August 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Display depth on Linux

by Hernan Wilkinson

yeap, it was that, thanks! 2009/8/9 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > > > 2009/8/9 Hernan Wilkinson <hernan.wilkinson(a)gmail.com> > >> On linux, when setting Display Depth to something else than 32, it is >> impossible to recongnize something on the screen. >> We did some research with Juan Vuletich on this and it sounds like an >> error on the VMnot the Smalltalk code >> We try it on Ubuntu 9.04, 64 bits. Is this a known bug? >> > > > Do you have Compiz activated? > > >> >> Hernan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Aug. 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Squeak 4.x should adopt Pharo 1.0

by Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez

El lun, 10-08-2009 a las 21:07 +0100, Keith Hodges escribiÃ³: > Dear All, > > As far as I see it the only sensible way ahead for squeak 3.11 is to > adopt Pharo 1.0 as the next base version of squeak (i.e. 4.0), and to > begin a series of initiatives to promote compatibility with squeak > pieces that pharo doesn't support. > > The previous squeak 3.11 vision accepted, and now rejected, by the > squeak board was to develop a process that would allow squeak to harvest > the contributions of all the other forks, or other major initiatives, > and for significant contributions to be shared by all the forks. > > All of a sudden there was an "oh no pharo is ahead of us" panic that > ensued last month as a result of new squeak-dev people that were not > involved in, nor seemed aware of the goals of the 3.11 process. Within > this process Pharo may simply be viewed as a research project carried > out on behalf of the wider squeak community, that will be harvestable in > good time. I don't agree with you on this point. Pharo has its own merits to exists and it didn't fork as a "research project" for the squeak community. As its web page states, its goal is: "to deliver a clean, innovative, open-source *Smalltalk*" emphasis mine. Not a clean Squeak. As the day pass the foundations grow stronger and itself gains more and more identity and independence. This, if nothing really big happens on Squeak, will attract more developers and new users. There is no date yet to deliver a new version of Squeak, and this, together with the Pharo 1.0 release, will be less energy to try to maintain code for several forks and several packages will choose to support the one with more *apparent* users. What I want to say is, there is, as each day pass, less homesick for the past and more joy for the future. > > However now that this idea is no longer going to be developed, we need > to limit the number of diverging active forks as much as possible, > rather than creating new ones ("trunk" makes the problem worse not > better). This is a point that I have never accepted of your thesis. There is no way to put all the "forks" in the same process/mindshare/goals/repositories. It is impossible. Even if they do it just for upsetting people. This isn't going to happen. The forks, as the young people, want to be free, independents, of its parents. They don't want to be like their parents project but a little different. They WANT to be better (whatever this means to the fork) and independent. They want to learn their own lessons. If for accident they happen to be compatible good, but if not, well, as the Linux community can show, there can not be a single distro neither a single code base that runs in every distro. How they solved it, by assinging mainteiner of each package that tracks the upstream project and adapt it to the specific distro. Something like this will happen with squeak/pharo/cuis. The upstream developers will have its development platform but someone else will adapt it to other platforms. > Once the output of "trunk" is released in whatever form we will > then have yet another base image to manage code for, and I don't think > that that is an acceptable outcome. > > When it comes to the elections next year, if there is anyone who would > like to run on the "Squeak to adopt Pharo" ticket, then I will vote for > them. > If this happen, then good for both of the communities. But until this happen, most new users will learn by the lists about pharo and when trying and comparing it to squeak, will make its choice. Some of them will stay with squeak, some of them will try again squeak when a new release is made and some of them will stay with pharo for ever. One (at least me) can't be jumping or using several smalltalk versions (the same way that I don't like to administer linux of several flavors, it add unnecessary complexity and work). > best regards > > Keith > > p.p.s. Bob is not going to be released as open source, if you would like > the ability to build your images daily, and run the test suites against > your deliverables, then please do email me for licensing terms. > This is really a sad thing to read. Of course it is your decision, bad for us as it sound as Bob was a very good piece of software. On the other side, this sounds also like a emotional response more than a rational one. But if the community can't use your code, well, like the BitKeeper on the Linux kernel code case, someone will have to think something. -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

Aug. 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Updating a Pharo image is now possible

by Douglas Brebner

Stan Shepherd wrote: > Douglas Brebner wrote: > >> Stan Shepherd wrote: >> >>> Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 5:37 AM, stan shepherd >>>> <stan.shepherd414(a)gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Damien, it gives the same error on >>>>> 'Morphic-adrian_lienhard.345.mcz'. And it seems **very** slow, ie >>>>> running for hours. Is that expected? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I don't think so. In make case, when it takes a hours is because there >>>> is >>>> Nod32 activated ;) >>>> You must exclude Squeak folders from Nod32. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> I don't think so- it's all Linux here. I gather Nod32 is a Windows >>> antivirus. >>> >>> >> Are you using it on a network drive? That can be horrifically slow too >> >> >> > > It's right here on my machine - which is quite well speced. I do have a > firewall at the router, and OenDNS as the DNS server. I also still had > Seaside running while updating - is that an issue? > > It's just that loading packages do *lot* of small accesses to the changes+sources files so if they're on a network drive it's possible to get round trip latency on every access. When I moved my files from a network drive to a local one, loading a package could go from 20+ minutes to less than one.

