August 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Chris Muller

shutDown: already provides a boolean indicating whether a quit is about to occur or not. I suppose any code is welcome not to cleanUp properly if it's not a quitting situation.. What feels wrong to me would be to save "garbage" (what will be unusable sockets, etc.) into the saved image. > occurance would clobber all sockets, all web users, all database > connections, Which is why first-class connections / sockets should be used, which don't depend on their underlying physical socket to be always connected. This is what Magma does. A socket can get disconnected at any time for a variety of reasons, not just an image save/shutdown. I think the software should, transparently to the user, reestablish connections lazily, making saving the image a non-issue. - Chris

Aug. 28, 2009

[Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown - random thoughts

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

The Squeak startUp and shutDown lists are notified with resuming and quitting flags, respectively. Behavior has #startUp: and #shutDown: methods that forward to #startUp and #shutDown without the flags. It might be enough to make those forwards conditional, such that the startup and shutdown work occurs only if something really changed. Forwarding when resuming and when quitting comes to mind, but that seems almost too easy though. I also see "quit and not resuming" in the snapshot code, which might be a warning to the wise. OSPlatform is not terribly far away from Dolphin session managers, but it appears not to be widely used, at least for shartup and shutdown. It also understandably uses inheritance to differentiate the operating systems, and session managers use it to differentiate the IDE vs. desktop and console apps; so they probably should be separate anyway. Having a lot of code written in terms of SessionManager, I am going to build one to see if I can get the correct behavior. The tricky part might be to confirm that it works as intended; OutputDebugString might do the job on Windows. I appear not to be alone in wondering whether there is an equivalent on Linux - there is then some mention of syslog() and using tail to retrieve it; the latter is familiar. Another thing to consider is that Dolphin also uses levels of startup. For a while I did something to add a level that was guaranteed to happen after the event loop was established, but OA eventually addressed the associated problems. IIRC my code more or less worked regardless of that change, but something similar will no doubt arise here; #wakeTopWindowUponStartup appears suggestive of it. If any of this makes sense to you, please speak up :) Bill

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Latest dev image on Mac

by Alexandre Bergel

> I updated yesterday before 10421 is released. I just tried again, and > the core image freezes when I update it Oups, forget this email. It freezed for a while before waking up. Alexandre > > >> >> Alexandre >> >> >> On 28 Aug 2009, at 03:19, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> >>> Why do you udpate a dev image? It is well-know that you should not >>> update from a dev. >>> We will remove the menu. >>> >>> Do you have the same problem with a core? >>> Stef >>> >>>> I updated the lastest dev image, save as another name, and it >>>> freezes. >>>> Alt-. does not help in waking it up. >>>> >>>> Alexandre >>>> >>>> >>>> On 27 Aug 2009, at 18:59, Ramiro Diaz Trepat wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi guys, >>>>> If I download the lastest dev image, run an update, save & quit >>>>> and >>>>> then restart. The image never starts again. >>>>> I am running on a mac with the latest vm. >>>>> There is no problem at all with any image where I did not load the >>>>> latest updates. >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> r. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo- >>>>> project >>>> >>>> -- >>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Latest dev image on Mac

by Alexandre Bergel

> No, it is fine with a core. The problems occurs only with the dev > for me I updated yesterday before 10421 is released. I just tried again, and the core image freezes when I update it Alexandre > > Alexandre > > > On 28 Aug 2009, at 03:19, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> >> Why do you udpate a dev image? It is well-know that you should not >> update from a dev. >> We will remove the menu. >> >> Do you have the same problem with a core? >> Stef >> >>> I updated the lastest dev image, save as another name, and it >>> freezes. >>> Alt-. does not help in waking it up. >>> >>> Alexandre >>> >>> >>> On 27 Aug 2009, at 18:59, Ramiro Diaz Trepat wrote: >>> >>>> Hi guys, >>>> If I download the lastest dev image, run an update, save & quit and >>>> then restart. The image never starts again. >>>> I am running on a mac with the latest vm. >>>> There is no problem at all with any image where I did not load the >>>> latest updates. >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> r. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> -- >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Latest dev image on Mac

by Alexandre Bergel

No, it is fine with a core. The problems occurs only with the dev for me Alexandre On 28 Aug 2009, at 03:19, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > Why do you udpate a dev image? It is well-know that you should not > update from a dev. > We will remove the menu. > > Do you have the same problem with a core? > Stef > >> I updated the lastest dev image, save as another name, and it >> freezes. >> Alt-. does not help in waking it up. >> >> Alexandre >> >> >> On 27 Aug 2009, at 18:59, Ramiro Diaz Trepat wrote: >> >>> Hi guys, >>> If I download the lastest dev image, run an update, save & quit and >>> then restart. The image never starts again. >>> I am running on a mac with the latest vm. >>> There is no problem at all with any image where I did not load the >>> latest updates. >>> Cheers >>> >>> r. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Aug. 28, 2009

[Pharo-project] [ANN] 10421, 10422

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

- Issue 1079: StringMorph cleaning when contents: - Issue 1089: Pragma >> #analogousCodeTo: missing'. >>> not fixed! - Issue 1037: Enhanced Strike fonts.

