August 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

by Marcus Denker

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > Stef, > > I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead? > For one, the page http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/About.html you can read: *Croquet is no longer under active development And the http://opencroquet.org/ site seems to be not actively maintained. Last news from 2008, all about cobalt. I don't see any that anyone actually claims to be a member of the consortium, either. Not much happening in Cobalt, it seems. I actually wonder if they have anyone on the team with advanced technical knowledge about the deep inner working of Croquet or even just the Squeak parts. All very strange.... I am happy that I am not involved in it or the politics around all this. Looks all very ugly to me. Marcus > Bill > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of StÃ©phane Ducasse > Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr; lenglish5(a)cox.net > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc. > > > On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote: > >> Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm >> working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns >> on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part >> here: >> One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the >> build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous >> options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all >> run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual >> world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script >> things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with >> potentialky thousands of other people. >> >> The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the >> builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have >> tested. > > what do you mean by the previous sentence? > >> If Â someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to >> install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a >> seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts, >> version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the >> Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile >> install. >> >> If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working, >> one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/ >> seaside and Second LIfe. > > Keep us informed it looks exciting. > >> (interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the >> reader ;-)) > > I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project. > >> Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to >> look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something >> to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you >> that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a >> project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, >> etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote >> seaside/smalltalk use. > > May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas? > mixing SL in Smalltalk :) > >> Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate. >> >> Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second >> Life >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)acm.org http://www.marcusdenker.de

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Squeak 4.x should adopt Pharo 1.0

by Alexandre Bergel

On a 1.0betaCore-10401, I have the evil error. > 'eureka' . ' EUREKA' > > I get no single method.... If I proceed, I also have no single method. There is something broken since: 'eureka' asUppercase =>'EUREKA' Apparently, MethodFinder does not find it in the last version. In a 10343, MethodFinder raises the evil error, but finds #asUppercase Alexandre > > > > On Aug 11, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Lawson English wrote: > >> StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >>>> BTW, some of us Second LIfe types are starting to play with >>>> Pharo/Seaside and various little issues keep popping up. I'm a >>>> total >>>> Smalltalk >>>> noob, but when I can't work through an example from the Squeak by >>>> Example book, that suggests there's some interesting features that >>>> should >>>> be looked at... >>>> >>> >>> A new version of SBE named pharo by example is under preparation. >>> Now do not hesitate to ask question even if you think that they look >>> silly. >>> Silly questions do not exist. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >> >> Great to hear. However, pharo gets upset by putting 'eureka'. >> 'EUREKA' >> into the method finder. >> >> Says that is EVIL. >> >> >> I gotta assume that that is just a simple bug, right, or is that >> facility no longer to be supported for some reason. >> >> >> L >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Draft streams proposal on the Wiki

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Miguel, First, thanks for reading it! I am certainly open to the breaking changes (Dolphin semantics) option, as it would put an end to silent failures. Waiting is fine, as there is nothing to stop me from using the additional protocol until we can make the changes. Anybody else? Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:31 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Draft streams proposal on the Wiki El miÃ©, 12-08-2009 a las 15:52 +0200, StÃ©phane Ducasse escribiÃ³: > > Stef, > > > > Please take a quick look at the StreamsForRobustSoftware page on the > > Wiki. It needs a lot of work, but any hints about how to make it > > meet your needs would be appreciated. I read your proposal and I think that we should go for the breaking changes option, but not for this first release. Respect to the Squeak incompatibility, Pharo tries to be better for the better and not care for incompatibilities. I think that this kind of problems should be solved from the root and not keeping adding workarounds because that means that never will be corrected/deleted from the code. -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex neurotic