Aug. 10, 2009

[Pharo-project] Https client

by Hernan Wilkinson

Hi, we need to issue a post using https. We read about SWHTTPClient and CurlPlugIn. It sounds like SWHTTPClient does not support Https correctly (from what we read, is that right? ), so we tried CurlPlugIn but we could not make it work. We tried to download VMMaker from Universes to build the plug-in and it did not download (it gives a compile error). So, could somebody help us with this? Is somebody using CurlPlugIn on Linux 64 bits or 32 bits? Is there a place to download the binary code instead of having to build it? Or is it there another client to issue https requests? Thanks, Hernan.

Aug. 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] How to build a GUI

by nullPointer

csrabak wrote: > > Taking profit this subject is somewhat a revisit of the "Making GUI'S" > one, I would like to know if the implementer of the "Pharo Squeak > Smalltalk UIBuilder tool sample (I)" video > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHbc1t83fEI participates of this list? > > The six minutes video is worth seeing by itself, but it doesn't give any > further info on availability of the "framework" :-( > > Regards, > > -- > Cesar Rabak > Excuse me for my poor english. IÂ´m developing the UIBuilder of Youtube video. The development not is ended, and is in a Pre Beta state. I believe than in two weeks i could up in SqueakSource; but exists two or three problems, how for example the way of morph builded persistence. My knowledge of Smalltalk and Pharo-Squeak is poor and limited, but i continue working.So it would be necessary that yours recommended me the best way to me to do according to which things when i finished the first step. Now im developing a "Resources editor" and a "Context menu editor", and implementing too a way for embedding views into another views, ala VisualWorks, of easy way. Here three snapshots: http://img41.imageshack.us/i/uibuilder1.png/ http://img40.imageshack.us/i/uibuilder2.png/ http://img194.imageshack.us/i/uibuilder3.png/ Regards -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/How-to-build-a-GUI-tp3419005p3419792.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] Updating a Pharo image is now possible

by Stan Shepherd

Douglas Brebner wrote: > > Stan Shepherd wrote: >> Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 5:37 AM, stan shepherd >>> <stan.shepherd414(a)gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hi Damien, it gives the same error on >>>> 'Morphic-adrian_lienhard.345.mcz'. And it seems **very** slow, ie >>>> running for hours. Is that expected? >>>> >>> I don't think so. In make case, when it takes a hours is because there >>> is >>> Nod32 activated ;) >>> You must exclude Squeak folders from Nod32. >>> >>> >>> >> >> I don't think so- it's all Linux here. I gather Nod32 is a Windows >> antivirus. >> > Are you using it on a network drive? That can be horrifically slow too > > It's right here on my machine - which is quite well speced. I do have a firewall at the router, and OenDNS as the DNS server. I also still had Seaside running while updating - is that an issue? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/-ANN--Updating-a-Pharo-image-is-now-possible-tp3408773… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 10, 2009

[Pharo-project] Squeak 4.x should adopt Pharo 1.0

by Keith Hodges

Dear All, As far as I see it the only sensible way ahead for squeak 3.11 is to adopt Pharo 1.0 as the next base version of squeak (i.e. 4.0), and to begin a series of initiatives to promote compatibility with squeak pieces that pharo doesn't support. The previous squeak 3.11 vision accepted, and now rejected, by the squeak board was to develop a process that would allow squeak to harvest the contributions of all the other forks, or other major initiatives, and for significant contributions to be shared by all the forks. All of a sudden there was an "oh no pharo is ahead of us" panic that ensued last month as a result of new squeak-dev people that were not involved in, nor seemed aware of the goals of the 3.11 process. Within this process Pharo may simply be viewed as a research project carried out on behalf of the wider squeak community, that will be harvestable in good time. However now that this idea is no longer going to be developed, we need to limit the number of diverging active forks as much as possible, rather than creating new ones ("trunk" makes the problem worse not better). Once the output of "trunk" is released in whatever form we will then have yet another base image to manage code for, and I don't think that that is an acceptable outcome. When it comes to the elections next year, if there is anyone who would like to run on the "Squeak to adopt Pharo" ticket, then I will vote for them. best regards Keith p.p.s. Bob is not going to be released as open source, if you would like the ability to build your images daily, and run the test suites against your deliverables, then please do email me for licensing terms.

