for tools and debug are gone ___________________ http://www.adrian-lienhard.ch/

Jan. 5, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] What about having a blog with news in pharo website?

by Adrian Lienhard

Hi Mariano, Our website, pharo-project.org, is Cmsbox, not Pier. But anyway, we've already set up a blog. The only problem is that nobody got round to writing posts so far... If you have a post to publish, please send it to me. Or I can grant you access to publish it yourself. Cheers, Adrian On Jan 5, 2010, at 15:07 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > I know we discuss several times in ways to improve communication and > documentation. But know I am being very precise: put a "news" > section in the > website. The website is written in Pier, so adding Blog should be > really > easy. Adding the Pier add on for colour highlighting would be even a > dream. > > I think having a "news" section with RSS is a must nowadays in every > software project. The mailing list has a lot of traffic (that's > really cool) > but there are a lot of people who cannot track it. So, having a > place to > read the news would be helpful. > > What kind of things we can post ? Examples: > > - I will announce soon the metacello configurations for external > projects > and after that the configuration for pharo. > - ANN and news for external projects such as: Seaside, Metacello, > Moose, > Mars...whatever that runs on top of pharo > - ANN for new dev images (after passing the beta test stage) > - ANN of books > - Now for example I can post that we have already started with the > translation of PBE to spanish :) > - Show progress and comments about Pharo sprints and coding sessions > - Big decisions taken. For example if we agree to remove PharoWeb > images > - Success stories. Projects that goes on production or that have just > started with Pharo > - Comment lessons, presentations or conference where someone spoke > about > pharo > - A lot of things more. > > I know the idea of the website is not to be too technical but I > think these > kind of stuff are not technical at all. > > Then we should see how and who post. In pier I subclass Blog with a > new > class that requires authorization for an admin users. Then there is > a little > component only for admins that let you browse the posts and > authorize them. > If you want I can send them to you. > > Cheers > > Mariano > > pd: sorry for the amount of "this kind of mails" that I am sending > in the > last weeks > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Jan. 5, 2010

[Pharo-project] What about having a blog with news in pharo website?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

I know we discuss several times in ways to improve communication and documentation. But know I am being very precise: put a "news" section in the website. The website is written in Pier, so adding Blog should be really easy. Adding the Pier add on for colour highlighting would be even a dream. I think having a "news" section with RSS is a must nowadays in every software project. The mailing list has a lot of traffic (that's really cool) but there are a lot of people who cannot track it. So, having a place to read the news would be helpful. What kind of things we can post ? Examples: - I will announce soon the metacello configurations for external projects and after that the configuration for pharo. - ANN and news for external projects such as: Seaside, Metacello, Moose, Mars...whatever that runs on top of pharo - ANN for new dev images (after passing the beta test stage) - ANN of books - Now for example I can post that we have already started with the translation of PBE to spanish :) - Show progress and comments about Pharo sprints and coding sessions - Big decisions taken. For example if we agree to remove PharoWeb images - Success stories. Projects that goes on production or that have just started with Pharo - Comment lessons, presentations or conference where someone spoke about pharo - A lot of things more. I know the idea of the website is not to be too technical but I think these kind of stuff are not technical at all. Then we should see how and who post. In pier I subclass Blog with a new class that requires authorization for an admin users. Then there is a little component only for admins that let you browse the posts and authorize them. If you want I can send them to you. Cheers Mariano pd: sorry for the amount of "this kind of mails" that I am sending in the last weeks

Jan. 5, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images?

by Geert Claes

csrabak wrote: > > ... >> 3) Tomorrow we can have AidaWeb images based in pharo (please Janko!!) >> so we can just do the >> same and put the link to those images. > > While I'm fond of the idea on having AidaWeb very soon as possible, I also > think we should put ourselves in Janko's shoes and understand that he'll > need to master Metacelllo to arrive at the packaging. . . > +1 csrabak wrote: > > ... > I would postpone the publishing of these kind of scripts for a much more > stable Pharo and Metacello (or packaging solution ensuing), otherwise > you'll have the same work as testing the scripts means creating and > testing the packages!! > Once Pharo has arrived at a stage where it is extremely easy to manage components/project packages - both from the project and user's point of view - there will still a place to provide a stable environment for those interrested in a dev/web/seaside/aidaweb/glass etc type of image. >From a testing and support point of view, this discussion actually makes me think in a way about the "Pharo-beginner mailing list" suggestion. Pharo's main focuss is on Pharo-Core. On top of Pharo core there may be a number of projects e.g : Pharo-Seaside, Pharo-AIDAWeb, Pharo-Moose, Pharo-GLASS, which all can be loaded into (or un-loaded from) the image (I guess the ConfigurationOfNnnn type scripts). There should be no loss in testers because issues can still be logged, discussed and escallated to the issue culprit, whether it was a configuration script issue or a Pharo-Core issue, no? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/What-about-killing-PharoWeb-images-tp4249050p4255309.h… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 5, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

2010/1/5 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> > My big concern is that either testing of Pharo will suffer (things that > are made difficult tend not to happen), or that a bunch of us will end up > with ad-hoc build processes rather than having it done in one place with a > chance of getting it right. > I don't think so. How many people do you think that are using PharoWeb? I even don't know anyone. And we have enough beta testers for Dev images. And the difference between Dev and Web images is that in Web there are also the seaside packages, but there is NO change in the packages load. So, the only issues that can appear in PharoWeb but not in PharoDev are those related to Seaside, and that's seaside, not us. It would be cool to hear also the opinion of the pople who is using pharoweb images (if there is anyone). Cheers Mariano > > Bill > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: > pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] *On Behalf Of *Mariano > Martinez Peck > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:02 AM > *To:* Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images? > > > > On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Adrian Kuhn <akuhn(a)iam.unibe.ch> wrote: > >> Lukas Renggli <renggli@...> writes: >> >> > If you are really into building images, you should build them for YOU >> > and not for anybody else. Otherwise, I think, they are never going to >> > fly. >> >> +1 >> >> > > But the concern about this emails was final users, maybe even beginners and > new comers. Most of us (who have some time with Pharo) use our own build > images, but they do not. > > > >> --AA >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Jan. 5, 2010