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Ken, Your 1/2 example is hyperbole. As I said earlier, 0.5 and 1/2 are far more related (rationals being dense in the reals and all that) than are 1/2 and 0.5+0.0i. Complex numbers are inherently different from the magnitudes that we normally use, and I think you will come to agree if you think about the various coercions that would naturally follow from what you propose. A well-rounded package for complex numbers would be greatly appreciated, but I fear we would regret fully wiring it into the magnitude hierarchy. There are times when taking the square root of a negative number means the algorithm has gone wrong and an error is appropriate; other times getting a complex answer is business as usual. Demanding that the programmer use #asComplex to enter a closed system of complex numbers and associated operators solves the problem of deciding between the two worlds. Trying to do their thining for them will backfire. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Ken.Dickey Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:11 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex neurotic KenD> > Currently: > > > > -1 asComplex isNumber --> true > > ?1 asComplex isNumber -> true > > -1 asComplex < 1 asComplex --> error > > > > -4 sqrt --> error Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>> > and it should. > Not many people using a complex numbers. And -4 is an integer number, > not complex number (i hope this non-objectionable?). And sqrt function > is not defined for real/integer numbers < 0 ,and should lead to error, > period. > If you change this behavior, some of code will fail to work correctly > , definitely. > But you are free to use something like: > -4 asComplex sqrt So you prefer (1 asFraction / 2) -> 1/2 , where (1/2) gives an error because 1 and 2 are not fractions? (-1 sqrt) is the definition of 1i . Other dynamic languages I use [Scheme, Lisp] which define complex numbers all give square roots of negative numbers. I am trying to approach the Principle of Least Surprise here. Computers are very bad at math, but we have learned painfully to work around this. I would like pre-computer high school math to "just work". IEEE Floats only guarantee the wrong answer fast, IMHO. I would like square roots of negative numbers to work like they did before I got a computer! 8^) 8^O 8^{ Cheers, -KenD _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] right button still doesn't work on Windows

by Adrian Lienhard

Fixed is the correct state. It means that there exists a fix for the issue. It does not mean that the fix has been released. Latter state is named "Closed". Adrian On Aug 12, 2009, at 17:25 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> > wrote: > >> We need to change the startup list such that the InputEventSensor >> comes after OSPlatform. This can be done in InputEventSensor >> class>>initialize. Will do that in one of the next updates. >> > > Ok. Be aware that http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=838 > the status is fixed. I think we should put another state now until > this has > really been fixed. > > Best > > Mariano* > * > >> >> Adrian >> >> On Aug 12, 2009, at 15:26 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >> >>> 2009/8/12 Andrew Tween <amtween(a)hotmail.com> >>> >>>> Hi Mariano, >>>> You are not alone. >>>> I also get this problem on Windows (Vista) with >>>> Pharo1.0betaCore-10401. >>>> >>>> The cause of the problem is this... >>>> >>>> Both OSPlatform and InputEventSensor are in the Smalltalk >>>> StartUpList. >>>> It is ESSENTIAL that OSPlatform's startup code runs BEFORE >>>> InputEventSensor's startup code. >>>> >>>> This is because installMouseDecodeTable calls "Preferences >>>> swapMouseButtons", which in turn calls "OSPlatform current >>>> platformFamily". >>>> The OSPlatform startup code sets "OSPlatform Current" to a new >>>> instance >>>> representing the current platform. >>>> >>>> If InputEventSensor startup runs BEFORE OSPlatform's startup, then >>>> "OSPlatform current" will be an instance representing the Operating >>>> System >>>> on which the image was SAVED. (This explains why saving the image >>>> and >>>> restarting solves the problem) >>>> >>>> Try evaluating this in an image with the right mouse button not >>>> working... >>>> >>>> ((SystemDictionary classPool at: 'StartUpList') indexOf: >>>> #OSPlatform) < >>>> ((SystemDictionary classPool at: 'StartUpList') indexOf: >>>> #InputEventSensor). >>>> >>>> It should be true, but will evaluate to false. >>>> >>>> Now evaluate... >>>> >>>> OSPlatform initialize. >>>> ((SystemDictionary classPool at: 'StartUpList') indexOf: >>>> #OSPlatform) < >>>> ((SystemDictionary classPool at: 'StartUpList') indexOf: >>>> #InputEventSensor). >>>> >>>> It is now true - the startups are in the correct order. >>>> >>>> I guess that the solution is to build a new core image with the >>>> startup >>>> order repaired by evaluating "OSPlatform initialize." >>>> >>>> >>> >>> WOW! Nice debugging!! Thanks for the help. Now I wonder, where to >>> put that >>> "OSPlatform initialize." . This may be evaluated when an image is >>> generated? >>> >>> What about adding that in something like "ScriptLoader >>> cleanUpForRelease" ? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Mariano >>> >>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> "Mariano Martinez Peck" <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >>>> news:a38fadc50908111224p181c8408qd8c6161229bcae90@mail.gmail.com... >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Can you reproduce this with a fresh Pharo-core? >>>>> >>>>> It would be interesting to know whether the method is run at >>>>> startup >>>>> in your image. It is run as expected in my image (latest pharo- >>>>> core). >>>>> Could you add a halt in #installMouseDecodeTable save and restart >>>>> the >>>>> image? >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, I did that. Clean pharo beta core. The situation is this: >>>> >>>> When you first open the image, it doesn't work. However, if you >>>> save it >>>> (without doing nothing) and open it again, it start working (even >>>> when not >>>> evaluating InputEventSensor installMouseDecodeTable) >>>> >>>> I am alone? >>>> >>>> best, >>>> >>>> mariano >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Adrian >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 11, 2009, at 20:38 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Adrian Lienhard < >>>>> adi-cTM//Nd5/DIfv37vnLkPlQ(a)public.gmane.org <adi(a)netstyle.ch>> >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> What I don't understand is why InputEventSensor >>>>>>> installMouseDecodeTable would solve the problem because this >>>>>>> method >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> run at startup... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I really don't know, but works :( >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Adrian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 11, 2009, at 20:19 , Torsten Bergmann wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With Pharo beta, right button still doesn't work out of the >>>>>>>>> box >>>>>>>>> in Windows. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mariano, can you try the installer executable on >>>>>>>> http://pharo-project.org/pharo-download ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For me right button work out of the box on XP and Vista and the >>>>>>>> installer uses the same image as Damien provides on the >>>>>>>> download >>>>>>>> site. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bye >>>>>>>> Torsten >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla >>>>>>>> Firefox 3 - >>>>>>>> sicherer, schneller und einfacher! >>>>> http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> <Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> <Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo- >>>>>>> project >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> <Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> <Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org >>>>>> >>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo- >>>>> project >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Draft streams proposal on the Wiki