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, I am not quite willing to speak of Dolphin in the past tense, as there is a collaboration between Object Arts and Lesser. My interest is not so much running on macs as running off of Windows. Depending on various forces, I might turn into a mac user, but for now Linux looks like the escape plan. Oddly enough, I was trying to figure out if I could reasonably organize a fork of Squeak (and very much doubted that I could make it happen) when I learned of Saphire. Thanks for getting all of this going! Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 2:29 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown On Aug 28, 2009, at 2:23 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Hello all, > > I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no real > surprise that they exist. However, I am struck by a strong belief > that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and shutdown is > very high on that list. this is clear that dolphin people always value code quality over hyper innovation. If dolphin would work on mac and (if it was going open source except of been killed) I would use it daily. > > No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a > somewhat extrmeme example. Suppose a server is using an ORB to do SSL > protected communications with various servers and clients, some > Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Are we content > with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the image? I > submit that this is a flawed design. Worst case, the vm knows when it > loads an image and could tell the image that it happened. From there, > a lot of extra work could be dumped. > > Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, but > it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential > offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that time. > External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but not image > save. This will strike again with native windows, as the current > approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have everything released > and reopened on image save, which would be very inefficient. > > I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am > seriously thinking of creating it. It would trigger events for starup > and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Can it be donw without hacking > the vm? > > Bill > > > > =========================================================== > > [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 > 22:48:34 CEST 2009 > > * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue > to performance??? > * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to > performance??? > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after saving > as if a fresh startup occured As you seem to suggest, a possible > alternative without using fork would be to: > 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image (primSnapshot > returning true or false...) > 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image > 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up in > case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) > > Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an > uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... > > Nicolas > > 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: >> Nicolas, >> >> One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? IIRC, Dolphin >> triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers >> then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to >> force a lazy connection. >> >> I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it >> starts and stops. What I do not get is why the vm does not tell it. >> If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Sometimes the >> truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or lack >> thereof). >> >> Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Latest dev image on Mac

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I got a problem with core when I did an update from 414 but I retried and it worked. Really strange. Stef On Aug 28, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote: > Ramiro Diaz Trepat wrote: >> Hi guys, >> If I download the lastest dev image, run an update, save & quit and >> then >> restart. The image never starts again. >> I am running on a mac with the latest vm. >> There is no problem at all with any image where I did not load the >> latest updates. > > I have that too with a core image. I first thought it was from Snow > Leopard but an older version of the image worked. > > Cheers > Philippe > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Latest dev image on Mac

by Philippe Marschall

Ramiro Diaz Trepat wrote: > Hi guys, > If I download the lastest dev image, run an update, save & quit and then > restart. The image never starts again. > I am running on a mac with the latest vm. > There is no problem at all with any image where I did not load the > latest updates. I have that too with a core image. I first thought it was from Snow Leopard but an older version of the image worked. Cheers Philippe