Aug. 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] How to build a GUI

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Aug. 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] a process to maintain non core package

by Douglas Brebner

Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez wrote: > El dom, 09-08-2009 a las 21:01 +0100, Keith Hodges escribiÃ³: > >> Keith Hodges wrote: >> >>> Adrian Lienhard wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I really think we need a package management system and a process to >>>> maintain it. >>>> >>>> The goal is that loading and using non-core packages "just >>>> works" >>>> >> Same goal as for Sake/Packages, and it works for me. >> >> >>>> (unlike for instance SqueakMap, where loading more often fails >>>> than succeeds because there are a lot of obsolete packages and a >>>> dependency mechanism is missing). >>>> >>>> - There should be a responsible maintainer for each package >>>> >>>> >> Not a realistic proposition. Better to be open to all to maintain on >> behalf of the community. >> > > Why not, the debian project use this model since 1996 or something like > that. > The same package system the use report packages not maintained anymore > (orphans and waiting for mantainer) > > >>>> - For each package there should be a known way to discuss and report >>>> problems >>>> >>>> >> That's just arbitrary metadata in the package definition, for more >> general topics we use the packages(a)squeakfoundation.org mailing list >> >>>> - A gate keeper includes and removes packages from the set depending >>>> on their status >>>> >>>> >> Probably too complicated to be practical. >> >>>> This limits the set of included packages (at least initially) but >>>> would increase the quality and hence the user experience. >>>> >>>> Maybe there could be two sets, a stable and an unstable set. New >>>> >>>> >> Sake/Packages supports a stable and a beta release of each package. >> >>>> packages would first go to the unstable set and then move up to the >>>> stable set after a while. >>>> >>>> An automated build process could load packages into new builds and >>>> report the result of the tests. >>>> >>>> >> Bob does that. >> >>>> The package management system does not need to be very sophisticated, >>>> >>>> >> Sake is as simple as possible for defining actions with dependencies. >> >>>> but it should manage dependencies and have a simple GUI (to search for >>>> packages and see what is already loaded). >>>> >>>> >> Sake/Packages uses the class browser as is, no extra GUI is required. >> >> Packages provided explore >> >> shows you what is loaded, and this should be merged into >> PackageOrganization. >> >> Keith >> > > Keith, it really appear that you have built the platform to bring this > dream a reality, but somehow (the details are not relevant now) you > haven't materialized a "steve jobs" kind of show off of it. > I believe your words, based on your other projects that I use. What do > you need, as Stephan said, to bring a complete, working, and as simple > to understand for all of us of your tools. > This is my proposal: > > I think that if you can put a working example (minimal, a couple of > packages, and the core) using Pharo, the pharo community happily will > support you. No more fights, no more angry mails, just the working full > simple demo. > I offer to you access to a server with a homologated IP to install (I > can help you here too) to setup the repositories to test your tools. > If the community agree to use your tools and process I can also buy and > donate the domain to host this infrastructure. In the beginning I will > host it, if someday it grows more than I can support (bandwidth mainly, > the space isn't problem) then we will discuss with the community to > migrate the repos to a bigger servers or to ask for donations or some > other party that can host it (maybe the folks of seasidehosting). We'll > see in that moment. > > But, Keith, we need to see to believe and support you. > > > I've seen Keiths Seaside gui he made for Bob though I don't know if he wants it to be shown around. It looks nice. Here's a quick explanation for those not familiar with them. Sake is essentially Make for Smalltalk, allowing you to define tasks that can depend on other tasks. Bob is a build tool, which handles all the actual building using Sake tasks to define what to do. With Bob+Sake, you can define a build to: 1. Start with a defined image. 2. Load a set of packages into that image (either specific versions or the latest ones). 3. Apply specific fixes from the bug tracker. 4. Run tests. 5. Save the new image and export all the new package versions to a new folder. You can define tasks to apply features to an image such as closures or perform updates between versions or even update applications. For example, you can define tasks to do the following sort of things Pharo1.0beta -> Pharo1.0final Pharo1.0beta -> Pharo-latest. Squeak 3.10.2 image -> 3.10.2+closures. Squeak 3.8 image -> 3.8+closures. Seaside 2.8 -> 2.9. Pharo-latest -> Pharo-latest + Seaside-latest + your own favourite packages. Once defined, these will allow anyone to repeatably and reliably produce an updated image+packages without changing the original image. You can then do things like upgrade a production image based on 1.0beta to 1.0final just by using the same task but telling it to start with your production image instead of the 1.0beta distribution image. Since it produces a new image you don't risk clobbering your original. You should also be able to replace the update stream with distributing build definitions for Bob. I believe one of the key points to this setup is that you don't need to work on the image as a single blob any more, you only work on the packages and use Bob to handle the messy image building stuff. That does depend on the image being sectioned into packages of course. If I've had any misunderstandings here I hope Keith will correct me but the system looks awesome :)

Aug. 10, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] How to build a GUI

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Taking profit this subject is somewhat a revisit of the "Making GUI'S" one, I would like to know if the implementer of the "Pharo Squeak Smalltalk UIBuilder tool sample (I)" video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHbc1t83fEI participates of this list? The six minutes video is worth seeing by itself, but it doesn't give any further info on availability of the "framework" :-( Regards, -- Cesar Rabak

Aug. 10, 2009