by Miguel Enrique CobÃ¡ Martinez

El miÃ©, 12-08-2009 a las 15:52 +0200, StÃ©phane Ducasse escribiÃ³: > > Stef, > > > > Please take a quick look at the StreamsForRobustSoftware page on the > > Wiki. It needs a lot of work, but any hints about how to make it > > meet your needs would be appreciated. I read your proposal and I think that we should go for the breaking changes option, but not for this first release. Respect to the Squeak incompatibility, Pharo tries to be better for the better and not care for incompatibilities. I think that this kind of problems should be solved from the root and not keeping adding workarounds because that means that never will be corrected/deleted from the code. -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] right button still doesn't work on Windows

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > We need to change the startup list such that the InputEventSensor > comes after OSPlatform. This can be done in InputEventSensor > class>>initialize. Will do that in one of the next updates. > Ok. Be aware that http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=838 the status is fixed. I think we should put another state now until this has really been fixed. Best Mariano* * > > Adrian > > On Aug 12, 2009, at 15:26 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > 2009/8/12 Andrew Tween <amtween(a)hotmail.com> > > > >> Hi Mariano, > >> You are not alone. > >> I also get this problem on Windows (Vista) with > >> Pharo1.0betaCore-10401. > >> > >> The cause of the problem is this... > >> > >> Both OSPlatform and InputEventSensor are in the Smalltalk > >> StartUpList. > >> It is ESSENTIAL that OSPlatform's startup code runs BEFORE > >> InputEventSensor's startup code. > >> > >> This is because installMouseDecodeTable calls "Preferences > >> swapMouseButtons", which in turn calls "OSPlatform current > >> platformFamily". > >> The OSPlatform startup code sets "OSPlatform Current" to a new > >> instance > >> representing the current platform. > >> > >> If InputEventSensor startup runs BEFORE OSPlatform's startup, then > >> "OSPlatform current" will be an instance representing the Operating > >> System > >> on which the image was SAVED. (This explains why saving the image and > >> restarting solves the problem) > >> > >> Try evaluating this in an image with the right mouse button not > >> working... > >> > >> ((SystemDictionary classPool at: 'StartUpList') indexOf: > >> #OSPlatform) < > >> ((SystemDictionary classPool at: 'StartUpList') indexOf: > >> #InputEventSensor). > >> > >> It should be true, but will evaluate to false. > >> > >> Now evaluate... > >> > >> OSPlatform initialize. > >> ((SystemDictionary classPool at: 'StartUpList') indexOf: > >> #OSPlatform) < > >> ((SystemDictionary classPool at: 'StartUpList') indexOf: > >> #InputEventSensor). > >> > >> It is now true - the startups are in the correct order. > >> > >> I guess that the solution is to build a new core image with the > >> startup > >> order repaired by evaluating "OSPlatform initialize." > >> > >> > > > > WOW! Nice debugging!! Thanks for the help. Now I wonder, where to > > put that > > "OSPlatform initialize." . This may be evaluated when an image is > > generated? > > > > What about adding that in something like "ScriptLoader > > cleanUpForRelease" ? > > > > Best, > > > > Mariano > > > > > >> Cheers, > >> Andy > >> > >> "Mariano Martinez Peck" <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > >> news:a38fadc50908111224p181c8408qd8c6161229bcae90@mail.gmail.com... > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Can you reproduce this with a fresh Pharo-core? > >>> > >>> It would be interesting to know whether the method is run at startup > >>> in your image. It is run as expected in my image (latest pharo- > >>> core). > >>> Could you add a halt in #installMouseDecodeTable save and restart > >>> the > >>> image? > >> > >> > >> Yes, I did that. Clean pharo beta core. The situation is this: > >> > >> When you first open the image, it doesn't work. However, if you > >> save it > >> (without doing nothing) and open it again, it start working (even > >> when not > >> evaluating InputEventSensor installMouseDecodeTable) > >> > >> I am alone? > >> > >> best, > >> > >> mariano > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Adrian > >>> > >>> On Aug 11, 2009, at 20:38 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Adrian Lienhard < > >>> adi-cTM//Nd5/DIfv37vnLkPlQ(a)public.gmane.org <adi(a)netstyle.ch>> > >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> What I don't understand is why InputEventSensor > >>>>> installMouseDecodeTable would solve the problem because this > >>>>> method > >>>>> is > >>>>> run at startup... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I really don't know, but works :( > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Adrian > >>>>> > >>>>> On Aug 11, 2009, at 20:19 , Torsten Bergmann wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>> With Pharo beta, right button still doesn't work out of the box > >>>>>>> in Windows. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mariano, can you try the installer executable on > >>>>>> http://pharo-project.org/pharo-download ? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> For me right button work out of the box on XP and Vista and the > >>>>>> installer uses the same image as Damien provides on the download > >>>>>> site. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Bye > >>>>>> Torsten > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla > >>>>>> Firefox 3 - > >>>>>> sicherer, schneller und einfacher! > >>> http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Pharo-project mailing list > >>>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > <Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Pharo-project mailing list > >>>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > <Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org > >>>>> > > >>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo- > >>>>> project > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Pharo-project mailing list > >>>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > <Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org > >>>> > > >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Pharo-project mailing list > >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > <Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org > >>> > > >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >>> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex neurotic