Aug. 28, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Miguel, Good point. I think the most compelling reasons are correctness and native windows. The latter will be most flexibly handled (at least in part) by FFI/Alien, and the current situation will bring that to a halt. I will very likely build some minimal sesion managers. With some cleverness, it might be possible to do with information we have available now - no promises though :) Any clever ideas? I am torn between thinking that lazy initialization should be enough and thinking that the vm will have to tell the image it has just been started. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:19 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown El jue, 27-08-2009 a las 21:55 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribiÃ³: > Sig, > > I must disagree, because there is more to what I am saying than simply to skip cleanup (I am saying to do it in two parts, each at the correct time and only at the correct time). Further, the current behavior has nothing to do with shutdown - it is done pre and post snapshot. Dolphin has it right; we should borrow the idea. > > Bill Well, I suppose that there is a compelling reason to have it. Just one more scenario that I think that will be common, not that there won't be others that really need a solution like you describe: In a big web app, for example, you'll deploy a lot of PharoCore images (or better yet, PharoKernel as the one Pavel announced today) that manage each of them a lot of sessions of the users. The important data to save each time is outside the image, maybe on magma, a rdbs or in the file system, for files uploaded to the webapp. In case an error show up, I should have to modify all the images and save them all. Better is to patch the PharoCore template image and to restart them all to get a consistent fix on all the images at almost the same time. If I were to do it by hand, and saving each image, this will mean maybe hours to finish. In a case like this, it is more practical to restart the server with a minimal programed and announced maintenance window. But, as Stef likes to say: code, code, code! I have never used Dolphin. You have more experience with it and maybe you could port the code or implement a brand new based on that ideas and contribute it to Pharo. I will be glad to test it, of course. Cheers > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Igor > Stasenko > Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:26 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown > > As a compromise, i suggest to introduce 2 different shutdown modes: > - with cleanup > - without cleanup > > and then reflect it in UI, or > in system preferences. > Case closed :) > > 2009/8/28 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>: > > I am not so sure it will not be a big deal. With an open system, there is no reason not to use development tools to make changes on production machines, and saving the image would be part of that process; every occurance would clobber all sockets, all web users, all database connections, etc. It's something that just feels wrong in capital letters, and we are trying to fix things. > > > > It definitely smells bad from a scientific computation perspective where external connections and saving the image are very common. > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of > > Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez > > Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:57 PM > > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Startup/shutdown > > > > El jue, 27-08-2009 a las 20:23 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribiÃ³: > >> Hello all, > >> > >> I am doing some more porting and hitting some trouble spots - no real surprise that they exist. However, I am struck by a strong belief that Dolphin has a lot of things right, and startup and shutdown is very high on that list. > >> > >> No offense to Nicolas, who has been quite helpful, let's consider a somewhat extrmeme example. Suppose a server is using an ORB to do SSL protected communications with various servers and clients, some Seaside work, and has a few database connections open. Are we content with having to close and reopen all of that just to save the image? I submit that this is a flawed design. Worst case, the vm knows when it loads an image and could tell the image that it happened. From there, a lot of extra work could be dumped. > >> > >> Nicolas is quite right that step (2) below must be done carefully, but it has been handled nicely in Dolphin by registering potential offenders in the startup triggers and doing the cleanup at that time. External resources are released on a shutdown trigger, but not image save. This will strike again with native windows, as the current approach would (stop me if this is a fallacy) have everything released and reopened on image save, which would be very inefficient. > >> > >> I have code that expects a class called SessionManager, and I am seriously thinking of creating it. It would trigger events for starup and shutdown, help with logging, etc. Can it be donw without hacking the vm? > >> > > > > Just a question, what is the big deal with this, as you most often save on a development environment and not in a production environment. And as the number of saves on a production environment are seldom, it isn't a problem I think. > > In the dev enviroment you are pointing to dev services and you have few open conections/whatever so that is not a big deal either. > > > > > >> Bill > >> > >> > >> > >> =========================================================== > >> > >> [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > >> Nicolas Cellier nicolas.cellier.aka.nice at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 > >> 22:48:34 CEST 2009 > >> > >> * Previous message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > >> * Next message: [Pharo-project] Save and quit vs. Save - a clue to performance??? > >> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author > >> ] > >> > >> Current policy is to cleanup before saving, and reconnect after > >> saving as if a fresh startup occured As you seem to suggest, a > >> possible alternative without using fork would be to: > >> 1) distinguish whether this is a newly restarted image > >> (primSnapshot returning true or false...) > >> 2) perform all the clean-ups at startup if newly restarted image > >> 3) rely on the process exit() to perform required resource clean-up > >> in case we quit (or let a self aboutToQuit do some) > >> > >> Step 2) would deserve great care, any unprotected access to an > >> uninitialized pointer of the old image would crash or trash memory... > >> > >> Nicolas > >> > >> 2009/7/16 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab at anest.ufl.edu>: > >> > Nicolas, > >> > > >> > One thing I forgot to mention: thread safety??? IIRC, Dolphin triggers startup events, and all external resources clear pointers then (though they will release on shutdown, not image saving) to force a lazy connection. > >> > > >> > I see why, absent help from the vm, the image does not know when it starts and stops. What I do not get is why the vm does not tell it. If it did, I _think_ we could clean all of this up. Sometimes the truth hurts though, so please find any faults in my logic (or lack thereof). > >> > > >> > Bill > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > > Miguel CobÃ¡ > > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 28, 2009