by Ken.Dickey

KenD> > Currently: > > > > -1 asComplex isNumber --> true > > ?1 asComplex isNumber -> true > > -1 asComplex < 1 asComplex --> error > > > > -4 sqrt --> error Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>> > and it should. > Not many people using a complex numbers. And -4 is an integer number, > not complex number (i hope this non-objectionable?). And sqrt function > is not defined for real/integer numbers < 0 ,and should lead to error, > period. > If you change this behavior, some of code will fail to work correctly > , definitely. > But you are free to use something like: > -4 asComplex sqrt So you prefer (1 asFraction / 2) -> 1/2 , where (1/2) gives an error because 1 and 2 are not fractions? (-1 sqrt) is the definition of 1i . Other dynamic languages I use [Scheme, Lisp] which define complex numbers all give square roots of negative numbers. I am trying to approach the Principle of Least Surprise here. Computers are very bad at math, but we have learned painfully to work around this. I would like pre-computer high school math to "just work". IEEE Floats only guarantee the wrong answer fast, IMHO. I would like square roots of negative numbers to work like they did before I got a computer! 8^) 8^O 8^{ Cheers, -KenD

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex neurotic

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Ken, The desired behavior appears to be that -1 sqrt raises an error regardless of the complex package; -1 asComplex sqrt works when the package is installed. Sig, is that a fair statement of your position? Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Ken.Dickey Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:59 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Complex neurotic St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > What I would love is the following: that we get a good Complex package! > Since we can do method extensions in Smalltalk we can design a really > nice Complex > packages with its own tests. > We could publish for now Complex into PharoTaskForces or create a > PharoExternalPackages or whatever. If you point me to the package docs, I am happy to make a package. Note that the Complex cuts across a number of classes [Point,Float,Number,Object]. Is the desired behavior that (-1 sqrt) raise and exception when the Complex package is not loaded but return 1i when loaded? I presume that we could simply add the hyperbolic trig functions (and some tests) to Float? -KenD _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Aug. 12, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Complex neurotic

by Ken.Dickey

St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > What I would love is the following: that we get a good Complex package! > Since we can do method extensions in Smalltalk we can design a really > nice Complex > packages with its own tests. > We could publish for now Complex into PharoTaskForces or create a > PharoExternalPackages or whatever. If you point me to the package docs, I am happy to make a package. Note that the Complex cuts across a number of classes [Point,Float,Number,Object]. Is the desired behavior that (-1 sqrt) raise and exception when the Complex package is not loaded but return 1i when loaded? I presume that we could simply add the hyperbolic trig functions (and some tests) to Float? -KenD

Aug. 12, 2009